The decent keyboard layout discussion thread matrix

[off]

Yes, and I'd do it again. Launching two marginally useful applications doesn't count, does it?

Please refrain from utilizing twisted logicTM
I only asked about PrintScreen, and I haven't heard of anyone launching applications with that; do tell if I'm misinformed there.
Launching what apps with which key are you talking about anyway?

PrintScreen: supremely USEful, imho.
PauseBreak: almost useless, but not fully, since in some situations it is 'the only way'; i.e. during P.O.S.T.
ScrollLock: used often by applications requiring a toggle with indicator, since 'everyone knows' it doesn't have any other uses these days.



Now, in general, I was seriously hoping for more ErgoDox+ enthusiast chiming in, seeing how they will need to deal with 'these issues'.

[Djuzuh]

I'll let it happen.

If I once have a custom kb without specific keys, and I need those keys, then I'll deal with those problem :p. No point going crazy over this eventuality before.

And worst case scenario, I change my kb :p.

[off]

nononoonah, I meant, the ErgoDox' layout is not finalised; the key locations are, but the meaning of those keys are not.... so someone will have to spend some time on that!
Ofcourse Dox probably already has spent boatloads on that, but he shouldn't be the only one.

[Djuzuh]

Ergodox is fully programmable, and they are creating a GUI to do so.

So everybody can map his key where he wants .

[Icarium]

Hm..
I'm not saying these should be banned. I'm just saying I use them so rarely I could plug in another board for those occasions and it wouldn't be much of a bother. So as far as I am concerned they can disappear into the 15th layer and require 7 fingers to press.

[off]

Ergodox is fully programmable, and they are creating a GUI to do so. So everybody can map his key where he wants .

Which meeeeeans.... that you ARE gonna have to put some fskcing thought into this issue right here!

I'm not saying these should be banned. I'm just saying I use them so rarely
they can disappear into the 15th layer and require 7 fingers to press.

You don't PrtSc?
Agree that they don't have to have top positions at all, but most of those need to be pressable together with alt/ctrl/shift to be useful; imho they do need to be available.

[suka]

Towards the center meaning between the two halves and not the center of each half I take it

Correct - but just to make sure I typed for a while with a flat setup, and rotating the halves a little (pushing the outsides about 1 or 2cm further away from me) it was also comfortable.

So about that MacroMode key... that makes it seem to me that it is a key you hit only to actually program a macro, not to run one, correct? Then where do the runnable macros end up at (what mode of execution do you have for them)?
Also, what does R3 do?

The macros come from Teensys eeprom where they are currently stored by a separate program, and replayed with MacroMode+key, I mainly use it for random password strings or to auto-logon to windows by also replaying Ctrl-Alt-Del before part of the longer pw. Prior to switching to Pentatdactyl I also utilized things like copy text - new tab - paste - return, for example, but the dedicated keyboard mode is far superior. Since I obviously posted an older layout above I'll try to display it again, but without the staggering - I definately need to find a better display program, but hopes this serves its purpose

Code: Select all

----- Thumb & MKT ----
                        Macro    TP
                        -        -
LShft LAlt LCtrl Space                  Mod1 Mod3 AltGr Fx
 -     Esc  Tab  Space                  BkSp Ret  -     - 
                        LWin     Mod2
                        -        -

------ Layer 0 & Mod1 ( letters shifted)
K  U  Q  .: J     V  G  C  L  F
H  I  E  A  O     D  T  R  N  S
X  Y  -_ ,; /\    B  P  W  M  Z

----- M2 / special ---
@ _ [ ] #   ! < > = & 
\ / { } *   ? ( ) + :
  $ | ~ `   ^ % " '

----- M3 / MoveNum ---
PgUp BkSp  Up  Del  PgDo   ß 7 8 9 ä Ä
Pos1 Left Down Righ End    . 4 5 6 ö Ö
Esc  Tab  Ins  Ret  Undo   0 1 2 3 ü Ü

As you can see plenty of keys are not in use yet or duplicates, so 2x5x3 keys x4 layers is already plenty, not even considering the thumbrow nor the outer columns.

[Djuzuh]

Ergodox is fully programmable, and they are creating a GUI to do so. So everybody can map his key where he wants .

Which meeeeeans.... that you ARE gonna have to put some fskcing thought into this issue right here!

I'm not saying these should be banned. I'm just saying I use them so rarely
they can disappear into the 15th layer and require 7 fingers to press.

You don't PrtSc?
Agree that they don't have to have top positions at all, but most of those need to be pressable together with alt/ctrl/shift to be useful; imho they do need to be available.

I'll deal with it if I ever get an ergodox .

[msiegel]

hi :)
i'm posting this to remind me, i want to make one of these from model F switches.
it will be an expensive project :/

f-based colemak.png (27.92 KiB) Viewed 5367 times

[off]

Heeeey msiegel, welcome to DT, good to have you here!

Onto your content (will get to yours in a different post, later, suka ), just one OS key (are you planning on ditching 'meta/menu', or having that through fn+OS)?
And no special layering thought out yet (what does the fn do), or have you?

and 'thanks' for reminding me I forgot to ask if anyone brought a Model F to the party last sunday :'(

[dox]

I'm still working on the keymap (and it will be programmable) but the physical layout of the ErgoDox is final. I ordered the case prototype from shapeways yesterday, I can't wait to try it with the closer thumb keys.

[off]

Ooh, grats!
Still very curious of what you'll think (feel) about the outer three keys on that thumbcluster...
Ah, when I actually lift my hands up (like you're supposed to) they dð become usable!
Thing is, I tend to use my keyboard 'hanging back', resting my palms on the desk; guess that's where the disrepancy came from when discussing that thumbcluster last time.
So for reference, most of my remarks come from having my fingers quite relaxed on the home row, not curled up in a way that has the first and third fingerbone on my index form a 90* angle; which is what happens when I sit up and float.

What's your current take regarding your personal ErgoDox keymap?

[didja]

I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes dox. Your projects are always impressive.

Nice to see you Msiegel. That would be very tough with buckling springs unless you got some of those brother single switch modules and rigged something together. Even then you'd have your work cut out for you.

[msiegel]

nice to see you guys too!

i think a custom pcb and cnc-cut sheet steel will be needed

no menu for me; i'm on mac and linux ...this design is supposed to be like a colemak hhkb... although lately i'm questioning whether i want dedicated cursor/paging keys

[off]

Holy shit! Just realised that my thumb can comfortably reach all the way to Alt when I'm in a more correct position..
(meaning from straight below A|; all the way to ... eh, G for the right, and H for the left is still as far as I can get comfortably (i.e. without getting my hand into a 'kung-fu-fist').

@siegel, do those OSs really use just one OS key? Is better though, windows really should move to just a single one as well; not like they do a lot anyhow.

[off]

Prior to switching to Pentatdactyl I also utilized things like copy text - new tab - paste - return, for example, but the dedicated keyboard mode is far superior.

As you can see plenty of keys are not in use yet or duplicates, so 2x5x3 keys x4 layers is already plenty, not even considering the thumbrow nor the outer columns.

I'm not so sure you'll have keys left over after cutting off the outer collums actually.. there are a few duplicates though.
And ofcourse, if you were to skip the thumb-buttons, there would be no more layers, limiting even more. But you seem to have dumped the F-keys (and moved the umlauts to the numpad layer, not visualized in my image since umlauts are not universal; some languages use way more 'signed characters' and some way less), hence giving you a full 5x3x2 space for new keys, so I do see what you're getting at.
As was probably evident from my personal initial sketch, I too believe in layering and small keyboards being fully sufficient.
How do you like it so far to have to shift back and forth to utilize the numpad as you would on a normal board (like in a calculator), annoying or natural?
What does MKT (from 'Thumb & MKT') stand for btw?
And indeed, I too could use a better way of quickly sketching up and visualizing layouts, and editing them afterwards.
This Pentadactyl I haven't checked out, this 'dedicated keyboard mode' is a feature of that?

[suka]

All Fn-keys are available, just very seldomly needed. What I plan on implementing in regard to the umlauts and other accented characters is a compose mode, where based on several key presses a different one is generated (eg Compose - u - " will create ü). Have used it with the neo windows drivers and found it very useful, it's just that I get along too fine with the way it is now that I hardly think of this feature.

The integrated numpad is great and selecting it (among all the other layers) with the right thumb has become very natural to me, especially since the same layers right hand side with the navigation controls is also often needed. What I would like to try, though, is aranging the numbers according to Benford's law, thus moving the most often used digits 0-4 on the home row.

MKT was my initial name for the duplicate use of the modifiers: ModeKeyToggle (either Mode or Key)

Pentadactyl is an extension to Firefox that makes everything accesible to key shortcuts, employing a vi-like command and navigation mode to enable really powerful features. Together with the i3 tiling windowmanager it has greatly reduced my use of either mouse or trackpoint, which is really nice once you get used to it. Definately worth a try, especially if you're already changing about everything else in your machine interaction for the sake of ergonomics ...

Nice picture you created by the way