Scottish Independence

andrewjoy · 27 Aug 2014, 22:40

I agree The Bank of the United Kingdom would be better. As far as the euro i could not care what the currency is called as long as i get a good deal

. And don't call the scotish english that would not go down too well

some said i sounded like i was from London once , if i was not so polite i have quite strongly pointed out that liverpool is nowhere near london

Julle · 27 Aug 2014, 22:52

Muirium wrote: ↑Alas, Salmond ain't no Obama. We totally need someone who isn't white running this thing! It's all bloody Scots…

Well, you do have the Demoman from Team Fortress 2. I can't imagine him doing much worse than Salmond.

Tricky question. What is the benefit of Italy?

There is no simple way of answering to that without insulting Italians and all their mothers.

Muirium · 27 Aug 2014, 23:36

webwit wrote: ↑It would possibly please them that I think it would be charming if football games start with God Save the Queen.

True story. Once in high school there was an assembly with some bunch of bigwigs in attendance (must have been graduation day for one of the upper years) which included the local MP: Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. A name like that = Tory. (He, along with every last one of his handful of Scottish peers, was duly thumped at the next election a few years later.) I had nothing against the guy, he was a fine Etonian pillock who knew to smile absent mindedly when the various speakers indirectly took the piss out of him and his government. At the end, we had to sing God Save the Queen. Only this was literally the first time most of us had ever done that. I, my friends and many others, didn't know the bloody words besides the title. Between several hundred petulant teens, it was quite the sarcastic performance!

And then we sang, in Latin, the school song Schola Regia flawlessly. Oldest school in Scotland, you know, and full of plebs like us!

andrewjoy · 27 Aug 2014, 23:49

You should change the name of the thread to Scottish independence and tory bashing!

Daniel Beardsmore · 27 Aug 2014, 23:50

Muirium wrote: ↑At the end, we had to sing God Save the Queen. Only this was literally the first time most of us had ever done that. I, my friends and many others, didn't know the bloody words besides the title.

Nor do I, honestly.

PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:O_Can ... l_1927.ogg

If you had to pick just one of the two …

webwit · 28 Aug 2014, 00:25

Will this poll be leading?

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 00:58

So long as I agree with it, uh, sure!

andrewjoy wrote: ↑You should change the name of the thread to Scottish independence and tory bashing!

Kinda goes without saying, really! Liverpool's not exactly their native habitat, either.

I should point out, for sweet hypocrisy's sake, that I did in fact vote for Lord James when he ran for the Scottish Parliament some years later! He had the gumption to pound the streets in my red district of an otherwise thoroughly affluent slice of Edinburgh — full of golf courses, lawyers and bankers — and I fancied a protest vote against the Lib-Lab coalition of the time. He didn't win. But thanks to the sly magic of proportional representation, he was elected anyway, and went on to keep his mouth shut and vote along with the Nationalists in the early days of Salmond's rise to power back before they had a majority. The alliance that dare not speak its tartan tory name!

PJE · 28 Aug 2014, 02:05

As a English man who has spent the last 16 years living in the USA (I married my American wife in Scotland - and love the country and people), my take would be to accept whatever the people vote for and make the best of it either way.

Being an engineer I tend to go with the logical, less risky choices. An independent Scotland could be a great success, but could just as easily result in unexpected changes for the worse.

Just don't try to out Ireland the Irish in a rush to the bottom on taxes to attract companies. There's discussion at the moment in the USA about companies moving their tax bases abroad, and I can see a big backlash in the near future.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 02:40

Scotland and low taxes seldom share the same sentence. You're likely right that there's no point trying to be a tax haven for multinationals when other nations have all the zero percents any accountant could need already stitched up. But even so, I doubt Ireland etc. are in any trouble. If there's one thing the American democratic process is good at, it's stopping the American people from getting their way when the big money's against it.

vivalarevolución · 28 Aug 2014, 04:36

Muirium wrote: ↑You bet we're staying a kingdom. Part of the lure of independence is the ability to pick some ditzy celebrity to be the new Queen. Independence was much less popular in Scotland back in the 1950s and 60s when Elizabeth was still hot…

Pics?

Findecanor · 28 Aug 2014, 07:28

Would you still keep the queen as some kind of formal, yet, powerless regent or become a republic?

Hak Foo · 28 Aug 2014, 08:10

Somewhere, probably Tulsa, there's an electrician or something, who happens to be the closest living relative of the last pre-union monarch. He's going to get a really confusing phone call and a bizarre new job on September 20.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 16:07

The current plan is to change as little as possible (to upset as few voters as possible) but all that would be up for grabs if it's a yes. I'm pro-monarchy myself, but not at all attached to the current lot. I'd like to see us have the first democratically elected monarch in the world. 10 year term. Keep your mouth shut on politics. Enjoy the palaces. You'll find paparazzi at every window…

Halvar · 28 Aug 2014, 17:12

They meant to do that in Germany by installing the "Bundespräsident" (federal president) who is elected for 5 years (by the federal and state parliaments), is formally the head of state, lives in a palace, has only representative functions like doing a new year's speech or other speeches on a very general level, being godfather for families with many children, giving out medals and things like that.

It's just not the same as a "real" monarchy. No princes and princesses, no family at all, no tradition, the entertainment value is zero. They should maybe at least let the people elect him/her, so some more interesting and entertaining characters would get the job. They don't dare to do that though because the Bundespräsident can suspend the parliament, and history does show that the German people can't be trusted with that ...

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 17:21

Our tourism industry is strong (as people have strong associations with Scotland and medieval battles) and I reckon there's an economic case to keep an authentic monarch, besides my personal leaning. I'd prefer Elizabeth (then Charles, everyone forgets Charles…) remain head of state than we had a dull diplomatic figurehead like you and Ireland. If we ever go to a republic, I'd prefer a single figure as directly elected head of state and head of government, like France and the US. Having two politicians share the job seems pointless.

andrewjoy · 28 Aug 2014, 17:33

A republic is a good idea for the whole of the UK, but i think a Technocracy/Scientocracy would work better you know government policy based on f*****g evidence rather than idle speculation and what the elected party "feels" is best based on simply nothing at all, or some book about an imaginary bronze age friend.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 17:39

I think you mean Scientology…

andrewjoy · 28 Aug 2014, 17:44

no ..........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientocracy

Halvar · 28 Aug 2014, 17:55

@Mu: but the way the US and France do it doesn't work at all -- they both have these long periods where the majority in parliament is a different party than the president's and nothing gets done at all for several years...

Better find that electrician from Tulsa, let him get out his kilt and be king. With a bit of luck, he's better than Prince Philipp.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 18:14

This guy would be the leading contender, elected or nominated. (Helps he's already best buds with Salmond.)

Spoiler:

Better than Prince Philip: check.

@Halvar: the trouble with American politics is the gerrymandered House and disproportionate Senate. The president is the best thing they've got. People usually even voted for the guy!

My suggestion would be to have a simultaneous election for president and parliament (one house, using STV like the Irish do) and if the president cannot form a majority coalition afterwards, run the election again. We had a hung parliament in 2010 in London which led to a widely hated coalition of Liberals and Tories that Scotland in particular is pissed off about. Most Liberal voters here still hate the Tories. The Liberals have been slaughtered at every other election since, and will have a hard time next year when their term is finally up. Better to ask the people again than to let foul bedfellows run the country against our wishes.

Madhias · 28 Aug 2014, 18:23

I heard Scottish women are voting NO?

7bit · 28 Aug 2014, 18:26

Muirium wrote: ↑... I'm pro-monarchy myself, but not at all attached to the current lot. I'd like to see us have the first democratically elected monarch in the world. 10 year term. Keep your mouth shut on politics. Enjoy the palaces. You'll find paparazzi at every window…

Where can I vote Muirium for king of Scotland?

I'm quite sure the EU and many EU member states would help Scotland when they are independent, if not for humanitarian reasons, then to annoy the BritishEnglish government.

madhias wrote: ↑I heard Scottish women are voting NO?

Not if James Bond becomes king of Scotland!

vivalarevolución · 28 Aug 2014, 18:38

andrewjoy wrote: ↑A republic is a good idea for the whole of the UK, but i think a Technocracy/Scientocracy would work better you know government policy based on f*****g evidence rather than idle speculation and what the elected party "feels" is best based on simply nothing at all, or some book about an imaginary bronze age friend.

The majority does not understand science, so there would be some difficulty in getting everyone to get behind such an idea.

Muirium wrote: ↑Our tourism industry is strong (as people have strong associations with Scotland and medieval battles) and I reckon there's an economic case to keep an authentic monarch, besides my personal leaning. I'd prefer Elizabeth (then Charles, everyone forgets Charles…) remain head of state than we had a dull diplomatic figurehead like you and Ireland. If we ever go to a republic, I'd prefer a single figure as directly elected head of state and head of government, like France and the US. Having two politicians share the job seems pointless.

Charles is so unappealing. They should just skip straight to William. He flies helicopters and stuff. And I can't respect a guy with that much status married to someone like Camilla. Come on, bro.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 18:48

I suspect the support in England (let alone Scotland) for canning the royals and turning a republic will spike big time when it's Charlie's turn. So does his mum, the way she's determined to hold on to the end, no matter what the other European monarchies are up to.

The problem with letting we plebs interfere with our beloved and honourable royals' succession plan is that we'll turn them into politicians, keenly following their numbers, forming sides against one another. Who's right is it to tell Charlie he's past it? I'd rather treat them as elected officers instead of tinker with a family's troubles.

@Madhias: ah, I know that look all too well! We're in with a good shot then, amirite?

Halvar · 28 Aug 2014, 18:58

Yeah, the days where the heir would just let someone chop his dad's head off if he's "past it" are somehow over, too. We live in lukewarm times, not apt for monarchies any more.

7bit · 28 Aug 2014, 20:14

Muirium wrote: ↑I suspect the support in England (let alone Scotland) for canning the royals and turning a republic will spike big time when it's Charlie's turn. So does his mum, the way she's determined to hold on to the end, no matter what the other European monarchies are up to.

All she wants is the worlds record of longest regency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lo ... g_monarchs
If this would be the DT post-count table, she'd be still on page 2 (50th).

Daniel Beardsmore · 28 Aug 2014, 20:46

7bit wrote: ↑All she wants is the worlds record of longest regency …

Indeed — I'm really hoping she makes it (not world's longest, but certainly to beat Victoria). You can't knock her immense dedication to her job.

Once she's gone — difficult. I'm not attached to the Royal Family in any way, but at the same time, would we want to undermine our own tourist industry? I guess you'd have to weigh up the cost of the Royal Family vs its revenue in tourism.

Of course, since we're not going to be able to call ourselves Britain any more if Scotland go (since part of Great Britain will leave the UK), we may well ditch the K too, and just be U. (Granted, America has no issue with national metnonymy.)

webwit · 28 Aug 2014, 20:52

Fuck monarchies. It's medieval crap. It's 2014.

Muirium · 28 Aug 2014, 20:55

But Scotland is one big medieval fair! Especially as far as tourists are concerned. We take that sword and chivalry nonsense quite seriously here, along with certain spirits, puddings, and manly skirts…

My prediction is that if Scotland does leave the UK, the remaining country will be called the same name as it is today, with the same anthem and the same flag. Why not? They never took out the diagonal red bits when Ireland left, last century. Britain still needs a separate flag from England's as long as Wales and Northern Ireland remain.

Things down south will probably feel eerily like they are today. The only effective difference being fifty-odd less Labour MPs and a lot more jobs showing up south of the border for the military, which you'll want to keep the same size to impress Washington. (Not that it does, of course…)

webwit · 28 Aug 2014, 21:11

With that line of reasoning, Germany should have kept the nazi, because of tourism. Not with real power, but it would seriously increase the number of visitors to destruction camps if they would parade around.

deskthority

Scottish Independence

Should Scotland be an independent country?