Miniguru progress

cookie · 14 Mar 2014, 11:17

No I have never typed on such a keyboard, I can imagine that it is quite comfy with the additional buttons on the bottom.
I find my HHKB verry good tbh, but with a 2 or 3 piece spacebar and fully programmable controller it would be perfect. I still can't get used to the HOME/END buttons :/

Jeah and ofc wht a trackpoint of other smart pointing device inside would be great

Muirium · 14 Mar 2014, 11:30

jacobolus wrote:
cookie wrote:Verry nice, but I'd [...] not have the extra 2 buttons under the spacebar,
Have you tried a keyboard which had such keys? They’re tremendously convenient. The spacebar is actually a bit of an upward reach for a resting thumb on a medium sized hand; keys one row further down are very easy to press. Combining one of those thumb keys + the home row is noticeably easier, faster, and more accurate than reaching up to press the number row. And now you still have a whole extra layer and a half (or more if you start getting fancy with your chording) left from those thumb keys, to do something else with.

Thumb keys are my favourites. They're what draw me to short space bars and lots of mods. The idea of putting another whole row of them down there is highly appealing! Thumbs are criminally underused with a plain old dumb spacebar!

jacobolus wrote:Even better is to not just arrange all the keys pointed the same direction in a rigid grid, but instead figure out the shape of the hand and the way it moves, and then place keys exactly where they’re easiest to reach. Depending on how fancy your technology is for cutting out cases, plates, etc., this could be a complicated curvy shape, or it could just be a few flat planes.]

I'm thinking of waging war on traditional stagger with this year's laser cut custom build. But which route to take? A straight matrix layout? Symmetrical stagger? ErgoDox style vertical offset curves? Or something more cunning and bespoke entirely? Sounds like you've ideas!

lowpoly · 14 Mar 2014, 11:46

jacobolus wrote:

I like that layout. I also like symmetrical staggers because they are so much more logical.

WRT thumb keys: I'll try to put the mouse buttons into the matrix. With that and capacitive sensors under the spacebar it would be close. Capacitive sensors would tell you which thumb pressed the spacebar.

Got my AVRisp mkII today:

Nice packaging, not counting the outer box. I'm a packaging fetishist.

lowpoly · 14 Mar 2014, 22:29

The J-Stick:

Hot glue FTW. Actually works, but not perfectly. First, the stick I have needs a tiny amount of down pressure or it won't engage. Easy with a stick but with a switch you have to be careful. Second, there's play in the switch. Both of these are no biggies and you can learn around it.

But what is needed is some contact with the keycap (deep dish cylindrical J here) or you will slide off the key. And this contact is much better if you lay your finger in a flat way into the dish, like 10 degree. But that's not how you hold it when you're on the home row for writing. It's more like 50 degree then. Meaning you have to relocate to point which kind of negates the initial idea. Should be better with a cylindrical deep dish cap.

No press-to-scroll unless you realllllly like the letter JJJJJJJJJJJJJ.

And it's also a height problem. Both the clamp and the switch usually go into the pcb but here they're on top of each other. An offset clamp may do but I have no idea how this will affect pressure. Could work?

Good thing is, I found a problem with my TP code.

jacobolus · 18 Mar 2014, 07:33

Hopefully not too off-topic, if not sticking to a rectangular shape, I’d go for a layout something closer to:

Whereupon there's lots of space in the gaps next to F, J for little trackpoint thingies.

(Note, this needs hands to be angled more steeply, but I didn't want to redo it w/ the keyboard-layout-editor thingy, which doesn't make such changes easy. And imagine some tenting, and thumb keys on 2 separate planes, not in plane w/ the finger keys.)

lowpoly · 18 Mar 2014, 14:11

I'd have to stay with rectangular or I'll never finish anything.

But I see how your layout leaves more options for trackpoint placement.

cookie · 18 Mar 2014, 19:05

I am curios how you will mahe the J-Cursor work

Verry exiting project!

lowpoly · 19 Mar 2014, 12:14

cookie wrote:I am curios how you will mahe the J-Cursor work

I won't do anything more with it. Losing press-to-scroll and tapping while requiring a special keycap... not worth it IMO. But it was interesting to try it and see how it feels.

jacobolus · 20 Mar 2014, 02:34

Here’s the sort of thing I was thinking of w/r/t putting the trackpoints between index & middle finger:

I’m fairly convinced that those wouldn’t end up in the way of typing.

CeeSA · 20 Mar 2014, 09:41

For my Matrix Layout I use the trackpoint between H,J (below) and N,M (above).
I am righthanded and very happy with the position.

jacobolus · 21 Mar 2014, 04:03

Alright. In that case, another idea:

This one is a bit less like the standard Sholes keyboard, with a columnar stagger, and a bit of tilt between the hands. But it still mostly fits in a pair of rectangles.

CeeSA · 21 Mar 2014, 14:26

Ah, thank you. Looks really good.

lowpoly · 21 Mar 2014, 15:19

I'll stay with the traditional layout. I thought I had said that already but it looks like I didn't.

Sorry.

So, if I would add two possible stick positions which should they be? JKM with DFC? Or IJ with RD?

I'm also not sure if it will be possible to use two sticks at the same time. Right now we're out of pins:

19 matrix (14x5)
2 ps/2
3 touch sensor
1 led

A 7x10 matrix could free 2 pins but I'm not sure I want that.

CeeSA · 21 Mar 2014, 15:26

HJN and GVB.

lowpoly · 21 Mar 2014, 15:36

This would require a shorter stick. Currently it is about 5mm out. With the 4mm head it shouldn't be a problem though.

CeeSA · 21 Mar 2014, 15:46

I would go for one stick in possible two positions. That would be great enough. Maybe you could just reserve the space for it.

For me it feels better to go low with the index finger, instead of going up for the trackpoint. The middlefinger is longer and he has to start to bend little bit more for going up with the indexfinger. I know it is a very tiny difference But we have the choice to do it that way. Even it is a very little advantage.
I think it could be a little more comfortable to have less distance between the mousebuttons and the trackpoint.

jacobolus · 22 Mar 2014, 05:36

lowpoly wrote:I'll stay with the traditional layout. I thought I had said that already but it looks like I didn't. Sorry.

Oh, no problem. I wasn’t expecting you’d make a non-Sholes or split layout. I was just throwing out ideas of where a trackpoints could go on other layouts, in case someone is inspired.

So, if I would add two possible stick positions which should they be? JKM with DFC? Or IJ with RD?

I think either of those would work. Or you could test out having the trackpoints to the other side of the index finger and see if it interferes with typing.

I'm also not sure if it will be possible to use two sticks at the same time. Right now we're out of pins:

19 matrix (14x5)
2 ps/2
3 touch sensor
1 led

Basically, make whatever design you personally want to use.

I’m unconvinced about the touch sensor, but it might be awesome, and is definitely worth trying.

A 7x10 matrix could free 2 pins but I'm not sure I want that.

All else equal, a 7x10 matrix seems better than 14x5. An 8x9 matrix would even let you do 2 switches more.

Since I don’t know what your layout is, how you plan to wire things up, etc., it’s hard to judge this though.

lowpoly · 22 Mar 2014, 20:50

CeeSA wrote:I would go for one stick in possible two positions. That would be great enough. Maybe you could just reserve the space for it.

For me it feels better to go low with the index finger, instead of going up for the trackpoint. The middlefinger is longer and he has to start to bend little bit more for going up with the indexfinger. I know it is a very tiny difference But we have the choice to do it that way. Even it is a very little advantage.
I think it could be a little more comfortable to have less distance between the mousebuttons and the trackpoint.

All good points. It will be JKM with DFC as alternate positions then. I tried around again and I think these will have better clearance than positions closer to the middle, like JNM.

jacobolus wrote:Oh, no problem. I wasn’t expecting you’d make a non-Sholes or split layout. I was just throwing out ideas of where a trackpoints could go on other layouts, in case someone is inspired.

Ah, all is good then, please continue.

jacobolus wrote:I’m unconvinced about the touch sensor, but it might be awesome, and is definitely worth trying.

It's a try. We're currently setting up a test spacebar.

jacobolus wrote:All else equal, a 7x10 matrix seems better than 14x5. An 8x9 matrix would even let you do 2 switches more.

Hm, I like simplicity, that's why 14x5 appeals to me.

But it's not worth the lost pins, I guess. IIRC this is being corrected in keymap_common.h so you don't have to program with a weird layout.

As for LEDs, we figured we can run these off the touch sensor. Saves another pin. Right now I plan for just 3 LEDs, under F and J and under Esc. All switches in forward position. Esc was just an afterthought but I want F and J to allow quick localization of the home row. As soon as you start typing they fade off.

bhtooefr · 23 Mar 2014, 01:20

I'll note that the two positions that IBM mentioned publicly with their dual TrackPoint experiments were DFC/JKM and CVspace/NMspace:

http://web.archive.org/web/201110020952 ... thand.html
http://web.archive.org/web/201110020156 ... anded.html

lowpoly · 23 Mar 2014, 17:32

Cool, thank you. This should settle it then.

webwit · 23 Mar 2014, 18:00

The Datahand has two mousekeys, and there's this little trick for your consideration: left mousekey moves fast, right mousekey moves slow. And together, the pointer moves extra fast.

Grond · 23 Mar 2014, 18:04

Instead on the IBM project they intended the dual trackpoint to control two different pointers. This would require extra software, and i guess ends up being possibly confusing/overkill.

bhtooefr · 23 Mar 2014, 18:21

Myself, I'll note that I prefer GHB for TrackPoints - I never cross the GH split (G is as far right as I go with the left hand on that row, H is as far left as I go with the right hand on that row), and can therefore avoid the pointing stick quite easily, and I don't have to move far to get to it. (I also tend to use a TrackPoint with both hands, so a central location is good for that.)

cookie · 24 Mar 2014, 13:02

Guys honestly, is that trackpoint any good? I mean precision, feeling, usability?
I had a hard time to get used to a touchpad but the newer models are quite nice tbh.

bhtooefr · 24 Mar 2014, 13:25

The IBM/Lenovo TrackPoint IV is my favorite pointing device.

It's got a steeper learning curve than a touchpad, but once you've adapted to it (and I adapt some settings on them to my preferences too), it's quite excellent.

(The trick is that the Alps clones lack the negative inertia of the TrackPoint III and IV, so they just don't quite work as well. I can use one of the newer ones, but it's not as good.)

cookie · 27 Mar 2014, 11:30

I don't know if you guys know this one here but it is maybe interessting or inspirational to you: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jewu8210/1 ... otostream/ Looks like a miniguru clone with a not so smart mouse button solution.

JBert · 27 Mar 2014, 14:24

That's the Tex Yoda. There was a thread about it a while ago. They even take pre-orders (though that phase might as well be over).

EDIT: here: Tex Yoda Keyboard Release.

cookie · 27 Mar 2014, 15:03

In terms of aesthetics, key placement and ofcourse coolness I definately prefere the miniguru!

lowpoly · 28 Mar 2014, 17:17

Pointing stick positions: I'll try and provide alternate positions in the case and zif cable connectors on the pcb. I can't add it to the code because it will affect several areas. You have to run two independent ps/2 connections, for example. Right now, I have to stay close to hasu's master branch.

Tex Yoda: I've seen it.

mSSM · 31 May 2014, 20:18

So, the Tex Yoda is out (and it's sexy!). But I think it would not be nearly as sexy as having a Miniguru!

So what's the progress?