RF 87u 55 gram Topre

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Hypersphere

13 Aug 2014, 21:34

Unable to withstand any longer not knowing what the RF87u 55g is like without actually trying it, I went ahead with the order. The board arrived today, and I have done some preliminary tests. I got the black version, with the intent of swapping out at least the alpha keycaps for black-on-white, either from a HHKB Pro 2 set or eventually from another RF board.

First impressions: Solid feel; handsome looks. Glad I went with the all-55g; the keys feel just right -- not at all too heavy. The key action is quieter than that of the HHKB Pro 2. Nevertheless, against the quiet background of the RF, the slightest noise (upstroke clack) asserts itself. It might be worth going for the silent version -- if it were available in a uniform 55-g weighting. I am quite sure I would not like the variable weight model.

The first thing I did was to connect the RF to my Mac and use the KeyRemap4MacBook (now Karabiner) software to remap the keys to a HHKB Pro 2 configuration. I was even able to remap the Windows Menu key to Fn, so that I could have all my HHKB features, such as the [/;' cursor diamond, despite the presence of arrow keys on the RF.

One pleasant surprise was that Karabiner includes a couple of built-in hacks to activate the NumLock and embedded NumPad. It was fun to hit Fn+Esc and see the blue NumLock LED light up. Moreover, the embedded NumPad actually works. I doubt I will use this feature much, but it's good to know it is available.

The RF looks and sounds better than the HHKB, but I still prefer the 60% form factor of the HHKB and the fact that its layout is hard-wired. Although I can remap the RF using Mac software, I also use Linux and sometimes Windows machines. Most of the time I connect to the non-Mac machines via the Mac using Synergy software. However, there are times when I need a direct connection, and at those times it is preferable to use a keyboard whose layout is hard-wired.

If it were possible to install Soarer's Converter in a USB keyboard, I would be tempted to do so in the RF; I could then give it a detachable cable in the bargain.

Overall, I really like the RF. Next task -- replace the Windows bubble keys with black Opt/Alt keys from a HHKB set. On black keys, those bubbles have the menacing dull look of a shark's eyes that I find unsettling.

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Muirium
µ

13 Aug 2014, 21:35

I wouldn't be surprised to find you swapping the rubber sheet from your 55g to a Type-S Realforce someday!

The HHKB still looks the more refined board to me, though. In the brief time I borrowed both, the HHKB kept its lead in person.
detto87 wrote: Hey there! RF 55g arrived! :)

I didn't have to pay more than the total price mentioned on elitekeyboards which made it even less pricier than keyboardco! Guess the FedEx shipping costs included the customs already.
Which country, Detto? If they really handle customs as well as that, I might be convinced to get one the same way after all.

detto87

13 Aug 2014, 21:57

Germany. 210€ in total.

The thing I really like too about the 55g keys on the RF: even typing slowly (so, no Typeracer ;)) feels ploppy and satisfying which the HHKB cannot offer with the 45g keys. Makes it more of a pleasure in general desktop usage, using shortcuts and the like.

I still have my blank black and blank white keyset for the HHKB.
Maybe I'll use em or I'll sell em. So far I dig the look of the white 87U.
Last edited by detto87 on 13 Aug 2014, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Hypersphere

13 Aug 2014, 22:00

@Muirium: In what way does the HHKB look more refined to you? Perhaps you are not impressed with the appearance of the RF, because it is "just another TKL board". However, to my eye and touch, the RF looks and feels refined.

Nevertheless, I am not quite satisfied with the RF. For me, as you have correctly surmised, the ideal board would have the following characteristics: 60% form factor, HHKB Pro 2 layout, steel plate, 55g Type-S Topre switches, detachable USB-C cable. Possibly a BT option.

And maybe instead of 55g Topre switches, capacitive buckling springs.

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Muirium
µ

13 Aug 2014, 22:03

detto87 wrote: Germany. 210€ in total.
Taking the white 55g RF TKL to checkout just now, and selecting UK as the country, comes to $272.86 USD or 204 Euros. But I do wonder how the customs works. Guess I'll ask EK, sometime when I have anything like the money!

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Muirium
µ

13 Aug 2014, 22:13

Hypersphere wrote: @Muirium: In what way does the HHKB look more refined to you? Perhaps you are not impressed with the appearance of the RF, because it is "just another TKL board". However, to my eye and touch, the RF looks and feels refined.
Comparing TKLs to TKLs:
Image
Looks bulky compared to this:

Image

They're both powered by Topre controllers, so the comparison is fair and direct. The Realforce has a lot of extra space up top that I don't like. And the NovaTouch has a Micro-USB socket instead of a fixed cable, which I appreciate too.

To my eye the Realforce's body is dated and in need of a refresh. Topre are involved with the NovaTouch, so they know what's possible now. Hopefully they have something just as compact of their own in the works. Bluetooth wouldn't hurt, either!

The HHKB has a classier, more elemental design, physically speaking as well as its ideal layout. Could still be improved, but such is life and its search for perfection.

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Hypersphere

13 Aug 2014, 22:46

@Muirium: Oddly enough, I had a similar impression of the RF that I had gained from looking at the images on the EK site. Yet, when I finally saw the actual RF on my desk, even when sitting next to my HHKB, the RF looked slimmer than I had expected. And perhaps because of the nearly blank keycaps on the black RF, it looked less cluttered than my HHKB with its white keys and black case.

Indeed, the keycaps on the HHKB Pro 2 do not look as good to me as those on my IBM boards. It is both, the size of the font and the color scheme. Both the gray and white keys need more of a warm tone.

I will work on my RF a bit, playing with some keycap schemes, and see what I think after living with it a while.

In your comparison of the RF and the Novatouch with its Granite keycaps, to me the Novatouch looks too busy. And with its lighter-colored keycaps, the asymmetry inherent in TKL boards is more apparent with the Novatouch.

I think we are both heavily swayed by the lovely symmetry of the HHKB Pro 2. It is not a perfect symmetry --it is broken symmetry in several ways, but the prevailing overall scheme is a symmetrical one.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

14 Aug 2014, 00:01

Topre tried their hand at modernising the look of their keyboards with the Type Heaven which might be considered a step in the right direction by some, but I prefer the "collar" on my Realforce :)
The Realforce was introduced in 2001, but the same basic shape of the board has been around since at least 1996. Like a polo shirt, the drab design of the Realforce and the G80-3000 is timeless, but I think at least with the former we're going to see a refresh in the future.

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Hypersphere

14 Aug 2014, 02:14

@002 and @Murium: I have now moved back to my home office (and moved my new RF87u with me). There seems to be an optical illusion regarding the appearance of the top bezel on this board -- it looks much larger in the EK images than it does on my desk. It might be due in part to the fact that the keyboard and keycaps are black, and so are my desktop and extra large perixx mousepad. In any event, I think the keyboard looks elegant (apart from the horrible Win-bubble keys!).

The RF87u also feels and sounds much more solid than my HHKB Pro 2. Moreover, I still maintain that it looks better than the HHKB -- I think this has to do with the size of the font and the coloring of the HHKB keycaps. The feel and sound of the RF87u is closer to that of the Leopold FC660C than it is to the HHKB Pro 2.

However, when we come back to form factor -- and the related symmetry factor -- I do prefer the 60% form factor and symmetrical appearance of the HHKB. And the coup de grace of the HHKB is its celebrated layout. Although I can mimic this on the RF87u via Karabiner software while it is attached to my Mac, it would be nice to have the layout built-in, which is an argument for using the HHKB Pro 2 in the first place. Indeed, I find that the navigation island and top row of F-keys on the RF87u goes largely ignored -- everything I need is embodied in the HHKB Pro 2 layout, achieved virtually with Karabiner or in actuality by instead using the HHKB Pro 2.

detto87

14 Aug 2014, 08:37


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Muirium
µ

14 Aug 2014, 12:54

True. There's nothing hideous about the Realforce, and I'm sure it looked good and sleek when its design first shipped, but I appreciate the HHKB's compactness much more. In person, as well as in pictures.

Image

The M0110 that the HHKB is based on has quite a big frame, too. All the better for stowing under a classic Mac. But the HHKB itself is admirably elemental.

As for caps, I'll have you know these Granite caps are aftermarket, and worth about the same as the NovaTouch! Naturally, I love them to bits as I had a hand in the design and tweaked many details along with Master Matteo. The freedom to use whatever you want is the NovaTouch's raison d'être. For those of us as mad about caps (and we are many…) the NovaTouch is an excellent canvas. All you see is caps! Uncharacteristically, CM's branding is subtler than the HHKB's or Topre's own:

Image

I do like the profile and feel of Realforce and HHKB caps. Good job, too. But the Realforce's legends are downright janky compared to the HHKB's. The little 60% has some of the most thoughtfully laid out legends I've ever seen. While the Realforces are higgeldy piggeldy. The font is right, the process is right, and the feel of the caps themselves is excellent. But I can't help but be reminded of my decades old NMB whose thick PBT dyesubs wear their Helvetica more the way the HHKB does:

Image

I'd rate the HHKB supreme for all keyboards with Helvetica legends. The NMB is close. Then the Realforce and IBM jostle for how to squeeze in a touch too much besides!
Last edited by Muirium on 14 Aug 2014, 13:02, edited 2 times in total.

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TheNacho
delicious.

14 Aug 2014, 13:00

I just ordered a RF55 gram, and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival. If it is good, I have something to replace that hideous, cheap Logitech in the office :D

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Muirium
µ

14 Aug 2014, 13:03

Ought to be quite the upgrade! Hopefully no one realises how much it's worth and cares to walk off with it…

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TheNacho
delicious.

14 Aug 2014, 13:20

If someone does, I will get the Model M from home and annoy everyone until I get it back :D

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Hypersphere

14 Aug 2014, 23:40

Muirium wrote: True. There's nothing hideous about the Realforce, and I'm sure it looked good and sleek when its design first shipped, but I appreciate the HHKB's compactness much more. In person, as well as in pictures.
<snip>
The M0110 that the HHKB is based on has quite a big frame, too. All the better for stowing under a classic Mac. But the HHKB itself is admirably elemental.

As for caps, I'll have you know these Granite caps are aftermarket, and worth about the same as the NovaTouch! Naturally, I love them to bits as I had a hand in the design and tweaked many details along with Master Matteo. The freedom to use whatever you want is the NovaTouch's raison d'être. For those of us as mad about caps (and we are many…) the NovaTouch is an excellent canvas. All you see is caps! Uncharacteristically, CM's branding is subtler than the HHKB's or Topre's own:
<snip>
I do like the profile and feel of Realforce and HHKB caps. Good job, too. But the Realforce's legends are downright janky compared to the HHKB's. The little 60% has some of the most thoughtfully laid out legends I've ever seen. While the Realforces are higgeldy piggeldy. The font is right, the process is right, and the feel of the caps themselves is excellent. But I can't help but be reminded of my decades old NMB whose thick PBT dyesubs wear their Helvetica more the way the HHKB does:
<snip>
I'd rate the HHKB supreme for all keyboards with Helvetica legends. The NMB is close. Then the Realforce and IBM jostle for how to squeeze in a touch too much besides!
I agree about the excellent feel of the RF caps. However, we differ somewhat on the aesthetics of fonts on various keyboards.

I never did quite like the legends on my HHKB Pro 2. To my eye, IBM has much more pleasing legends.

The legends on IBM boards vary somewhat from one model to the next, and even across nationalities within the same model. I haven't decided which microvariant of IBM legends I like the most, but I prefer the legends on any of my IBMs to those on the HHKB Pro 2. There's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

Today I decided to make my all-black RF more legible by installing an extra set of white HHKB caps on it, keeping the black modifiers and using some black-on-black HHKB caps to replace the Alt and Win keys with Command and Opt and to replace the Win menu with Fn. Unfortunately, for the top-row F-keys and the navigation island, all I had were sets of RF caps in orange and yellow. When I had finished with this, my previously refined black-on-black RF was legible all right, but I needed sunglasses to look at it, even in the dark.

Oddly enough, apart from the Hallowe'en colors, one of the most jarring things about my repopulated board was the HHKB alpha keys. Perhaps they are just too white, but in addition, the font seems just a tad too large, and the lettering on the front of the keys makes the board look cluttered.

I might save my pennies and spring for a white RF, swapping original caps with the black one to yield a white case with black keys and a white case with black keys. I would use the one with white caps for legibility and the one with black caps for that far off day when I finally learn to touch type. One for the home office; one for the day job.

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Muirium
µ

15 Aug 2014, 00:16

White boards with black keys don't look right to me. But then I don't like black boards with black keys either, unless they're blank. Both the black HHKB and Realforce seem farcical to me. Dyesub can't handle dark plastic like that! Go blank, guys, go blank…

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Hypersphere

15 Aug 2014, 00:43

Muirium wrote: White boards with black keys don't look right to me. But then I don't like black boards with black keys either, unless they're blank. Both the black HHKB and Realforce seem farcical to me. Dyesub can't handle dark plastic like that! Go blank, guys, go blank…
You have an admiration for the pure forms of things. It is like the search for the perfect table -- a free-floating surface without legs or wires to hold it up.

Considering keyboards as art, I do appreciate the look of blanks. I might populate my boards with them if I didn't need to peek at the legends once in a while to be sure of symbols that seem to hop from one key to another to keep me confused.

Now I am back to typing on my HHKB Pro 2 -- the one with the black case and white/gray caps. Apart from the intrinsic issues that I have with the size of the font, there are other things I don't like about the look of this board. Perhaps there is too much contrast between the black case and white keys. There is even too much contrast between the black legends and white background on each keycap; the background ought to be more of a cream color, and the gray mods ought to be more of a golden sand color.

One reason I went for the black case is that I don't like very light-colored keyboard cases. But black is the other extreme. Case colors ought to be something not occupying one extreme or the other of white or black.

This notion of ideal contrast might be why certain keyboard have aesthetic appeal for me, such as the Northgate Omnikey or the Dolch keyboard.

Alas, any real keyboard will fail somehow to be the Platonic archetype of perfect keyboardness.

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the1onewolf

15 Aug 2014, 01:15

Muirium wrote: White boards with black keys don't look right to me. But then I don't like black boards with black keys either, unless they're blank. Both the black HHKB and Realforce seem farcical to me. Dyesub can't handle dark plastic like that! Go blank, guys, go blank…
I would've bought blanks if Realforce came with em in the States.
Whatever, it's not like I can read the black on black dyesub anyways.
These are essentially a rich man's blanks.

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Hypersphere

15 Aug 2014, 01:23

I suspect that Muirium is right about the farcical nature of the black-on-black keycaps. They are like the Emperor's new clothes.

Nevertheless, I may put the black-on-black caps back on my RF. The HHKB whites surrounded by candy corn is a truly garish combination. In low light, I can pretend to be cool -- the original caps look like blanks; but if I need to peek at the legends, I can switch on my ultraviolet flashlight and cheat.

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Hypersphere

17 Aug 2014, 21:21

Muirium wrote: True. There's nothing hideous about the Realforce, and I'm sure it looked good and sleek when its design first shipped, but I appreciate the HHKB's compactness much more. In person, as well as in pictures.
<snip> <snip>

Update: I've removed the yellow and orange RF keycaps that had occupied the F-key row and navigation island, replacing them with the black-on-black originals. However, at present I have kept the HHKB keycaps on the alpha keys and number row. The board looks much better now. although I still don't like the appearance of the HHKB keycaps; to my eye, IBM's keycaps are much more attractive (as are a number of others, e.g., ADDS/white bears, NMB/angry black bears, Chicony/blue Alps).

While I like the solid feel of the RF, given that I have remapped it to the HHKB layout (via Karabiner software on my Mac), I find that I am using only the keys that correspond to those on the HHKB. The top F-key row and the navigation island lie fallow in their black-on-black obscurity.

Now I need to decide if the solid feel, somewhat heavier key action, and the option to use the F-keys, navigation island, and embedded numeric keypad on the RF outweigh the 60% form factor, detachable USB cable, and built-in layout of the HHKB.

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TheNacho
delicious.

19 Aug 2014, 19:23

My 55g Realforce just arrived too. First impression: The difference to the 45g switches I tried is bigger than I expected it to be but I like it. Being used to the heaviness of a Model M I think I can cope with this. Office test will come up during the next weeks. I just hope my colleagues can stand the sound of a proper keyboard :D

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Muirium
µ

19 Aug 2014, 19:36

EK or KC? I'm still to see a white one ordered from Keyboard Co.

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Hypersphere

19 Aug 2014, 19:37

TheNacho wrote: My 55g Realforce just arrived too. First impression: The difference to the 45g switches I tried is bigger than I expected it to be but I like it. Being used to the heaviness of a Model M I think I can cope with this. Office test will come up during the next weeks. I just hope my colleagues can stand the sound of a proper keyboard :D
Did you get the black or white version? Either way, how do you like the keycaps?

I've found my RF 87u 55g (Black) to be noticeably quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 and certainly quieter than my Model M SSK or my Model F XT.

With respect to sound and feel, I like the RF better than the HHKB. However, given that I've remapped (via Karabiner software on my Mac) the RF to the HHKB/Mac layout, I really don't use the F-keys or navigation cluster keys on the RF. If the HHKB had the sound and feel of the RF, the choice would be a no-brainer. With no clear winner, I may just alternate between the two (although the XT will be in the mix as well --there is no substitute for a capacitive buckling spring switch).

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TheNacho
delicious.

19 Aug 2014, 22:38

Hypersphere wrote:
TheNacho wrote: My 55g Realforce just arrived too. First impression: The difference to the 45g switches I tried is bigger than I expected it to be but I like it. Being used to the heaviness of a Model M I think I can cope with this. Office test will come up during the next weeks. I just hope my colleagues can stand the sound of a proper keyboard :D
Did you get the black or white version? Either way, how do you like the keycaps?

I've found my RF 87u 55g (Black) to be noticeably quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 and certainly quieter than my Model M SSK or my Model F XT.

With respect to sound and feel, I like the RF better than the HHKB. However, given that I've remapped (via Karabiner software on my Mac) the RF to the HHKB/Mac layout, I really don't use the F-keys or navigation cluster keys on the RF. If the HHKB had the sound and feel of the RF, the choice would be a no-brainer. With no clear winner, I may just alternate between the two (although the XT will be in the mix as well --there is no substitute for a capacitive buckling spring switch).
I got the black version from KC. Seemingly it would have still been cheaper to go EK, but anyway, it arrived, it's working, I'm happy :D

I like the caps, and they are easier to read than I thought, not that I need it that often, but converting from german ISO to ANSI, I find myself looking a few times more for all the special chars. So far I haven't typed a lot on the RF, but from what I tried so far, I like it.

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Muirium
µ

20 Aug 2014, 02:15

One bonus for buying from Keyboardco: you'll have an easier time with warranty repairs.

ANSI's a pretty big move from ISO-DE. I can move between ANSI and ISO so easily because they're English, either way. (I don't even use ISO-UK on my ISO boards, but Apple's oddball variant that's even closer to ANSI-US anyway. Almost nothing moves.) Must be more of a challenge for languages beyond.

detto87

20 Aug 2014, 04:55

Oh btw, I received a letter from Fedex yesterday concerning the custom charge. So in the end it wasn't that much cheaper than from KC. :D

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TheNacho
delicious.

20 Aug 2014, 16:38

detto87 wrote: Oh btw, I received a letter from Fedex yesterday concerning the custom charge. So in the end it wasn't that much cheaper than from KC. :D
Oh, when I went over the customs limit, I had to go pick up my package from the office myself and pay the taxes there.

But concerning ISO-DE to ANSI: Once I started coding on an ANSI keyboard, I just didn't want to use ISO-DE anymore. All that Alt-Gr nonsense for curly brackets and whatnot just is so unneccessary. And yes, the famous german äüö are a bit more complicated, but thats something I can live with.

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Muirium
µ

20 Aug 2014, 16:48

Pretty trusting of them letting you have the parcel before they come back asking for customs fees! Here in Scotland it's the same way as Nacho says: you have to go pick it up yourself, and ready your wallet. Just with a bit (sometimes a lot) more random on the top. Well worth avoiding when possible.

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TheNacho
delicious.

20 Aug 2014, 17:11

I think here it is 20% of the price including the shipping to the EU, which is why I also try to avoid ordering stuff from the US when I can. Also the last time I did order something from the US, I noticed when I got the parcel, that it had been laying there for about a month before I was even notified of its arrival.

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Muirium
µ

20 Aug 2014, 17:24

Yeah, I always obsessively track things and get on the phone to the local depot to chase them down, or it can take ages here too. The system seems to be that anything declared over £30 gets held down in England for a week or two, taxed 20% not including shipping, then sent to the depot across town where I show up and get charged that plus a roll of 4d20…

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