deskthority

Hi fellows,

This is my first post, so let me introduce myself and tell my story.

I've always found the human interface to a computer (screen and all input devices) very important aspects of the work environment (which is why, when considering a laptop purchase, Thinkpad is the only brand I look at). I started with a Keytronic rubber dome when I built my first x86 at the time when Cherrys were advertised to be the next big thing, though they never appealed to me back then. After aquiring some wrist pain at university, I first bought a Wacom tablet with pen that gives me a very different grip than the standard mouse, then a trackball (which I still use, both at home and at work).

After recently getting sick of the rubber domes I've been using at work for years, I decided to torture my colleagues and place my good old 1987 Model M on the desk (with a fork lift). That experiment didn't last long, though rather than the other guys fleeing the office and leaving me all the space for myself, it was me who had to move the Model M back to after-work duty at home.

That made me read up a bit on less-deafening alternatives, discovering HHKB and Topre in general. I've got the chance of trying a Novatough TKL right now, which I'm currently getting used to, and so far it feels OK. I've also remapped the keyboard so that I can try the main part of the layout of the HHKB Pro2 (navigation and F keys), which I became immediately familiar with. It's amazing that in a heartbeat, I realized that my trackball now seems just too far away if the numpad or the dedicated navigation sector are the way.

This is how I gather that a HHKB would be just the right thing for me. If it were available in Europe without importing it from Japan, and just very slightly less expensive, I would have pulled the trigger already. However, I still feel that something in my pseudo-HHKB-configured Novatouch is not quite right. I get the impression that a HHKB in two halves, essentially making it an "ergonomic" keyboard, would be ideal.

So: is there anything available that is effectively a HHKB but in two parts that can be arranged at an angle, or with a curved layout in the first place? Or has anyone tried to modify a HHKB to make one?

Are there any plans for an HHKB3, maybe with an ergonomic geometry? This is really the only thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger on an import HHKB2 right now: for that kind of dough, I'd like it to be perfect, or at least as close as it gets.

Or is the HHKB already perfect as it is, and am I overrating the straight geometry and the much-talked-about wrist strain that it can cause?

Thanks,

ħ

Welcome to DT hbar! I don't think there are plans for a Ergonomic version of HHKB Pro2. But I am not the one to ask. Whatever is perceived as "perfect" is relative to your needs and preferences! Now your "ħ" sig I like.

Have a lookout for posts from our member Zensuji in our marketplace and you may find a HHKB2. He's in the UK.

You mean like this?



The [wiki]μTRON[/wiki] is the only split ergo keyboard in the world with Topre switches. I've ever so briefly played with one at a keyboard meetup. But I've pined after one for much longer! This is my next unicorn keyboard, after I finally got my HHKB.

Trouble is, the μTRON is really, really expensive. And not quite the tiny 30+30% that you say you're looking for. It's a smallish board, but not a tiny one like the HHKB.

How much do you like Topre switches? Because they're the limiting factor in your choices. If you can slum it with MX or Alps, all sorts of boards and projects open up. But if you're a snob, like me, you'll be best off with the HHKB. I love that little board. I've a load of different kinds now and it's my favourite.

No need to wonder if Topre is about to launch a split model, by the way. I'm sure the μTRON is all they intend to make in the ergo realm. Ergo boards just don't sell well enough to get the manufacturer interest they morally, if not financially, deserve. I was "holding out" for a Bluetooth HHKB Pro 3, but the years rolled by and I'm happy that I sprang for the current model instead! Topre the company is not exactly renowned for its speed.

Hmm I didn't know you are a snob Mu! A topre snob? The things one learns in these threads...

I do mention it from time to time.

http://deskthority.net/search.php?keywo ... mit=Search

Those gritty Matias switches are my main gripe about the Ergo Pro. Which I will finish writing up this week I promise! In fact, as I've got an old iPhone now I'll try a video since you kids like that these days. Might help me come to conclusions.

Thanks for the replies. I do realize that my choice of Topre switches limits the options quite considerably. When you say alternative switches, such as MX and ALPS, where would you start looking? As you've probably gathered, I rather like buckling springs (unlike anyone within a radius of 10m) and think (after just a short period) that Topre is a very close second, so which MX or ALPS switch would disappoint me least? In the mid-90s, I didn't like the most popular (linear) Cherrys of the time, but that doesn't mean today's MX aren't worth a look. I'm thinking of getting an MX board to try for a couple of weaks just to find out where my preference lies.

Also, is MX or ALPS easier to obtain? And how about keycaps?

I've just discovered Ergodox (is there anything else out there I'm not yet aware of that could be interesting?), but I'm not sure I could adapt to some of the non-standard layout choices there, especially as I will be forced to use regular ISO and sometimes ANSI layouts from time to time (such as in meetings, when I only have the laptop with me without an external keyboard). So what I'm really looking for is a two-part HHKB.

ħ

MX is much more prevalent in new keyboards. Especially if you want to customise your caps. Sadly, if you don't like linear MX, you could be in for disappointment. I like buckling spring as well, and clicky MX is just no comparison. It's too high pitched and gritty feeling.

Alps, hmm. Some of the very quietest mechs are Alps. I've got a split ergo Matias Ergo Pro on loan and it's impressively quiet. More so than even my fancy HHKB Type-S. I don't like its feel though. The switches are, again, gritty compared to the two I really like: IBM and Topre. But if you can get past that there is much to commend the Matias. It has a conservative "split down the middle" layout much like you describe. Could be worth a look. I'll have my review posted soon.

I've just ordered three G80s (blue, brown, red) and will try them all, then return them. Waiting to see them in the flesh.

My mind keeps spinning in circles now: HHKB, modified BS, custom build, etc. Why on Earth did I find this forum in the first place?

ħ

You're not in the deep end until you wait a few years for a big box of caps from 7bit! (Hopefully mine arrives today…)

Cherry boards aren't generally as solid feeling as most others with those switches. The G80-3000 I have is PCB mount. Which makes it refreshingly light and alarmingly flimsy! Their stabilisers (the levelling mechanisms under large keys) are generally mushy too, but can be clipped to feel better.

Anyway, good luck with the test. MX in all its varieties is very different from buckling spring.

hbar wrote:My mind keeps spinning in circles now: HHKB, modified BS, custom build, etc. Why on Earth did I find this forum in the first place?

ħ

That's just the beginning...

Three brand new G80s are now in for testing, all are plate-mounted, will test them. The goal is to identify a switch for use with an ergonomic layout (Ergodoc or similar) for figuring out whether the layout is of any use to me. I don't think red MX has any chance under my fingers, so it's weird blue against gritty brown at the moment, the latter of which I'm currently typing on. It turns out that I even have a vintage black MX board (Wyse) in my collection, which weighs about the same as two Cherry boards put together...

I can now positively confirm that Topre and BS are in an entirely different leage. It's such a shame that neither is as versatile for custom builds as MX is. That said, my old Keytronic rubber domes appear to be closer in feel to Topre than any of the MXs.

I'm leaning away from reds as my favourite in the family, towards MX black actually. Typing on a PCB mounted set of them just now. They're a less scratchy feeling, less bottom-outy, brother to MX red. Reds are intended for button mashing gamers. While these are the whole MX line's ancestor.

Yeah, I'm not convincing myself either. Whatever they have going for them, these just aren't a match for Topre or IBM. To embrace them is to accept compromise.

Muirium wrote: ↑I'm leaning away from reds as my favourite in the family, towards MX black actually. Typing on a PCB mounted set of them just now. They're a less scratchy feeling, less bottom-outy, brother to MX red. Reds are intended for button mashing gamers. While these are the whole MX line's ancestor.

Yeah, I'm not convincing myself either. Whatever they have going for them, these just aren't a match for Topre or IBM. To embrace them is to accept compromise.

Told you so! Next you'll think "hmm, but maybe if this was a little lighter... no, but not as light as an MX red." I'll ship you some spare springs if you want proof...

DanielT already hooked me up with the Koreans. That's why this board is PCB mount!

Perfect! What weight? I've got a G80-1800 with 62g, and a FaceW 60% with 55g. I like them both very much. 50g was a bit too light for me.

I'm playing around with layouts a little, and I can't figure out a few things. Maybe those with a real HHKB can help:

1. Is the single Ctrl key on the HHKB not a problem? Do you miss those "palm-actuated" Ctrl keys? Do you miss a right Ctrl key?

2. What exactly is Meta for if Alt is also present? I use Alt and Meta interchangeably, but also Compose (which is missing on HHKB). Would I gain anything if I were to have all three, Alt, Meta, and Compose?

Thanks,

ħ

Always helps to have a picture:



Bear in mind that I use the HHKB on the Mac. I've never even plugged mine into anything else. You'll need other people's input for their platforms.

1a. No. Control is the least most used modifier key on Macs. We use Command for most of its duties instead. And I'd much rather have a relatively harmless key like Control in that prime position next to A than evil Caps Lock.

1b. No. I don't press Control with my palm, even on keyboards where it's there in the corner. Simply don't need it often, especially by itself. Most Control use for me is in conjunction with other mods, so requires a chord of fingers. Perhaps if I were on Windows, though…

1c. No, not much. I hardly touch right Control. Most of its use is on my larger keyboards, where I often switch between spaces (virtual desktops) on OS X vith Control + Left/Right arrows which lie right beside it so can be done one handed. On the HHKB, those arrows are on the function layer instead, so I lose nothing.

2. By Meta, you mean the diamonds? On my platform both those keys beside the spacebar are Command, as they should be. The Mac's main mod. So I use them a lot. The HHKB feels very natural on the Mac, which isn't surprising given its heritage.

Thanks, Mu. How about non-Mac users of the HHKB? Linux/UNIX anyone?

I've found the "ANSI" HHKB [Pro] layout horrible and stupid beyond recognition. The Fn layer is dumb and asymmetry awful. Obviously, it's straight, non-split on top of that.

Let's start with the Fn layer. Actually, let's start with the asymmetry. IIRC there's one Fn (next to the right Shift), one Control (next to A), one Alt, one AltGr and only a pair of symmetrical Super keys (and obviously Shift keys). Bottom corners are empty, thus you can't really press anything with your palm/pinkie edge; the spacebar is wide, thus you can't press the outer bottom-row modifiers with your thumbs either (well, at least I can't without discomfort), and even the inner pair is a bit too far. Therefore, it isn't really possible to keep fingers on the home row all the time, and the hands have to move around for almost every chord. Now the actual chords—how do I press…

• Ctrl-B (back one character in Emacs or bash)? My palm is unnecessarily spread, or maybe I could use non-standard fingering…
• Alt-X (execute in Emacs) with AltGr instead of two Alt keys? I move the whole hand backwards, or curl my thumb unnaturally.
• Ctrl-Alt-Esc (kill window in KWin)? My pinkie below the ring finger, or I'm moving the whole hand to use the three strongest fingers.
• Ctrl-Alt-F6 (jump to tty6)? It's actually Ctrl-Alt-Fn-6. I have no fucking idea how to press that. I'm trying it right now on a HHKB and my hands are monstrously contorted. Hell, I'm not even sure how to press simply F12 (drop-down terminal emulator on my system) without a symmetrical Fn key on the other side of the keyboard.
• arrows? I know, I move my pinkie to Fn, rotate the whole arm and control left/down with my index finger and up/right with the middle finger. Meanwhile, arrows on IJKL or ESDF with symmetrical Fn keys wouldn't force me to leave the home row at all.
• …

I'm a heavy user of GNU Emacs, bash and layers with extra characters (AltGr at the very least), and this keyboard is a nightmare. The only good thing about it is the Backspace placement on ANSI backslash.

Obligatory EHMAGERD ERGODOX!

I've had the complete opposite experience to davkol. I'm a big Vim user, so I use much fewer mod-heavy keyboard shortcuts. I don't find the Fn layer problematic at all, in fact I quite like it. My hands are big enough to hit Fn easily enough without moving them much, if at all. Then again, I am a former bass guitarist so perhaps I'm just more used to finger contortion.

hbar - I do usually use my HHKB with Linux. I'll do my best to answer your questions:

hbar wrote: ↑1. Is the single Ctrl key on the HHKB not a problem? Do you miss those "palm-actuated" Ctrl keys? Do you miss a right Ctrl key?

2. What exactly is Meta for if Alt is also present? I use Alt and Meta interchangeably, but also Compose (which is missing on HHKB). Would I gain anything if I were to have all three, Alt, Meta, and Compose?

1. I don't find it a problem at all. Using Ctrl with my pinky is quite comfortable. I don't find myself looking for right Ctrl when using it.

2. I use Meta and Alt interchangeably too. I don't use compose at all, but I can test anything that you might want.

hbar wrote: ↑1. Is the single Ctrl key on the HHKB not a problem? Do you miss those "palm-actuated" Ctrl keys? Do you miss a right Ctrl key?

2. What exactly is Meta for if Alt is also present? I use Alt and Meta interchangeably, but also Compose (which is missing on HHKB). Would I gain anything if I were to have all three, Alt, Meta, and Compose?

Whats wrong with using the right alt (or meta) key as compose key?
I've had the right alt mapped to compose pretty much since day 1 with my HHKB.

I guess it really depends how you type. Some people never use the right Shift (or Ctrl) and don't use layers. Most people don't touch type either or don't use the standard, kinda symmetrical fingering. HHKB might be alright to a certain extent, but there's no way I'd go back to that, considering I know better nowadays (hehe).

davkol wrote: ↑I've found the "ANSI" HHKB [Pro] layout horrible and stupid beyond recognition. The Fn layer is dumb and asymmetry awful. Obviously, it's straight, non-split on top of that.

Let's start with the Fn layer. Actually, let's start with the asymmetry. IIRC there's one Fn (next to the right Shift), one Control (next to A), one Alt, one AltGr and only a pair of symmetrical Super keys (and obviously Shift keys). Bottom corners are empty, thus you can't really press anything with your palm/pinkie edge; the spacebar is wide, thus you can't press the outer bottom-row modifiers with your thumbs either (well, at least I can't without discomfort), and even the inner pair is a bit too far. Therefore, it isn't really possible to keep fingers on the home row all the time, and the hands have to move around for almost every chord. Now the actual chords—how do I press…

• Ctrl-B (back one character in Emacs or bash)? My palm is unnecessarily spread, or maybe I could use non-standard fingering…
• Alt-X (execute in Emacs) with AltGr instead of two Alt keys? I move the whole hand backwards, or curl my thumb unnaturally.
• Ctrl-Alt-Esc (kill window in KWin)? My pinkie below the ring finger, or I'm moving the whole hand to use the three strongest fingers.
• Ctrl-Alt-F6 (jump to tty6)? It's actually Ctrl-Alt-Fn-6. I have no fucking idea how to press that. I'm trying it right now on a HHKB and my hands are monstrously contorted. Hell, I'm not even sure how to press simply F12 (drop-down terminal emulator on my system) without a symmetrical Fn key on the other side of the keyboard.
• arrows? I know, I move my pinkie to Fn, rotate the whole arm and control left/down with my index finger and up/right with the middle finger. Meanwhile, arrows on IJKL or ESDF with symmetrical Fn keys wouldn't force me to leave the home row at all.
• …

I'm a heavy user of GNU Emacs, bash and layers with extra characters (AltGr at the very least), and this keyboard is a nightmare. The only good thing about it is the Backspace placement on ANSI backslash.

Obligatory EHMAGERD ERGODOX!

What a good review of HHKB! I really agree. My conclusion: No Mac, no HHKB

Obviously you're doing it wrong. The HHKB was designed by a hardcore Emacs fanboy. He didn't even include the layer in his design, because why would you need it? That was an addition by PFU.

Oh, really? Best function layer ever. Whoever came up with it deserves credit. And here I've been bowing to the Professor all this time. I'd have trouble using the HHKB without that. Seems so crucial to its design…

I just became so fed up with the red, brown, and blue MXs that I ordered a HHKB Pro2 just to try it. After all, resale value should be quite decent if I decide not to keep it...

ħ

Actually I might be wrong, I read that somewhere else, but can't find the source. I can find this, which suggests he also did the layer, but my sanskrit is weak.
http://member.wide.ad.jp/~wada/bit.hhkbd/hhkbd.html

Webwit, I'm not sure what you're seeing, but that looks more like APL to me

Try setting your browser to Shift+JIS. Another Japanese specialty!

In any case, Mu, I've seen the light: MX brown is gritty, blue is rubbish, red constantly bottoms out and causes more pain than green and blue put together, and black is smooth but rather tough to press. If I had to pick one I'd go for black, or maybe black with those Korean springs...

I'm surprised that I find MX blue much tougher on the ears than a BS when typing, but my colleagues feel the other way around. Must be the desk resonating under the BS...