deskthority

Maybe they could point their security camera at their beige model and send you the video feed (naturally, this will be the same camera they used for their web site image).

No doubt the conversation would be much the same if you were to contact EK and ask, "How white is your white RF 87u 55g keyboard?"

That conversation really happened? xD

How difficult can it be to compare two pictures and say that their own is too dark/tinted..?
It has to be the same white, otherwise the model numer would be different.

Didn't happen. But it's what I expect. Maybe they're cool enough to play along (honestly, most retailers here are not!) but I haven't the patience.

@Muirium: We are all waiting with bated breath to discover if the real conversation will duplicate the predictions! You must be curious to find out what they would really say. If you will contact KC, I will contact EK.

For what it's worth, I bit the bullet (and sold my house, car, soul etc.) and bought one from KC a couple of weeks ago.

The colour is as white as it appears in the EliteKeyboards photo, not beige like the KC photos. I'd take a photo of mine but my potato camera and bad lighting wouldn't do it any justice.

As for the keyboard itself, I absolutely love it. The build quality is phenomenal (sturdy, heavy as a brick, no flex). The keys sound and feel great. Depending on which keyboard you are coming from, it might take a day or two to adapt to the Topre switches. They felt a little stiff to me at first but I can't get enough of them now that I've broken them in.

As an aside, it's worth noting that the sticker on the back now has the Topre logo instead of the Leopold logo that is shown in the EliteKeyboards photo. Makes me wonder if Topre are manufacturing and distributing the 55g themselves instead of through Leopold like previously...

Hurrah! Thanks for the confirmation, Rocket. I can get one locally then after all! (Once I have been through similar hoops for money, of course…)

Topre makes all the Realforces, no matter who else's badge winds up underneath. They OEM for other companies (including Fujitsu/PFU for the HHKB if I understand correctly, and I suppose the µTRON) so the change from Leopold's branding back to Topre's will be entirely cosmetic. Perhaps Leopold's exclusive on the all-55g weighting they commissioned ran out. I'd rather have an "all native" Topre Realforce anyway, even if it is academic!

The NovaTouch is where things get interesting. The prototype PCB is Topre badged and manufactured, but the production models remain to be seen.

Good luck with the 55g Realforce! Assuming it's the white 55g ANSI TKL with legends, that is the precise model of Topre I would order for myself, available in Britain.

EK got back to me within minutes of posting an email inquiry about the colors. Here is their reply:

"[The true color] is much closer to ours, though I'll admit ours are a little washed out due to the bright lighting in the photo studio being calibrated for mostly black keyboards. It's slightly more gray-beige in color, more gray than beige, but Keyboardco's photos have an absence of lighting making it look ... yellow. I'll see if we can have our photos re-taken soon ...."

"BTW, Topre's official name for this keyboard is white."

I hope this helps.

Both stories line up. I'm pretty comfortable now that if I buy a Realforce domestically it won't be any more off-white than my IBMs.

Now if only the Keyboard Co. could see how misleading their product photography is. Maybe all that yellow on their website is screwing with their eyes…

Small update: I've had my 55gr Topre for a week now and I think I am at the point of really getting used to it right now. I still do the occasional "I'm used to DE-ISO and this keyboard is US-ANSI" mistake, but from the overall typing experience it is great. The price is rather steep, but if this keyboard keeps working for a few years, I will be more than happy.

A few years? I get cross when things break in under 10. Every one of my IBMs is over 20…

Long term investments! From what I've seen Topres put up with, yours should be fine for the long haul too.

Well, I didn't specify 'few'

The only thing missing right now would be 5 MX compatible sliders, so I could put on my nice metal arrow keys and NERV keycap, but that wait, 5€ per is a but too expensive just for being able to put on a cap

TheNacho wrote: ↑Small update: I've had my 55gr Topre for a week now and I think I am at the point of really getting used to it right now. I still do the occasional "I'm used to DE-ISO and this keyboard is US-ANSI" mistake, but from the overall typing experience it is great. The price is rather steep, but if this keyboard keeps working for a few years, I will be more than happy.

It sounds as if your main adjustment is US-ANSI vs DE-ISO and that you like the 55g Topre experience.

Likewise, I am thoroughly enjoying my black RF 87u 55g. I've had the keyboard a few days, duing which time I have swapped out the black alphanumeric caps for white and changed the layout to HHKB/Mac. I like the sound and feel of the RF as much or more than my IBM XT and better than my HHKB Pro 2. The RF sounds and feels like it is worth the price, and currently it is my favorite board at home. I am seriously considering buying another RF 87u 55g for my work office.

Because I also very much like the 60% form factor and layout of my HHKB Pro 2, I have thought of attempting to get the sound and feel of the RF in the smaller board by installing 55g domes, but it would still lack a steel plate. The sound and perhaps the feel of the HHKB would likely be improved by getting a Type-S and then installing 55g domes, but it would still lack a steel plate and this solution would involve surgery on two boards plus considerable expense. While it is not the perfect solution, it seems that the most straightforward way to get the Topre experience I am seeking is with a RF 87u 55g keyboard remapped to a HHKB/Mac layout.

Suggestions for other options are always welcome!

I wouldn't say that Type-S necessarily sounds, let alone feels, better than standard Topre. But it's different, and the price dares you to expect that.

I've only seen it in videos, where it sounds more office friendly than regular Topre. Someone who's used one can speak for the feel. Perhaps the internal damping works like Alps and gives a pleasant (to me) soft touch? Could do. Could not.

Muirium wrote: ↑I wouldn't say that Type-S necessarily sounds, let alone feels, better than standard Topre. But it's different, and the price dares you to expect that.

I've only seen it in videos, where it sounds more office friendly than regular Topre. Someone who's used one can speak for the feel. Perhaps the internal damping works like Alps and gives a pleasant (to me) soft touch? Could do. Could not.

I've seen varying opinions on silent RF and Type-S HHKB. Some say that the silent and Type-S Topre switches have tighter tolerances, but others say that the foam pads have a negative effect on the feel of the switch.

I've heard similar things about the Matias tactile-click vs Matias silenced switches, i.e., that the silenced version is indeed much quieter but that it doesn't feel as good as the clicky version.

Ditto for the homespun versions of silenced Topre switches using dental bands or similar methods.

Thus far, I am finding the sound and feel of the regular RF switches superior to the regular HHKB switches, and the RF does not make me strongly wish that I had opted for their silent variety. That said, given that the price differential for the silent vs normal RF is not all that great, if they made an all-55g silent version, I think I would give it a try. As it is, I doubt I would like the "ergo" weighting, and so I anticipate needing to do a dome transplant in a silent RF, thus sending the cost through the ceiling.

Based on the various opinions expressed here and in related threads on DT and GH, I am inclined to try modding a HHKB to 55g. However, I am undecided about which HHKB to use as a recipient:

1. Standard HHKB.
2. Dental-modded HHKB.
3. Type-S HHKB.

Mitigating against the Type-S: I don't own one and they are very expensive. They also are available only in white. I prefer a black case, and I am not sure if the switch housings can be removed from a Type-S case.

Argument against the normal or dental-modded versions: they aren't Type-S!

Just a note about shipping from EliteKeyboards. I have recently ordered a set of blank HHKB keycaps to remove legends and bubbles from windows and alt keys on my RF87 55g to make it more appropriate for Mac.
Not only shipping was super expensive (58 USD), but I was also charged 23% VAT for importing keycaps (which means extra 18 USD added to a price). This is just ridiculous. 60 keycaps turned out to cost 154 USD (about 120 EUR). 2€ per keycap
But I must say I really like 55 gram Topre. It seems quite consistent and really nice to type on. I rotate it with my ErgoDox and Unicomp SpaceSaver M (first model) as my daily drivers.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑Based on the various opinions expressed here and in related threads on DT and GH, I am inclined to try modding a HHKB to 55g. However, I am undecided about which HHKB to use as a recipient:

1. Standard HHKB.
2. Dental-modded HHKB.
3. Type-S HHKB.

Mitigating against the Type-S: I don't own one and they are very expensive. They also are available only in white. I prefer a black case, and I am not sure if the switch housings can be removed from a Type-S case.

Argument against the normal or dental-modded versions: they aren't Type-S!

Make your own unofficial black case Type-S that's akin to the official one in the white case.
Buy a silent RF KB as donor. Extract the Topre foam silencer rings from switches in RF KB.
Insert silencer rings into HHKB switches. Bam, black HHKB Type-S. EZ, overall time, probably 1.5 to 2 hours.

czarek wrote: ↑Just a note about shipping from EliteKeyboards. I have recently ordered a set of blank HHKB keycaps to remove legends and bubbles from windows and alt keys on my RF87 55g to make it more appropriate for Mac.
Not only shipping was super expensive (58 USD), but I was also charged 23% VAT for importing keycaps (which means extra 18 USD added to a price). This is just ridiculous. 60 keycaps turned out to cost 154 USD (about 120 EUR). 2€ per keycap
But I must say I really like 55 gram Topre. It seems quite consistent and really nice to type on. I rotate it with my ErgoDox and Unicomp SpaceSaver M (first model) as my daily drivers.

I got my HHKB keyset from a guy on ebay and I think it cost me about £60 total, I've ordered a few times from him and he's been really good, great communication, great packing and great prices. Would recomend him to any European Topre/HHKB buyers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/bear84speeed

@HzFaq: It seems that Europeans take a beating from customs/duty/import/VAT, etc. due to the import policies of their countries, and they suffer high shipping costs for items that originate in the USA or Asia. It would be good if solutions could be found for these problems.

Despite these issues, I am glad you are enjoying your RF 87u 55g. I am typing on mine now; it has become my main keyboard in my home office, although I still rotate it with my IBM XT and HHKB Pro 2.

I am noticing that people who like buckling springs also seem to like Topres, especially the 55g variety.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑@HzFaq: It seems that Europeans take a beating from customs/duty/import/VAT, etc. due to the import policies of their countries, and they suffer high shipping costs for items that originate in the USA or Asia. It would be good if solutions could be found for these problems.

The guy I bought from was the solution . I can't remember if he under-declared the caps or marked them as gift, but either way both times I bought from him I didn't get hit with a import duties or a VAT bill. Oh, and there's free tracked shipping on almost all of his (keyboard) products too.

Nice. He's still more expensive, by a good margin, than buying things from EK and shipping to the US. But I wouldn't know anything at all about that…

Today I did a rotation through most of my Cherry mx boards, comparing blues, greens, browns, clears, and blacks. I also put the CM Novatouch into the mix, eventually cycling back to the RF 87u 55g. For each board, I ran some speed and accuracy tests using Typeracer.

Results: Once again, I confirmed that as much as I want to find a Cherry switch that I like, I just don't appreciate the feel or sound of any of the Cherry mx boards. I also tend to make more errors with the lighter Cherry switches, the blues and browns. I warmed up to the clears a bit after initially not liking them at all, and my accuracy and speed were better with clears and greens than with the others. However, I don't enjoy typing on clears or any of the Cherry switches. They feel and sound cheap. The tactile bump in the tactile or tactile/clicky switches just feels like a gritty add-on for the sake of providing tactility rather than serving any real purpose, and yet the lack of a tactile bump in the somewhat overly heavy blacks makes the switch feel insipid. I have yet to try reds, but based on my low speed and high error rate with browns, I suspect my typing performance with the equally light non-tactile reds would be even worse.

The Novatouch was better than any of the Cherry boards, but it felt too light and indefinite.

Coming back to the RF 87u 55g made me realize all over again what I quality machine it is. This keyboard stands well above all the others in this roundup in every way, including appearance, sound, and typing feel. Moreover, I found that my speed and accuracy were significantly better on the RF than any of the other boards.

Apart from the RF 87u 55g, the only other real contenders for daily driver status on my desk are the HHKB Pro 2 and various vintage IBM boards.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑The Novatouch was better than any of the Cherry boards, but it felt too light and indefinite.

Coming back to the RF 87u 55g made me realize all over again what I quality machine it is. This keyboard stands well above all the others in this roundup in every way, including appearance, sound, and typing feel.

What makes the Novatouch worse than a RealForce? Is it just the addition of the MX sliders or are there other differences in the switches? Aren't they supposed to have the same switches?

In short: they rattle a bit. You don't get the Topre thock sound, but hear a slappy plastic sound instead.

Examples I recorded with the same microphone setup:

HHKB Pro 2.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddsmshyc74ozsvz/HHKB.m4a

Topre Realforce.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9rskazvmk2ie ... lforce.m4a

My prototype NovaTouch.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/322vbhb2gdg94bq/NovaTouch.m4a

Apparently the final versions sound much the same. Different caps have an effect, as well as o-rings, but it never sounds quite like Topre. Or feels quite right on the landing, either. But the force curve is otherwise just right.

gioele wrote: ↑

Hypersphere wrote: ↑The Novatouch was better than any of the Cherry boards, but it felt too light and indefinite.

Coming back to the RF 87u 55g made me realize all over again what I quality machine it is. This keyboard stands well above all the others in this roundup in every way, including appearance, sound, and typing feel.

What makes the Novatouch worse than a RealForce? Is it just the addition of the MX sliders or are there other differences in the switches? Aren't they supposed to have the same switches?

My understanding is that Topre produced a new hybrid switch for the CM Novatouch. Definitely the sliders are different; I am not sure about the switch housing. Apparently, the sliders for the Novatouch are made of a different material from that used in other Topre switches. This has resulted in some sliders with a relatively loose fit in the housing and/or with a relatively loose fit of the cruciform stem into some Cherry mx keycaps. However, these are things one notices when testing a keyboard that become less noticeable with daily routine use.

In addition, although I have not done objective measurements, my impression is that the nominal 45g switch weight in the Novatouch is lighter than other 45g Topre switches in products such as the Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, and RF 87u 45g, and they are certainly lighter than those in the RF 87u 55g. I have seen several comments from others indicating that the Novatouch switches feel light. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and the tactile feedback is still there in the Novatouch to help prevent accidental key presses.

To me, the Novatouch is not a bad keyboard, it is just not in the very top echelon in my own subjective rankings that would be occupied by keyboards like the IBM SSK, IBM XT, and RF 87u. To use a car analogy, to me the RF 87u is a luxury sedan such as a Lexus or Mercedes, the HHKB Pro 2 is a capable and fun first-rate sports car, and the Novatouch is a fairly capable Ford sedan. In contrast, most Cherry mx keyboards feel to me like a moped in need of a new engine, but this is a purely subjective opinion based on my own preferences and does not necessarily have anything to do with intrinsic quality.

I'm considering buying a 55g RF, but am worried about the expensive replacement keycaps. How good are PBT caps that come with the board? I'm currently using thick PBTs from imsto, but I seem to have to replace them every 6-9 months. I guess the Topre keycaps are of the same quality, right?

Hordak wrote: ↑I'm considering buying a 55g RF, but am worried about the expensive replacement keycaps. How good are PBT caps that come with the board? I'm currently using thick PBTs from imsto, but I seem to have to replace them every 6-9 months. I guess the Topre keycaps are of the same quality, right?

Topre keycaps are some of the nicest I have seen. They are thin PBT, not thick like Imsto Cherry caps, but they are designed to work with Topre switches, and you don't notice the thickness when you are typing. The legends are nice and crisp. Of course, the black on dark gray legends on the black RF models are virtually invisible. If you want visible legends, you need to replace the caps on the black model with a replacement set, which is available on eBay for $150, or you can buy a white model of RF.

I have the black RF 87u 55g, and I bought a blue Topre keycap set to replace the alpha, number, and arrow keys. All the others are black, including the spacebar. You can also get the same keycap set in white, orange, red, and green. I think that the black and blue combination looks great, and the feel of the PBT is superb.

I also have a Cherry mx keyboard with thick Imsto dye-sub PBT keycaps. They are quite nice, but I think that the Topre caps look better --- the legends are sharper on the Topre caps. The RF is also much better for typing than any Cherry mx keyboard I have ever tried.

Thanks for the intel. I've seen the sets on ebay; ludicrously expensive! The colors are great, but it's a shame that they don't have black to replace the primaries. Are these exactly of the same type/quality as the original keys? How longn do they hold up compared to your imstos?

Anyway, I've just bit the bullet and ordered a 87u 55g from keyboardco. If it is as good as advertised, I'm gonna have to sell my QFR brown with imsto's to fund me an order of one of these colored sets.

The new Topre keycap sets on eBay appear to be of the same high quality as the stock caps on the RF and HHKB boards. However, the new sets do not have the extra front-printed legends for the embedded numeric keypad. I prefer the new ones, because the front-printed legends make the keyboard appear somewhat cluttered.

You can also get a partial black set of Topre keycaps; I think that these have been added to the "widebasket" store on eBay. If not, you can select what you want from the Leopold store in Korea and ask widebasket to get them for you.

http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item ... 1215396631

I don't know why the black set is available only as a partial, consisting of 29 keys.

Thanks Hypersphere, that's good to know I agree. If you really need the hidden numpad, then you would have to memorize the keys anyway. I searched for the black caps, but it seems they have them only with hangul lettering (at least atm):
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... Fa0vwYydCA

PS: They have a really nice looking special anniversary edition (340$ w/o shipping ):
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... S-VvwxyrQA

Edit: And I just discovered the review of the special edition:
http://deskthority.net/review-f45/realf ... t6128.html