The Oracle Answers

Hermith · 02 Jul 2014, 20:44

Didn't see his post at first. I'm using the standard WASDKeyboards puller. One of these:

Muirium · 02 Jul 2014, 20:48

Hmm. Sounds like you're doing all the right things. Have these switches been opened up before, or mistreated in some way?

Hermith · 02 Jul 2014, 20:51

Just a bunch of MX Clears I bought from 7bit. They all seem consistently tight. I tried with a third cap type now (Ducky Mini stocks) and same bevahiour. Maybe MX Clears are just really tight?

Muirium · 02 Jul 2014, 20:57

I have heard about this, come to think. But I didn't think it was as profound. Maybe the stem is a bit bigger or grippier on the caps? Odd. I've a few clears now myself (thanks to Julle) so I'd better watch out when I put them to use!

Hermith · 02 Jul 2014, 21:01

I tried with a few caps from my GF's G710+ and those came off pretty easily, but those almost fall off the keyboard if you hold it upsidedown on hers, so I don't think that counts.

Hermith · 02 Jul 2014, 21:02

Now I feel like I should have plated my keyboard. PCB mount switches can be plate switches if you just clip off the plastic stems, right?

Muirium · 02 Jul 2014, 21:03

You can plate mount both kinds of MX, yes, and don't even need to clip the plastic pins unless they get in the way.

BUT! What keyboard are you talking about?

Hermith · 02 Jul 2014, 21:05

My keyboard.

Muirium · 02 Jul 2014, 21:07

Right, good, you're in control! A plate is probably just what you need, then. If you can figure out how to mount the plate in your case.

If you need one laser cut (aluminium or steel) Matt3o's the man…

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/grou ... t7474.html

Hermith · 04 Jul 2014, 19:16

Thanks. I think a plate is a long way off economically wise.

By the way, I straightened the few crooked switches now and I'm populating the board with keycaps. I have two MX Greens on the board, and on those the caps come off normally. So it seems MX Clears are some chubby fuckers.

Madhias · 06 Jul 2014, 21:24

Oh great Oracle, is it a crime and ethically bad to floss mod an IBM Model M keyboard? What would one then have to sacrifice to appease the gods?

Hypersphere · 06 Jul 2014, 22:31

madhias wrote: ↑Oh great Oracle, is it a crime and ethically bad to floss mod an IBM Model M keyboard? What would one then have to sacrifice to appease the gods?

Probably so. I should think that at the very least your penance would be to floss your teeth twice per day while chanting fifty times, "Floss is for teeth, not for IBMs"

klick · 12 Jul 2014, 10:47

Hi all!

I'm looking for a new keyboard. Currently I have Filco Ninja TKL with browns, but I'd like to switch to blues, since I love the clicky sound and feel.
Basically I'm looking for ISO/ANSI MX blue tenkeyless keyboard without lightning, and I don't care about the keycap material or the way it's printed (side/top), since I'll be switching it for blanks anyway.

Now, I could've just bought another Filco, but since discovering that CM QuickFire Rapid/Stealth is pretty much the same thing for 1/3 the price, it's obvious what I'd like - the only problem is I can't get it in Europe, and the shipping rates from US were 100$+, after checking a few stores.

So, would anyone know a good alternative to the Filco and Quickfires, or simply a US store which would have reasonable shipping rates to Europe?

Muirium · 12 Jul 2014, 16:13

Hmm. CM is the obvious way to go in America, but over here they fragment their product line by different countries. I gather that Germany only gets MX brown QFRs, and that's no way to live! Perhaps some country or another gets MX blue…

There are other manufacturers just as good as Filco, Ducky comes to mind, but the price isn't as good as CM's in the US, of course. I'd either go for a lightly used keyboard via the Marketplace here, or consider something from Keycool, Noppoo, and the other cheaper makes, depending on how important new is to you.

beltet · 22 Jul 2014, 21:14

klick wrote: ↑Hi all!

I'm looking for a new keyboard. Currently I have Filco Ninja TKL with browns, but I'd like to switch to blues, since I love the clicky sound and feel.
Basically I'm looking for ISO/ANSI MX blue tenkeyless keyboard without lightning, and I don't care about the keycap material or the way it's printed (side/top), since I'll be switching it for blanks anyway.

Now, I could've just bought another Filco, but since discovering that CM QuickFire Rapid/Stealth is pretty much the same thing for 1/3 the price, it's obvious what I'd like - the only problem is I can't get it in Europe, and the shipping rates from US were 100$+, after checking a few stores.

So, would anyone know a good alternative to the Filco and Quickfires, or simply a US store which would have reasonable shipping rates to Europe?

We have it in sweden:
http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=1581511

But the SEK is quite strong, so not sure if it would be cheaper. And you problaby have to use proxy.
Btw, what country are you from?

EDIT: forget it... I translated it to USD and it was 123,88... EUR 91,67

the1onewolf · 31 Jul 2014, 04:29

Oracle Oracle,the wisest and most gracious Oracle.

I'm looking for a nice TKL keyboard to supplement my RealForce 87u. It'll be used mostly for gaming, because it's hard to FPS with topre.

The Keyed Up Labs ES 87 and Leopold 750R caught my eye.
What have you heard about these new boards?

The KUL because it’s heavily endorsed by Brian at EK and 750R because of its keycaps and it’s Leopold (the non-stagnant cherry stabilizer using sister of Filco – just kidding).

The KUL ES-87 looks like it’s all about the quality. It’s got a bit of that Filco je ne sais quoi going on (I mean aside from the ugly keycaps) and the price point ($130) certainly reflects that. It has dip switches ... woah! The thing is once you factor in some PBT keycaps from a group buy you're going to be spending an amount just a bit shy of 200 bucks.

The Leopold 750R on the other hand comes with nice, glorious PBT caps and has a sound dampening mat. I think they even standardized their spacebar too! The only downside is that there are no immediate suppliers in the states.

The KUL is priced around 130 USD give or take and the Leopold 750R is priced around 120-130 USD + international shipping. In my mind it seems like the Leopold 750R is a much better deal (Thick glorious pbt caps) assuming you can have it shipped to you for a reasonable price.

Most computers in my house use windows but we might be getting 1-2 macs in the foreseeable future - so those dip switches might come in handy (not sure if the real-force is fully compatible with a mac machine).
Give me your advice oh wise Oracle!

Muirium · 31 Jul 2014, 13:42

Macs are no problem. You can reassign mods by going into System Preferences > Keyboard > Modifier Keys…

Yosemite (2014):

: Screen Shot 2014-07-31 at 12.44.19 pm.png (225.65 KiB) Viewed 5380 times

Back on Leopard (2007):

The setting is specific to each keyboard. (My Ducky Shine 3 just calls itself "Keyboard" but there's a unique ID behind that which actually does the work.) So I don't even bother with jumpers my the keyboards that have them. Although iOS lacks this, so the iPad does still want a jumper to swap Windows and Alt (Command and Option).

As for those boards: what are you really after? Quietness? Solid build? What's the priority? I assume you're talking about MX reds…

Hypersphere · 31 Jul 2014, 17:29

@the1onewolf: The Kul might not be the most exciting keyboard out there, but I am favorably impressed with its apparent quality and features. It would be no problem to use it with either a PC or a Mac. Indeed, I have used all sorts of keyboards with my Mac, including IBM AT, XT, Model M101, and Model M SSK, as well as contemporary boards such as the CM QFR.

the1onewolf · 31 Jul 2014, 20:41

Thanks for your replies!

I'll be using Cherry MX Reds.
My main consideration at the moment is which board uses higher quality component and is constructed well (solid build quality).

I think what I am asking in a sense boils down to is the KUL ES-87 worth the price? Does it use high quality components and does the build quality justify the relatively high price. I'm a little turned away from the ES-87 because of thin ABS caps - especially nowadays where Ducky, Leopold and others are starting to incorporate stock PBT keycaps with their $120-140 boards. I feel like the $130 KUL is really expensive for what it offers.

It's kind of like the age-old should I get a Filco or something else argument and is Filco actually worth it? Filcos,if you remember, were $140-150, QFRs were much cheaper at $80-90 and Rose-wills were even cheaper! Back then, I think Filco did have a solid advantage over some of its lower priced competitors but that's slowly been marginalized as new guys like Ducky and old guys like Leopold have become much more innovative and greatly improved their quality. Now I think Filco is just generally overpriced and stagnant. I’m not actually capping on Filco because I’ve owned two of their boards and I really liked them but the ratio of quality to price is always worth considering – especially because you can go much higher with a custom board and stuff like that.

I’m also most definitely going to replace these thin abs caps on the KUL with blank thick PBTS caps so that will add to the cost of this already high price board. I've seen a few reviews (there aren't really that many) and most people to seem to agree that this is a high quality board albeit with some new purchase bias

I think my decision process is kind of like this:
1) Get an expensive custom board
2) Get a $130-150 board then buy a set of thick PBT keycaps for a total of $200
3) Get a $130 board which comes with thick PBT keycaps.

I think if we go option 2, the build quality of that keyboard better be miles ahead of the build quality in option 3.
So in this case, is the KUL 87 significantly built better than the Leopold 750?

The Leopold on the other hand already comes with thick PBT caps so that factors into the decision calculus. Although, please don't take this to mean that I've already made up my mind. I don't mind spending $ if it's actually warranted on the solid build quality.

Muirium · 31 Jul 2014, 21:19

I'll wear my bias right in my sleeve: I'm not impressed by KUL. They seem to be aiming for Filco, while acting like Ducky, Leopold, etc. don't exist. Also, they're aiming at Filco's oldest board: the MJ2. Filco is ahead of everyone else with Bluetooth in the Minila Air. I don't know what's keeping them from putting it in a TKL, but I consider that a real killer feature.

Ducky's PBT boards are, in my indeed biased opinion, the pick of the crop in the MX world. I'd go for one of those, in cream cheese and green! While keeping my other eye on caps GBs, of course. Goodness knows there's good stuff coming that way nowadays.

the1onewolf · 31 Jul 2014, 22:28

Indeed! I was so stoked for the TKL version of the Ducky 9008P Premier at the beginning of the year ... only 1 never came out.

It's quite funny actually when you are looking at what to buy that the Premier is 130 bucks and the keycaps (bought separately) are 66.00 bucks - practically half the price of the keyboard.

noobie94 · 31 Jul 2014, 22:30

I just bought the keycaps and put them on my Shine 3

SL89 · 31 Jul 2014, 22:33

Muirium wrote: ↑I'll wear my bias right in my sleeve: I'm not impressed by KUL. They seem to be aiming for Filco, while acting like Ducky, Leopold, etc. don't exist. Also, they're aiming at Filco's oldest board: the MJ2. Filco is ahead of everyone else with Bluetooth in the Minila Air. I don't know what's keeping them from putting it in a TKL, but I consider that a real killer feature.

Correct me if im wrong but the WASD / CODE's are built by the same OEMs as Filco correct? Has anyone figured out who is the OEM for KUL?

Muirium · 31 Jul 2014, 23:18

I've no idea. Think Ducky manufactures in Taiwan, though. Anyway, an OEM may literally manufacture it, but more things make a keyboard. Even a good OEM can dial down the quality if asked. And I presume vice versa, to some extent. A design is a design.

SL89 · 01 Aug 2014, 16:38

Muirium wrote: ↑I've no idea. Think Ducky manufactures in Taiwan, though. Anyway, an OEM may literally manufacture it, but more things make a keyboard. Even a good OEM can dial down the quality if asked. And I presume vice versa, to some extent. A design is a design.

I totally agree, but i have to imagine gunning for Filco would be quite the uphill battle especially if they are using an OEM outside of the ecosystem, i have to imagine that Filcos are made in one wing, WASDs in another and possible Kuls in yet another part of the same organization. Kul seems to me as a bit of a WASD alternative but only in the Coca Cola Vs. Pepsi sort of way. I really want to try a KUL board against my Code's but alas, no fullsize options yet.

760 mmHg · 10 Aug 2014, 18:38

Oh mighty Oracle,

I'm starting a new job relying heavily on typing all day long at a rather fast pace for my taste (75 WPM maximum, in French). The keyboard provided with the position (Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600) is rather uncomfortable and inefficient but silent enough to work in the "open space".

I read the wiki, I looked around, but alas I did not find the keyboard that would fit my needs.

Here are my criteria :

Typing usage
Price $0-$150+ (not really a criterion in my case)
Windows operating system
Bonus point if no drivers are necessary as I don't need any special keys or functionalities
AZERTY layout with numerical keypad
Mechanical keyboard preferred
Very silent
USB, no extra USB hub on keyboard necessary
Shipping to France possible

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Pray for us, beginners,

760 mmHg

Muirium · 10 Aug 2014, 18:51

Quietness is key? Good to see you've picked a top priority, as that makes suggestions easier. Everything else you ask for is quite reasonable and widespread. Most mechanical keyboards are indeed USB, require no drivers, and have no internal hub. AZERTY is fairly widespread too.

Does this sound quiet enough to you?

MX reds are the quietest of Cherry's popular MX switches. That keyboard (my Ducky Shine 3) combines MX reds with quiet Cherry stabilisers (wires to keep the space bar and other large keys level) which results in a nice, fairly quiet, keyboard. Any brand of MX red keyboard with Cherry stabs ought to be similar in sound. Here's my review if you want a load more details:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/ducky ... t7130.html

But there are mechanical keyboards which are quieter still. Matias sells silenced switches, which have dampers to remove the clacking sound of "topping out" that you can hear in the Cherry video. Matias keyboards are middling in price (and not especially well made) but are very quiet indeed if you pick the right model.

And at the highest end of all is Topre's Type S silenced switches. Like Matias they have internal dampers. But they are smooth as butter, and really very expensive. I'm not even aware if there are Azerty Type S keyboards, but here is a standard Topre (without the damping) to give you an idea:

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/fren ... yboard.asp

760 mmHg · 10 Aug 2014, 19:05

That is an impressively fast and exhaustive answer!

I think I have all the information I need in my hands now, and even if the Topre keyboards are expensive…they sound like heaven…

I have some thinking and some budgeting to do now!

Thank you very much, you've been really helpful.

760 mmHg

Hypersphere · 10 Aug 2014, 20:15

@760 mmHg: I like your 1 atm moniker and the fact that it harks back to the days when real instruments contained pools of mercury. I think that "the keyboard company" has keyboards with the layout and other specs that you are seeking. (Typed on my HHKB Pro 2).

kbdfr · 10 Aug 2014, 20:26

As "quietness" is a fairly subjective criterion when taken in absolute and not relative terms,
I would suggest the first thing to do is to define how "silent", as you put it, the Microsoft keyboard provided is.
Then you will be able to compare.

It is not unusual for people who don't know mechanical keyboards to assume they are much louder than others
(due, inter alia, to the boring perpetual praising of "clicky" IBM boards, which allegedly were designed to reproduce the noise made by a typewriter).

I for one type all day on Cherry blacks and do not find them that much louder than rubberdome keyboards I had the opportunity to use.
So perhaps it would be a good idea if, before investing heavily in something which may by far exceed your requirements,
you would first get cheap used boards and give them a try in you real environment.

I am quite certain DT members living in France would be ready to lend you AZERTY boards.
You could ask in the French section:
http://deskthority.net/en-francais-f21/

(et, bien sûr, bienvenue sur DT

)