deskthority

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/7/6882427/king-of-keys

Even with a fancy music video.

Funny, how the Model M has that reputation.









Whenever you hear about Model M global supremacy, it's like the Model F and other even better keyboards never existed…



Hmm, why do I smell coffee?

Dunno what's worse: Model M or yet another phone vs old computer comparison. That's just kind of a "no shit" saying as of course it's faster, it's been 30 years.

Muirium wrote: ↑Whenever you hear about Model M global supremacy, it's like the Model F and other even better keyboards never existed…

That's like the "History of the Personal Computer" saying it all started with the Apple 1 or the "History of the GUI" not mentioning the Amiga. We're now at the point where the people writing these kind of articles weren't even born in the 80's, so have no idea of how things actually were. They do half-assed research and fall into "it was Apple first, then IBM & Microsoft copied but Steve Jobs kept innovating" simplistic computer history.

I really think that anybody attempting to write accurately about computer history should at least skim every BYTE magazine from 1975 to 1990.

Correct answers: MITS and Xerox.

Since (a) they went to visit the clickykeyboards.com guy, who mainly sells Model Ms, and (b) their discussion is focused on how influential the keyboard is, noting that the Model M’s 101-key layout basically set the standard up through the present, ~30 years later, I think their attention-grabber “king of keyboards” framing is fine. There were probably at least an order of magnitude more Model Ms produced than Model Fs or earlier IBM keyboards. The goal is clearly not to be a comprehensive history of computer keyboards.

Sad they didn’t spend any time talking about Selectric typewriters though. :p

jacobolus wrote: ↑The goal is clearly not to be a comprehensive history of computer keyboards.

I know. I was just going off on a semi-related rant.

The great thing about Model M's is the layout, and that's why they're more popular than XT or beam spring keyboards with for lot's of people strange layouts.

A little tricky to use Ms on operating systems with more mods than just Control and Alt, though. I find Model Fs better, especially the Kishsaver, in that regard. The Model M layout is of course a classic, and not as mod deprived as many beamsprings and other vintage keyboards, but it's far from perfect.

I'll never forgive the Model M for promoting Caps Lock!

Muirium wrote: ↑I'll never forgive the Model M for promoting Caps Lock!

It's for me just fascinating that almost 30 year old keyboards have the same layout in general; and maybe that's why Model M's are - you can definitely say - the mother of all modern keyboards.

For the record, I did show the reporter various other precursors to the IBM model M. The entire interview process went for 4 hours back in the second week of September.

Unfortunately while I had an original IBM wheelwriter typewriter and IBM 3270 keyboards handy, I did not get to show them each and every keyboard of the 200+ keyboards of the "permanent collection"

They had also mentioned that they were going to contact others for the story like those on Boca Raton development team and they might have located Richard Hunter Harris (patent inventor of buckling-spring) http://deskthority.net/wiki/Buckling_spring. I also gave contact info of other IBM collectors from the forums, but I don't know if they were ultimately contacted.

My guess is that all the research and interview materials were edited for clear, concise copy suitable for web publication to suit a specific deadline.

Was an interesting experience and happy to have a part in increasing interest in our collective hobby.

I'm sure you gave them the motherlode of all known IBM info, Clicky. My own "permanent" collection is just a dozen or so, from beamspring to M2.

The thing I wonder is: how and when did the Model M get the reputation of being the the finest mech in the world? I've only been into keyboards a few years, but the Model M was one I heard of before arrival. It's a celebrity among boards, for sure, but one with the seemingly universal reputation of being top dog. You know you're talking to a real keyboard aficionado when they can name something, anything, better!

Yeah, I've also heard that M is best of the best for as long as I can remember as well, stories of people using them back in the 80s to people tripping balls over the clickiness.

My guess is the legendary status of the model M keyboard has to do with the established reputation of IBM and the vast numbers of IBM personal system/2 computers (millions?) that were sold at the beginning of the PERSONAL computer revolution in the 1980s.

I've tried to contact IBM PR and IBM historians to request more info.. but I guess the modern IBM has other priorities.

Certainly there are other examples of great keyboards like the Northgate, Compaq, and Zenith keyboards.. but I don't think that they ever sold more than a few 10,000+ units.

In terms of pure numbers, the Apple Extended II has a fair old following as well. It must have sold a few million during the years it (and the first one) were available, bundled with new Macs. You could be right: the more people that owned them new, the more the reputation today.

A Richard Hunter interview would be great!

By the way, found right now Webwit's Model M simulator

Muirium wrote: ↑In terms of pure numbers, the Apple Extended II has a fair old following as well. It must have sold a few million during the years it (and the first one) were available, bundled with new Macs. You could be right: the more people that owned them new, the more the reputation today.

I never understood why people focused on the AEK II rather than the superior original AEK. It must have something to do with numbers sold. The original AEK was an option on the über expensive Mac II, while the AEK II was sold with the much less expensive (and more common) LC models.

Another data point for Clicky's theory: the more people used it when new, the better its reputation! Argh, subjectivity!

I don't support that theory. No one cared about keyboards, and no one missed the quality keyboards when they were pushed out the market beginning of the 90ties. We were worried about cpu speed, graphics, hard disk size etc. There was no reputation.

I think it's more subtle than that. The memory of those keyboards, triggered by later contact with the awful realisation modern keyboards are turds, is what adds up to a reputation. People don't seem to pine for Model Fs and other boards they never touched. And people too young to have ever typed on buckling spring, MX or Alps in the day, don't tend pine for old keyboards at all; until they bump into us!

I think the good reputation of Model M's among computer enthusiasts started long time before the term mechanical keyboards was a special category of keyboards.

Just search for example from 1996 to 2001 for 'IBM Model M' and you'll find lot's of threads in mostly computer forums. You'll find modification articles, repair options, tweaking stuff of M's. It was all the time the other keyboard beside cheap plastic ones you could use. It was all the time available, and all the time used - and that's why it's the most popular one (even if there are of course better ones from IBM). It was just the first vintage keyboard to be used by lots of people around the world.

webwit wrote: ↑I don't support that theory. No one cared about keyboards, and no one missed the quality keyboards when they were pushed out the market beginning of the 90ties. We were worried about cpu speed, graphics, hard disk size etc. There was no reputation.

It started later, in the mid to the end of the 90s, i think, to use quality keybords. Then the Model M was used again.

"Good design is timeless" - IBM

http://instagram.com/p/rHru9wPhiI/

Muirium wrote: ↑In terms of pure numbers, the Apple Extended II has a fair old following as well. It must have sold a few million during the years it (and the first one) were available, bundled with new Macs. You could be right: the more people that owned them new, the more the reputation today.

Stock, I do not like the AEKII dampened cream ALPS. They feel mushy. I don't understand the hype. After a mod to remove the rubber dampers and converting the leaf to a clicky leaf, the AEKII is much better.

mr_a500 wrote: ↑

Muirium wrote: ↑In terms of pure numbers, the Apple Extended II has a fair old following as well. It must have sold a few million during the years it (and the first one) were available, bundled with new Macs. You could be right: the more people that owned them new, the more the reputation today.

I never understood why people focused on the AEK II rather than the superior original AEK. It must have something to do with numbers sold. The original AEK was an option on the über expensive Mac II, while the AEK II was sold with the much less expensive (and more common) LC models.

There were an order of magnitude more AEK IIs sold than M0115s: Macintosh sales grew dramatically between 1988 and 1994 or whenever AEK IIs ended, and the AEK IIs were also for sale for several years longer. A lot of people never tried an M0115 or M0116, but had AEK IIs and liked them much better than their later keyboards.

The AEK II also has an arguably more solid case, and definitely has nicer keycaps. I can also see the attraction for people in relatively quiet communal offices. I agree that Alps switches were better in 1988–89 than in 1992 though.

ShawnMeg wrote: ↑Stock, I do not like the AEKII dampened cream ALPS. They feel mushy. I don't understand the hype. After a mod to remove the rubber dampers and converting the leaf to a clicky leaf, the AEKII is much better.

The rubber dampers are okay, but between the lack of crispness in the tactile leaf (compared to e.g. Matias quiet switches), the just-a-bit-too-stiff spring, the less/worse lubed slider, and the short rather than tall switchplate (makes the switch sound less satisfying, and I think negatively affects the feel), cream Alps are definitely not perfect.

If you leave the dampers in but put in a crisp clicky click leaf (e.g. from a good-condition white Alps switch) and a lighter spring, and especially if you add some krytox or similar to the slider, you get a very nice switch. Using tall rather than short switchplates would also be possible, but requires clipping some plastic from the inside of every switch to accommodate it, and cannibalizing some nice older Alps switches (green, blue, ivory, orange, amber, or brown ones), so probably isn’t worth the relatively minor effect.

jacobolus wrote: ↑The AEK II also has an arguably more solid case, and definitely has nicer keycaps.

What? I've got 4 original AEK and 2 AEK II and from what I see, the original case is far more solid. If I twist an AEK case, there isn't much flex but twist an AEK II and you hear creaking and snapping (just tested again now). It feels much flimsier. I don't see any difference in keycaps. They look identical to me. In fact, the only reason I still keep the 2 AEK II keyboards is in case I need spare keycaps for the other keyboards.

jacobolus wrote: ↑There were an order of magnitude more AEK IIs sold than M0115s: Macintosh sales grew dramatically between 1988 and 1994 or whenever AEK IIs ended, and the AEK IIs were also for sale for several years longer. A lot of people never tried an M0115 or M0116, but had AEK IIs and liked them much better than their later keyboards.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Certainly more people used the AEK II than the original.

The AEK II is one of my flimsiest boards. But people don't let objectivity get in the way of a reputation.

Also, many people who have fond memories of the AEK2 are firmly in the Apple ecosystem, and therefore, literally every keyboard they compare it to is a mediocre rubber dome.

Very true. Matias aims specifically for that demographic: full time Mac users who want better than a dome. It's not immediately obvious that regular PC keyboards even work on Macs (and it certainly wasn't so before USB!) so there's a conceptual divide just like you describe.

In fact, Matias even bills his boards as revivals of the AEK II.

That's like the "History of the Personal Computer" saying it all started with the Apple 1 or the "History of the GUI" not mentioning the Amiga. We're now at the point where the people writing these kind of articles weren't even born in the 80's, so have no idea of how things actually were. They do half-assed research and fall into "it was Apple first, then IBM & Microsoft copied but Steve Jobs kept innovating" simplistic computer history.

exactly.Very well put.Of course the M is allways good for a "legendary keyboard" status article.In terms of Production volume there is probably some truth to that.At least they have a picture of a SSK in there.

But the keyboard’s descendents have jettisoned one of the Model M’s most iconic features — "buckling springs," a key system introduced in the PC / XT.

of course they probably don´t know the difference between buckling spring over membrane vs. buckling spring over capacitive contact, makes it sound like it´s all the same! Morons!

seebart wrote: ↑

But the keyboard’s descendents have jettisoned one of the Model M’s most iconic features — "buckling springs," a key system introduced in the PC / XT.

of course they probably don´t know the difference between buckling spring over membrane vs. buckling spring over capacitive contact, makes it sound like it´s all the same! Morons!

Yes, but it's The Verge, so you have to allow for lack of brains/research/verisimilitude. (I often feel my IQ dropping when I read Verge articles. Then I have to pull out the old Byte magazines for a restorative pause.)

On the bright side, if anyone here wants to write an article, beam spring and Model Fs are low-hanging fruit for a great Model M story -- "but did you know that the Model M isn't the best keyboard ever <dramatic pause>: there's an Emperor of Click, the forefather, the ancestor..."