I'm a software developer/electronic engineer. Despite workstation optimization, keeping off the keyboard at home, rest breaks every hour (sometimes more frequently than that especially at the end of the week), I'm having finger/wrist pain which has been interfering with my ability to actually get work done. To make matters worse, I've had to take a second job (with reduced hours at my original job) and I'm now seriously struggling...

So, a few weeks ago, I discovered the existence of the DataHand. It seems perfect for me, and I'm willing to see my 100wpm halved or more if it means I can spend more than 4 hours in day coding before the pain becomes uncomfortable (hardly any of my coding, except perhaps doic writing, requires full-speed typing).

But I'm having real trouble finding out where to get a hold of one. I've contacted DataHand themselves; no reply. I've contacted companies that appeared to have been resellers at some point; no reply. I set a bid of $1900 USD on http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300734102001 - but some guy sniped me

Does anyone know somebody with a DataHand they'd be willing to sell? Even broken - I have all my own prototyping and SMD re-work gear, I'm pretty confident I could repair one, even if it means ditching the electronics completely and making my own.

The alternative is a Maltron or Kinesis contoured keyboard, but I really like the idea of the soft touch with the DataHand - most of my pain comes from my fingers in a way where I think the DH would help but perhaps the contoured keyboards wouldn't.

Well, if you're willing to pay that kind of money all you have to do is wait a little. They come up on ebay about once a month.

And next time don't bid before 15seconds to end of auction. No point in raising price before.

The datahand takes a lot of getting used to, and coding uses a lot of punctuation so be prepared for a long acclimatisation period... I agree that it should help you, though.

We ask this a lot - have you seen your doctor? We ask it a lot because it's important.

While you're waiting, there are things you can do.

Type less. I used to write code, change my mind half way through and then rewrite bits. I started to look at my workload with the perspective that my new economy is based on keystrokes and not time. Plan a bit more. Don't type until you know what you are going to type. Take a look at Macro Express or Autohotkey and write macros to flesh out your functions - once you've scripted something to enter a comments block, validate your arguments, instantiate your variables and destroy references you'll probably save 1000-1500 keystrokes per function. Can you really afford not to invest the effort into a tool that does at least some of those things? If you install workrave, then it can tell you how many keystrokes you type each day. It's amazing how much you can accomplish with fewer keystrokes.

Reduce your email - you can control the pace of an email exchange just by responding slowly. Pick up the phone or walk over if you can.

If your mouse hand hurts more, try changing your mouse. You might find a vertical mouse that works for you.

You could change your keyboard for a while - something tenkeyless would be an easy switch - this would help you use your mouse more comfortably (if you're right handed that is). You could always sell it on later. Swap between keyboards every few days. What are you typing on now?

Learn to use the mouse with your left hand - a little variety is a good thing. It'll make you feel happier as it'll feel like you are making at least some progress. Stick with it for a week and then alternate left/right every few days.

Swap to dvorak or colemak - this has made all the difference for me - I type a bit slower, but it's much, much more comfortable. There's probably no point doing this if you make the switch to the datahand. Just don't switch layouts when you're busy at work.

Task variation - could you do something else for a hour each day? You might be able to swap tasks with a co-worker.

Oh, and have some fun when you can - it can take the stress out your situation

Apologies if you've already gone through all this stuff.

Whatever you end up doing - hope it works out for you.

csirac2 wrote:...
But I'm having real trouble finding out where to get a hold of one. I've contacted DataHand themselves; no reply. I've contacted companies that appeared to have been resellers at some point; no reply. I set a bid of $1900 USD on http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300734102001 - but some guy sniped me ...

Why didn't you wait until a few seconds before the end of the auction?

sucks man.. feel sorry for you

zoidbergslo wrote:And next time don't bid before 15seconds to end of auction. No point in raising price before.

In the end, the highest bidder wins, no matter when the bid is placed .
On items like this it's actually a good thing to place early bids,
because all the people who think they can get it for nothing will lose interest, move on, and shill-bid on something else .

1925USD for NIB DataHand is still A LOT better than 2500USD for a USED g80-5000, isn't it ?
Especially if you consider the original retail-price !

Yeah, right!

In the name of all sellers:
Thanks for early bidding! We love you! Carry on!

7bit wrote:Yeah, right!

In the name of all sellers:
Thanks for early bidding! We love you! Carry on!

Sell me your USED G80-5000 for 101 Euros, or 2 for 155 each plus fees, or just lay off it, will you ?
I think I proved my theory with that auction, don't you ??

EDIT : NO : You will NOT get a datahand for 0.99, no matter WHEN you place the bid .
Things like that actually have what you could call a 'going rate' .

Don't know what you are talking about ( ) ...

Also, if the previous bids are higher and I want it, I bid more. But nobody will be able to react on my own bid, because there are only a few seconds left.

ps: Only thing you and the other guy proved was that early bidders are hunted down and usually don't get the item.

hoggy wrote:The datahand takes a lot of getting used to, and coding uses a lot of punctuation so be prepared for a long acclimatisation period... I agree that it should help you, though.

Thanks Hoggy for your detailed response. I am bracing myself for lost time, but now is best: ahead of schedule for the software component of my new job (for once! I had firm control of the spec), which also involves a decent amount of hardware build and even field work, which should bring back some variety to my workload.

hoggy wrote:We ask this a lot - have you seen your doctor? We ask it a lot because it's important.

Yes, although it was a year ago. It wasn't keeping me up at night and I don't push myself past a relatively small pain threshold - I get up for a walk when the twinges get beyond a background level. It's just that these 5-10 min. walks are becoming too frequent and breaking my concentration. My doctor discussed stretches, yoga, and seemed more concerned with my lack of exercise, and now that I have two jobs I'm finding myself exercising more regularly - probably because I'm working from home (and something about a new job seems motivating).

hoggy wrote:While you're waiting, there are things you can do.

Type less. I used to write code, change my mind half way through and then rewrite bits. I started to look at my workload with the perspective that my new economy is based on keystrokes and not time. Plan a bit more. Don't type until you know what you are going to type. Take a look at Macro Express or Autohotkey and write macros to flesh out your functions - once you've scripted something to enter a comments block, validate your arguments, instantiate your variables and destroy references you'll probably save 1000-1500 keystrokes per function. Can you really afford not to invest the effort into a tool that does at least some of those things? If you install workrave, then it can tell you how many keystrokes you type each day. It's amazing how much you can accomplish with fewer keystrokes.

Many more experienced colleagues have said the same. I've got a pretty pimped-out .vimrc - I started reading about RSI prevention over a year ago now, but recently I've been taking it more seriously. I must admit I have probably tripled the number of vim features I use regularly. And I've been using vim for 10 years.

hoggy wrote:Reduce your email - you can control the pace of an email exchange just by responding slowly. Pick up the phone or walk over if you can.

Thankfully E-mail isn't a big item for me, but we do use IM a bit.

hoggy wrote:If your mouse hand hurts more, try changing your mouse. You might find a vertical mouse that works for you.

You could change your keyboard for a while - something tenkeyless would be an easy switch - this would help you use your mouse more comfortably (if you're right handed that is). You could always sell it on later. Swap between keyboards every few days. What are you typing on now?

At work they got me a vertical mouse - I lost some minor shoulder/back pain, but my mouse wrist still tires quicker than the other. My original Dell keyboard was horrible compared to the Microsoft Natural 4000 I got, and at home I've tried a Logitech, then moved on to a lenovo thinkpad keyboard with trackpoint - which IMHO is a perfect solution for the mousing problem but I still feel more strained in using it than the Microsoft Natural.

I have tried simply putting the mouse out of reach, which is ok for most of my tasks except of course now I have to do some PCB/CAD work.

hoggy wrote:Learn to use the mouse with your left hand - a little variety is a good thing. It'll make you feel happier as it'll feel like you are making at least some progress. Stick with it for a week and then alternate left/right every few days.

I've colleagues who have done this, I should try it too, if I am going to persist with a mouse.

hoggy wrote:Swap to dvorak or colemak - this has made all the difference for me - I type a bit slower, but it's much, much more comfortable. There's probably no point doing this if you make the switch to the datahand. Just don't switch layouts when you're busy at work.

I guess I've been avoiding a fundamentally new layout until I think it's a nessary investment. But I'll give it some time.

hoggy wrote:Task variation - could you do something else for a hour each day? You might be able to swap tasks with a co-worker.

Oh, and have some fun when you can - it can take the stress out your situation

Apologies if you've already gone through all this stuff.

Whatever you end up doing - hope it works out

No need to aplogise for great advice! It's good to hear from somebody who found relief in an alternate layout. I appreciate your help.

7bit wrote:Don't know what you are talking about ( ) ...

Also, if the previous bids are higher and I want it, I bid more. But nobody will be able to react on my own bid, because there are only a few seconds left.

ps: Only thing you and the other guy proved was that early bidders are hunted down and usually don't get the item.

I bid what I thought was the max I thought I wanted to pay. The winner obviously bid higher. Using esniper wouldn't have changed that fact.

I'm telling myself it's a good thing.. Maybe I can pick up a used/broken one cheaper, and save the credit card a bit.

meh...maybe you will have more luck than me since you're in the US but I couldn't find a broken one either. I just waited around here until somebody decided to get rid of one of his Datahands. Got very, very lucky.

I'm wondering how to move on myself. I'm having mild RSI issues in both hands. I already switch the mouse every once in a while. I haven't moved my Datahand to work yet. Don't even know if I would be allowed to but I only started this week so I didn't want to cause a fuss or admit that I might be having problems with the job already. :/

I think I'll try a trackball next and maybe bring my ms ergo to work as well. It doesn't look nearly as weird as the Datahand and isn't nearly as expensive.

Why don't you hire a typist to transcribe for you? ;-P

Sadly, dictating code is probably harder than just typing it in. Would be very frustrating for the secretary as well.

captain wrote:Why don't you hire a typist to transcribe for you? ;-P

Ah, the good old days…

Icarium wrote:meh...maybe you will have more luck than me since you're in the US but I couldn't find a broken one either. I just waited around here until somebody decided to get rid of one of his Datahands. Got very, very lucky.

Actually, I'm in Australia, but I contacted the seller who said he'd be happy to ship here (and that I was the second Australian to ask).

I'm quietly confident I could make some progress with a Kinesis Advantage (though I'd be seriously looking to cut it in half, and add a trackpoint stick or some other pointer to it) - it's just that the DH looked like the most complete solution with the best chance for success.

Hope your DataHand works out for you - and the new job!

So, a few weeks ago, I discovered the existence of the DataHand. It seems perfect for me, and I'm willing to see my 100wpm halved .....

I was in this exact situation a few months ago, and datahands helped out a ton. I had switched to a kinesis for about 2 months and things got better, but then the pain came back worse than ever and I could barely work and was laying awake at night from the pain in my fingers. If your finger problems are similar to mine, your fingers sometimes feel locked in a flexed position like you're holding something (trigger finger), and sometimes it randomly feels like they're being bent backwards.

I went to a doctor, got cortisone injections which didn't work, and started active release therapy (you should check this out - its been somewhat helpful). But, the biggest thing that helped was the datahand. I got a really old one (a movie prop DH-200) on ebay and used that for about two months, and recently got two more current ones (pro II). Waiting for them to pop up is a pain, but especially with the prices they're going at, they pop up relatively frequently. Just be prepared to pay through the nose, and put in a very high max bid last minute (~15 seconds before close).

Also, the adjustment honestly is not as hard as people make it out to be. It took a full week of only using it to be able to do some work (I kept the qwerty layout for easy transition), was up to 40wpm after ~1 month, and am up to 80 now (was ~100 on a normal keyboard).

If you really want an old one, I have an old (semi) functional dh-200, but its missing the adapter box (the thing that the hand units plug into that communicates with the pc). It works ok with an adapter box, other than the m key sometimes sticking, but you'd have to figure out which lines are which on the hand unit phone cables (something I'm not up to sadly). Honestly though I'd suggest waiting for a newer model to come out - after working on a dh-200 for a while and more recently on a pro2, the newer models are much softer on the fingers, more comfortable, and easier on the fingers with the macros you can program in (and additional programming / remapping you can do if you want to replace the chip in them).

aegray wrote:If your finger problems are similar to mine, your fingers sometimes feel locked in a flexed position like you're holding something (trigger finger), and sometimes it randomly feels like they're being bent backwards.

I must confess I'm not quite that bad at the moment, but experienced something like it a few years ago in a rough patch I was having (deadlines, burn-out, etc.). I met the deadlines, but suffered for it. For stupid non-reasons, I didn't see a doctor at the time. When I finally got to sleep (most!) nights, my wrists would be burning, and my middle/ring fingers would indeed spasm (curling up).

At the time I thought it was just a temporary thing that would go away. Then I met an ex-CAD guy who was working in the oilfield. I asked how he ended up making such a drastic career change, and he told me his story - involving a compensation payout - his left (mouse) hand became so weak he now can't hold tools. He's not only had to become a right-handed person but almost one-handed (odd seeing a healthy looking hand that can't open a door).

I'm trying not to rely on ergo keyboards as a magic cure-all. Just trying to squeeze the most key-presses I can out of what I now know is a finite key-pressing capacity in my fingers. For all of my years growing up and well into my working life, I assumed this capacity was infinite and that the pain was just normal or that my capacity would actually increase if I kept pushing it. I am now working on improving my general health, but reducing workload will have to wait until I extract myself from my current situation. Which is why I'm trying to find smarter ways of working, and the DataHand is part of that.

aegray wrote:I had switched to a kinesis for about 2 months and things got better, but then the pain came back worse than ever and I could barely work and was laying awake at night from the pain in my fingers.

I've read similar stories, but also from other ergo keyboards too (even DataHand). I do wonder if these stories could have been different with better self-pacing; I'm counting keystrokes, and trying to keep a log of discomfort so I can try to be a little scientific about measuring the impact of the changes that I make.

aegray wrote:It took a full week of only using it to be able to do some work (I kept the qwerty layout for easy transition), was up to 40wpm after ~1 month, and am up to 80 now (was ~100 on a normal keyboard).

That's really encouraging, of course I won't know for myself until I try it I guess.

aegray wrote:If you really want an old one, I have an old (semi) functional dh-200, but its missing the adapter box (the thing that the hand units plug into that communicates with the pc).

If you are looking for a new home for your old DH-200, I'd be very happy to offer a few hundred for it - reverse engineering legacy gear, and turning signals into bits happens to be something I do already. I even have some MCU dev boards lying around that would be perfect for a 30-50 hour hack job. Another factor is that it will be difficult for me to embark on DH-200 learning after September-ish, so any training I can get in early is a bonus.

On the other hand, if you value it in your collection as a source for spares, I don't want you to part with it just because I wrote a good sob story I can wait for eBay.

csirac2, if you buy an Advantage from Kinesis, they will accept back before 60 days (best check that number, though). I find the advantage is really quite good - you could get one in a few days and if it doesn't work for you - give it back.

The Advantage has a great feature - it beeps when you've pressed the key. The cherry switches activate half way down and the beep really helps get used to that. If you don't bottom out, then you can reduce the strain on your fingers as you won't have the abrupt stop that you're probably used to.

You can also store macros in the keyboard itself. So you could even store your login password (don't really recommend this) or some common words. You can remap keys on the fly - I have my capslock key remapped as backspace - as I'm used to this on my other keyboards. The thumb keys - enter, delete, backspace will help you reduce the load on the fingers a little (if you code - you use enter a lot).

hoggy wrote:The Advantage has a great feature - it beeps when you've pressed the key. The cherry switches activate half way down and the beep really helps get used to that. If you don't bottom out, then you can reduce the strain on your fingers as you won't have the abrupt stop that you're probably used to.

Didn't know that. I've been agonizing over whether to skip the kinesis but I seem be seeing a pattern that DataHand users eventually retire their units for something more conventional. I'm sure the Advantage would make a great second keyboard anyway.

reacting on the not bottoming out hoggy talked about: have you tried O-rings?

The DataHand can really use some modding too, btw. The button mouse is imho quite annoying and the controller is not quite as programmable as it should be.

O-rings - no, I haven't - seems like a cheap thing to try.

Now that I think about bottoming-out more carefully - for me, actual keypresses seem more comfortable on lenovo laptop/space-saver trackpoint keyboards. Something about the shallow travel results in less effort/pressure. But contorting the wrists is why I have to go back to the MS Natural 4000, even though its keys are horrible to press (somehow my only weeks-old unit is even worse - mushy with grainy/grinding feel - than the years-old one at work).

I was secretly hoping I could see a way to get a proportional response out of some of the datahand's keys and create a joystick HID interface (I assume Windows can be configured to move the pointer with joystick input too). Optical encoders do have a proportional current response under the right conditions, although I might have to play with different sensors/emitter levels to avoid early saturation. Also need to see if it makes sense for the DataHand's physical magnet/travel response which I haven't seen/felt in-person. Then, it requires a modified optical target which creates a variable light gate rather than an on/off one, which could prove terribly non-trivial. Finally, if all these changes really do create a usable signal that isn't immediately saturated at the slightest press, I'm sure the lineraization/limit-finding joystick calibration process will be "interesting".

Or I could just tack a trackpoint on there somewhere...

I'm going for the latter and the way the keys feel with the magnets you won't be able to move one of the keys just a little, sorry. :/

I have a datahand. I bought 2 spares, so I have 3. No I'm not selling them. I'm piping in here though to share my experience. DataHand saved my career. It is the most important thing I've ever bought. I've beat the crap out of them and they never break. I own a publishing company and I can do 20x the work on a DataHand. Whenever I have to use a regular keyboard, it is a joke.

Even if all my wrist problems disappeared, I'd never go back to a normal Keyboard. Datahand is 10x better, faster.

Don't use the DataHand mouse, it sucks. I use a stylus mouse like a Bamboo Fun by Wacom.

My current set up, I can type and work indefinitely. Prior, I couldn't work more than about 30 minutes without unbearable pain.

I believe the company may be making more units, they seem to come in and out of stock.

I met a guy who bought 10 units and keeps them in different houses because if his house burned down, it would end his career

I'm in the market to pick up more units, mostly as an investment, Dang I should have bought 10 when they were $1000 each through the company, and sold them brand new for $2000, could have made an easy $10K.

Anyway, DataHand is the ONLY real, worthwhile keyboard for professionals. Any and all others are a joke, and trust me, I've tried many. Good luck.

Oh and to the commenter that said after a while people ditch the DH and go back to a normal keyboard - no way. I love mine and will never go back.

Picture of my set up attached.

EDIT - by the way, a DH personal went on eBay UNBOUGHT for $400 a while ago, I wish I would have seen it and picked it up. I talked to the guy and he is getting it upgraded to the Pro - not sure the difference, though - and he said he'll re-list it. I'll be bidding, but not above $1200, so to the guy who started this thread, watch out for it, you'll have a chance to get it. Would be interesting to know WHO is upgrading it for him? The company? Anyway, hope this info helps. If you want to buy my 2 spares of me, it will cost you your 401K, your firstborn, and you'll have to give me $5M so I can retire

Interesting, we've been discussing using a stylus as mouse here: mice-other-input-devices-f3/digitizer-as-replacement-for-mouse-t3249.html

Also, please try not to have too much fun with your three DataHands while other people who need one are asking for it.

I'm the original poster and I'm the one that mentioned seeing stories of people letting their DH go after some recovery period. Perhaps they found the mouse situation too frustrating, or they never quite got back their original typing speed/accuracy.

I know that people jump to buy new gadgets as quick-fix solutions; I was just trying to impress that I'm not treating it as such, I've made other changes in my office & habits, and I am prepared to accept the risk that the DataHand may not work out for me.

That said, I am sold on the concept - if it works for me, it should be the best option available.

It's a matter of learning curve. If you dedicate a solid 6 months to learning the Datahand, you'll never look back. And yes, using the stylus as a mouse is key. The datahand mouse is WORTHLESS.

Another consideration, for those who type a lot of words, is to use Dragon Naturally Speaking. I type long articles and books with Dragon, orally, and it saves a lot of energy. Of course Dragon makes mistakes, but it's much easier to go through and correct them than to type it all. And you can learn Dragon commands like "correct that" or "erase that," etc.

As I sit here and type, I realize that thinking about my DataHand is equivalent to thinking about my iPhone vs my cell phones of 10 years ago. It is THAT big of a difference. Get a DataHand, you won't regret it. And the darned things seem to keep their resale, so even if you pay $2500 for one you can probably get that back if you hate it.

I think the very first thing you need to do is minimize keystrokes and this if you use a DataHand or not.

You mentioned vim: I'm using (in addition to a lot of other fine and fast ways to navigate) Emacs' ace-jump-mode. Under vim it's called PreciseJump or EasyMotion IIRC. This has to be the single biggest keystrokes saver ever for a programmer.

If you're not using that you definitely want to install it and take the two minutes it takes to learn it. It is very, very fast. The trick is to look first precisely where you want to move your cursor to and then, while keeping your eyes there, invoke the "jump": you then recognize the key that appears where your eyes are looking and hit that key.

You can get to any character you can visually see on your screen in four (sometimes five) keystrokes. No more "go down two lines, go right three words" followed by manually adjusting your cursor to where you want to edit.

I bound it to M-e so going to any position I can see in my Emacs buffer is: M-e (two keystrokes), "key I want to go to" (three keystrokes) and then one (sometimes two) additional keystrokes.

It's hard to explain without trying it but you have to remember that the key to efficiently using is to first look precisely where you want to edit next and then call that plugin (you probably want to bind it to some sane shortcut).

The Emacs mode can be modified so that you never need the pinkies (I take it it's the same for vim).

Here's a demo but it doesn't do the mode justice:

Animated .gif showing how it works (the 'xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx' example is very poorly chosen I think because it's definitely not a typical use case but whatever):

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh24 ... mation.gif

I hope you'll find a way to suffer less.

Good luck finding your DataHand and let us know how long it takes to adapt to it once you get one.