deskthority

It's doubly annoying for black M13 owners: Unicomp now recommends awful white keys which (in my opinion) look dreadful on them.

We really have got to figure out lasering black PBT for ourselves. A laser engraver can be had for not much more than a good 3D printer.

quantalume wrote:

bitslasher wrote:The terminal boards are the only F boards with a modern ANSI style layout.

Those would require a bit of work to convert to true ANSI, would they not? I'm referring to the short left shift and big enter key. I just got done converting an M-122, and it was a pain because you have to bolt mod it in the process. Is the F-122 similar to other F`s in that you have to bend back tabs to separate the pcb sandwich?

You know what...you are correct! I totally forgot about converting the layout! The Model F terminal boards are much easier to modify because you can easily move the barrels around on those however. The Model M terminals not so since the thing is all riveted together. You'd have to bolt-mod it just to convert it. No so with the Model F. You can just slide the back plate off and move the barrels around. A fun Saturday evening project.

Speaking of which: what's the preferred material for patching up / replacing a flaky Model F's foam? My Kishsaver needs a spring replaced and I'm shy to take it apart with that stuff flaking as much around the edges.

Muirium wrote:Speaking of which: what's the preferred material for patching up / replacing a flaky Model F's foam? My Kishsaver needs a spring replaced and I'm shy to take it apart with that stuff flaking as much around the edges.

I've been asking myself the same question. I dimly recall seeing a post on this or perhaps another model of IBM keyboard in which they mentioned using something called "art foam" (not "art film"). I think they might have used something like white poster board, sometimes employed for setting up poster exhibits at meetings; I think it might be laminated styroform. However, I need to re-google this to find more definitive answers, preferably in the form of tutorials with pics or videos.

bitslasher wrote:

quantalume wrote:

bitslasher wrote:The terminal boards are the only F boards with a modern ANSI style layout.

Those would require a bit of work to convert to true ANSI, would they not? I'm referring to the short left shift and big enter key. I just got done converting an M-122, and it was a pain because you have to bolt mod it in the process. Is the F-122 similar to other F`s in that you have to bend back tabs to separate the pcb sandwich?

You know what...you are correct! I totally forgot about converting the layout! The Model F terminal boards are much easier to modify because you can easily move the barrels around on those however. The Model M terminals not so since the thing is all riveted together. You'd have to bolt-mod it just to convert it. No so with the Model F. You can just slide the back plate off and move the barrels around. A fun Saturday evening project.

However, I recall seeing a post somewhere in which a bolt mod was done on an XT keyboard just for good measure and to facilitate reopening the plates; only a few bolts were used.

rjrich wrote:However, I recall seeing a post somewhere in which a bolt mod was done on an XT keyboard just for good measure and to facilitate reopening the plates; only a few bolts were used.

If I'm thinking of the same one, that was fohat on GH and he did it on an F-122 as the backplate there is larger and has the potential for more play in it than the AT or XT. 122 backplates are harder to deal with than XT/AT.

Here's his thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0

Possibly there was someone with an XT that did the same thing.

E TwentyNine wrote:If I'm thinking of the same one, that was fohat on GH and he did it on an F-122 as the backplate there is larger and has the potential for more play in it than the AT or XT. 122 backplates are harder to deal with than XT/AT.

Here's his thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0

Wow, that makes a Model M bolt mod seem like a piece of cake!

E TwentyNine wrote:

rjrich wrote:However, I recall seeing a post somewhere in which a bolt mod was done on an XT keyboard just for good measure and to facilitate reopening the plates; only a few bolts were used.

If I'm thinking of the same one, that was fohat on GH and he did it on an F-122 as the backplate there is larger and has the potential for more play in it than the AT or XT. 122 backplates are harder to deal with than XT/AT.

Here's his thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0

Possibly there was someone with an XT that did the same thing.

I found another post on GH about dismantling, cleaning, and reassembling an XT board. Unless I am missing something, it looks like he cleaned out the degraded foam and didn't replace it:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=5492.0

E TwentyNine wrote:

scottc wrote:Wow, that looks perfect. I'm really tempted to try that on my AT board, E29 - thanks for the inspiration!

I was amazed it hadn't been done before. It just feels right.

Note I've since changed the layout a little:

Spoiler:

Rearranging the keys is so easy with the F it's not a problem to experiment with layouts.

Here's the full build: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52379

My final step that I haven't gotten to yet is to either re-case it or get something to build up the gap around the navigation keys that will look good and feel right.

Regarding rearranging keys on Model F boards, have you tried this with an XT keyboard?

On some IBM keyboards, if there are unused barrels already located over an actuation point, a spring assembly could be moved to the barrel to create a new key position. However, on an XT board, what if there is no barrel in a spot where I would like to locate a key? What would I need to do to create a new key in a blank spot? Can this be done?

Thanks.

bitslasher wrote:

quantalume wrote:

bitslasher wrote:The terminal boards are the only F boards with a modern ANSI style layout.

Those would require a bit of work to convert to true ANSI, would they not? I'm referring to the short left shift and big enter key. I just got done converting an M-122, and it was a pain because you have to bolt mod it in the process. Is the F-122 similar to other F`s in that you have to bend back tabs to separate the pcb sandwich?

You know what...you are correct! I totally forgot about converting the layout! The Model F terminal boards are much easier to modify because you can easily move the barrels around on those however. The Model M terminals not so since the thing is all riveted together. You'd have to bolt-mod it just to convert it. No so with the Model F. You can just slide the back plate off and move the barrels around. A fun Saturday evening project.

Thanks. I will ask you the same question that I just posed to E TwentyNine:

Regarding rearranging keys on Model F boards, have you tried this specifically with an XT keyboard?

On some IBM keyboards, if there are unused barrels already located over an actuation point, a spring assembly could be moved to the barrel to create a new key position. However, on an XT board, what if there is no barrel in a spot where I would like to locate a key? What would I need to do to create a new key in a blank spot? Can this be done? I suppose there are several parts to this -- drilling holes for the new barrel site and moving the barrel to the new hole. However, what to do about creating a new capacitive actuation site for the spring and rocker assembly? (Sorry for the hopelessly naive question!).

Thanks.

rjrich wrote:Regarding rearranging keys on Model F boards, have you tried this with an XT keyboard?

On some IBM keyboards, if there are unused barrels already located over an actuation point, a spring assembly could be moved to the barrel to create a new key position. However, on an XT board, what if there is no barrel in a spot where I would like to locate a key? What would I need to do to create a new key in a blank spot? Can this be done?

Thanks.

The XT has no hidden pads. Every key has one pad under it. Can't move anything or add new keys. Suppose you could remove a few if you liked to get some sort of navigation cluster on the right...

That's why projects like Xtant exist to create a whole new pcb and top barrel plate: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51767.0

Thanks for helping lift the veil of ignorance, E TwentyNine! -- now I understand the situation much better. Too bad there are no hidden pads lurking in the XT. For the time being, I will just have to be a bit more inventive with the remapping accompanied by reconfiguring using custom keycaps.

Before I had AT's, there was one possibility I had considered but never fully investigated.

It is convoluted. Here it is:

• Take apart the board, cut a new barrel hole to the right of the tilde key, inline with the PrtScr key vertically (i.e. the bottom of the enter key)
• Put the board back together with the enter's barrel in that spot, but with no flipper there.
• Where the PrtScr key was, put the tilde key instead
• Where the tilde key was, get a left shift from an M, the kind with the stem not a stabilizer, put it in. Note you don't want a barrel stabilizer in the empty barrel, the left shift is a little wider than two keys normally, and the stem should just rub against the right side of the barrel. Not sure if this would be stable enough, and the key might require a little trimming on the right to avoid rubbing against the 4.
• How to handle the gap next to the right bracket key? If you had another spare barrel you could do something similar as the enter key but the spacing would be different.
• Use a converter (soarer et al) to do your remappings etc.

This was just a lot of speculation as to what could be done. Ended up with a few AT's and stopped worrying about it...

E TwentyNine wrote:Before I had AT's, there was one possibility I had considered but never fully investigated.

It is convoluted. Here it is:

• Take apart the board, cut a new barrel hole to the right of the tilde key, inline with the PrtScr key vertically (i.e. the bottom of the enter key)
• Put the board back together with the enter's barrel in that spot, but with no flipper there.
• Where the PrtScr key was, put the tilde key instead
• Where the tilde key was, get a left shift from an M, the kind with the stem not a stabilizer, put it in. Note you don't want a barrel stabilizer in the empty barrel, the left shift is a little wider than two keys normally, and the stem should just rub against the right side of the barrel. Not sure if this would be stable enough, and the key might require a little trimming on the right to avoid rubbing against the 4.
• How to handle the gap next to the right bracket key? If you had another spare barrel you could do something similar as the enter key but the spacing would be different.
• Use a converter (soarer et al) to do your remappings etc.

This was just a lot of speculation as to what could be done. Ended up with a few AT's and stopped worrying about it...

Thanks! I will give this a closer look.

On the lookout for an AT, but thus far nothing has appeared on the horizon.

In the meantime, I am enjoying typing on my XT, despite the imperfect layout of the return and delete (especially in my attempt to mimic the HHKB layout, which on this board seems to require using 1x keys for these essential functions).

Parak wrote:Beam springs are only imitations of the selectrics. A certain number of selectric mechanisms were made into terminals with appropriate electrical connections. Clearly, you must appropriate one and adapt it to usb to use it as the ultimate keyboard.

Perhaps frighteningly, I have somehow recently acquired four Selectrics (one mark I, three mark IIs); also thrown in was a Hermes 808, a Swiss (?!) knockoff of the Selectrics.

I copy you on the amazing feel. This is possibly the first thing that eclipses my 3727 beamspring board (which was the first thing that beat my Model F AT).

I think once I've got the Displaywriter and Model F controller out there and done, tackling USB conversion of my Selectrics must be next on the list. Wonder what the best way of sensing the position of whiffletree linkages might be...

Keep in mind that IBM actually did this.

They used contacts for each keylever, that actuated upon bottoming out, it looks like: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... _Nov70.pdf (page 5-10, or PDF page 278, huge PDF warning).

Another one to look at would be the keyboard used in the Electronic 50 and Electronic 65. As I understand, that's a divorced keyboard (every other Selectric-style keyboard is mechanically connected to the print mechanism), that uses an electric motor to trigger the tactile event (the interposer being knocked out from under the keylever).

bhtooefr wrote:Keep in mind that IBM actually did this.

They used contacts for each keylever, that actuated upon bottoming out, it looks like: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... _Nov70.pdf (page 5-10, or PDF page 278, huge PDF warning).

Another one to look at would be the keyboard used in the Electronic 50 and Electronic 65. As I understand, that's a divorced keyboard (every other Selectric-style keyboard is mechanically connected to the print mechanism), that uses an electric motor to trigger the tactile event (the interposer being knocked out from under the keylever).

A real keyboard for mechanical engineers!

bhtooefr wrote:[about the IBM manual] huge PDF warning

I smiled when I passed the first-aid page...

Yeah I thought about picking up the keylevers (they're nice and accessible), but then you need some crazy multi-sensor array (a bit like those USB typewriter conversion kits, which is a bit... well... huckery, for an IBM input device). A couple of incremental encoders on the cables which cause the ball to tilt and yaw might work. It's interesting, as the whiffletree linkage is of course a (mechanical) digital to analogue converter; weird that reading the analogue part might be easier for an electronic circuit than the digital part

Cool PDF! You turn up some good stuff.

EDIT: Beyond cool! This manual is freaking gold! I love how they're suggesting setting feed roll spacing by inserting three `tab' (punch?) cards and seeing how well it grabs This might be handy for my boring old *typewriter* Selectrics as well. Where do you find these things?

Bitsavers is a wonderful place for old stuff like that. Somewhere in one of the terminal maintenance PDFs, or it might've been the 5100, are the directions for rebuilding a beam spring switch, too.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... selectric/ for the Selectric stuff, knock off the parts of the path you don't want to get to the main IBM section.

rjrich wrote:

Muirium wrote:Speaking of which: what's the preferred material for patching up / replacing a flaky Model F's foam? My Kishsaver needs a spring replaced and I'm shy to take it apart with that stuff flaking as much around the edges.

I've been asking myself the same question. I dimly recall seeing a post on this or perhaps another model of IBM keyboard in which they mentioned using something called "art foam" (not "art film"). I think they might have used something like white poster board, sometimes employed for setting up poster exhibits at meetings; I think it might be laminated styroform. However, I need to re-google this to find more definitive answers, preferably in the form of tutorials with pics or videos.

You are on the right track. This is what I used to restore my F-84 and F-122:
http://www.michaels.com/20in-x-30in-x-3 ... dsteachers

The important thing with replacing the foam is patience and for the F-122 a couple c-clamps, a piece of metal pipe, and a rubber hammer. I was able to get all mine together without resorting to cutting and grinding on the metal parts. It all went together pretty easily. The pipe and c-clamps were used to hold everything together and straight, while I gently tapped the corners of one end, with the other end resting on a desk. The metal tabs will guide it back together.

Not trying to make it sound too easy, it was "fun"-- but once I realized how I could get it to stay lined up and together without using my hands, it was relatively straightforward.

Looks good stuff. Can you see it at all when the keyboard is reassembled? Like when holding down some keys?

Perhaps I shouldn't get the yellow…

bitslasher wrote:

rjrich wrote:

Muirium wrote:Speaking of which: what's the preferred material for patching up / replacing a flaky Model F's foam? My Kishsaver needs a spring replaced and I'm shy to take it apart with that stuff flaking as much around the edges.

I've been asking myself the same question. I dimly recall seeing a post on this or perhaps another model of IBM keyboard in which they mentioned using something called "art foam" (not "art film"). I think they might have used something like white poster board, sometimes employed for setting up poster exhibits at meetings; I think it might be laminated styroform. However, I need to re-google this to find more definitive answers, preferably in the form of tutorials with pics or videos.

You are on the right track. This is what I used to restore my F-84 and F-122:
http://www.michaels.com/20in-x-30in-x-3 ... dsteachers

The important thing with replacing the foam is patience and for the F-122 a couple c-clamps, a piece of metal pipe, and a rubber hammer. I was able to get all mine together without resorting to cutting and grinding on the metal parts. It all went together pretty easily. The pipe and c-clamps were used to hold everything together and straight, while I gently tapped the corners of one end, with the other end resting on a desk. The metal tabs will guide it back together.

Not trying to make it sound too easy, it was "fun"-- but once I realized how I could get it to stay lined up and together without using my hands, it was relatively straightforward.

I was looking at some acid-free foam board that is 1/8 inches thick rather than 3/16 inches. It comes in white or black.

Could you post pics or drawings showing how/what you did?