Analog stick for nav keys

rklm · 13 Aug 2014, 23:52

So I have been playing around with 40% layouts recently (not that I don't love the Minimal Animal or anything), and here is what I have come up with:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 42b4c0d82e

(I might be willing to make 3 and part with two since alps switches come in packs of 200 and oshpark sells their PCBs in batches of 3)

I have been thinking about replacing the "Nav Mod" key and the corresponding (bottom most) fn layer with one of these (or something similar):

http://www.eeshops.net/analog-stick-rep ... fac575509b
http://www.dx.com/p/replacement-3d-anal ... -uTY_ldX8g

I don't actually intend to use it like a trackpoint... I want to use it to send the up/down/left/right scan codes... so the analog function isn't very useful to me.

So here are the problems I have to solve:

Does the analog stick close a circuit (like a key switch) when it is actuated?
Will it fit between the other keyswitches on the pcb?
Will I have enough pins left over on the teensy? (although, assuming it is two pins per direction, I can't imagine this being two big of an issue)

What do you guys think? Too much effort for too little gain? I don't really mind macro layers (I use a ton on my other customs XD)

ne0phyte · 14 Aug 2014, 00:27

The ones you linked are actually _analog_ so you don't get a 1/0 for each direction but an analog signal which represents the absolute position for X/Y of the stick. You'd need to extend the firmware a bit to use those the way you want to.
I could imagine that there are digital joystick modules that act like a button for each direction though.

Personally I would never want an analog stick for cursor movement. Even the thought is pretty weird. Imagine navigating through text with a joystick

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 00:34

Yeah... I have trouble enough with trackpoints >.>

In a short google search, I couldn't find digital joysticks... but I did find this: http://www.instructables.com/id/Simple- ... onversion/

The problem I foresee now is the dimensions of these modules:

xbox type module: 2.6 cm x 2.1 cm x 2.4 cm
playstation type module: 2.1 cm x 1.8 cm x 2.1 cm
wii type module: 2.2 cm x 2.2 cm x 1.8 cm

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 01:56

I drew up a plate design including the dimensions of the ps2/ps3 analog stick:

Looks like everything will fit more or less. (Also, look ma! No stabs!)

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 08:04

I was bored so I finished the case. I will render the pcb tomorrow... if I can find the pinout for those analog sticks.

http://puu.sh/aRNWo/d3b447747b.ai <- This is the illustrator file

I plan on using 5mm acrylic for all of the layers (I just recently found out you could use 5mm acrylic for the plate with a PCB, and I can't wait to try it)

jacobolus · 14 Aug 2014, 08:51

I strongly recommend switching your numbers-layer layout to be more numpad-like. 0, 1, and 2 are going to be the most common digits in typing numbers, and currently you’re using 2 pinkies to handle all three.

Additionally, I suspect that characters like semicolon, slash, questionmark, etc. are going to be really annoying to type. If you used a key that was in easier reach for 'num mod' I think you’d end up happier.

What does 'alpha mod' do?

As for thumbsticks, I recommend buying a whole knockoff PS3 controller from china (e.g. on ebay) to pull the sticks from.

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 17:12

Yeah, I will probably move things around, but I like the switch layout (for now).

I was thinking that the num mod key would enable that layer permanently (ie it would stay in num mode even after the key is released), and the alpha mod key would return it to normal. If any of you guys have tried that before and it sucks, let me know, I am sure I can find something else to stick in there.

Also, ebay knockoffs are sooo much cheaper. For the same price as a single joystick, you can get a whole controller with 2... and I bet the knockoffs use the same joysticks.

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 20:22

Layout revision 2 (Simplification, joystick, doesn't include Num Mod revision):
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 943625da26

Muirium · 14 Aug 2014, 20:33

That function layer is more logical than the default layer for punctuation characters. So long as you can learn it.

The numpad style for a layer of numbers (as done on the SSK) is a square centred on I. On a 40%, without a number row, you could centre it on J instead, for easy right hand use. So UIO is 789, JKL is 456, and M,. is 123. You'd need to be a little cunning with zero and period, though. I usually keep full stop as the same character (decimal point) in numbers, but not so easy on a 40%.

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 20:39

Well, I figure there isn't anything stopping me from trying both!

The advantages of the number row style are that there is no need to move your hands off of the home row to use it... and also I have never really used a num pad... but maybe I should rectify that...

The advantages of the num pad style is that it is more right hand focused and includes more convenient fingers, and it would free up much more space on the left side for more convenient punctuation.

Muirium · 14 Aug 2014, 20:47

Exactly. I find typing in numbers on a TKL slower and more mistake prone than entering a virtual numpad layer. (A real numpad is quite nice, but not worth the extra bulk to me.) Best thing about layers is you're free to customise them however and whenever you like. All you've got to get right at the outset is the physical layout. Yours looks pretty good.

rklm · 14 Aug 2014, 21:14

Alright Muirium, drooling yet?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 1433ad7a11

Muirium · 14 Aug 2014, 21:45

Always drooling.

And, uh, yeah the last one's good!

acolombo · 15 Aug 2014, 00:02

Usually analog thumbsticks also act as a button when pressed down (I think only Xbox and Ps ones, not PSP ones that are anyway interesting for the different form factor). You should consider using that for something, if you could make it work that coul be a nice addon. Maybe to actuate a layer, but I don't know if it will be so convinient for that.

rklm · 15 Aug 2014, 00:54

Yeah actually, I thinking the same thing!

All of the 3d joysticks have buttons (wii u, Xbox, and Playstation, Playstation being the smallest dimensionally)

I am thinking the button will switch between UDLR and page up, page down, home, and end.

webwit · 15 Aug 2014, 01:24

Maybe you can use the analog function to dictate the speed of the cursor.

rklm · 15 Aug 2014, 07:29

Originally the plan was to convert the joystick to digital (for the purpose of using it for up down left right motion only)...

But upon recommendation from a friend, I changed up the design a bit... (maybe this design is a bit too ambitious)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 5f21934b4c <- Full layout

The stick on the left side will be converted to digital (effectively turning it into 5 switches including clicking it) and the stick on the right will remain analog and be used for cursor movement (either with a second controller or some severely overhauled firmware).

I scrapped the RCtrl and RAlt in favor of left and right click... but neither I nor anyone else I have asked today uses those keys... so I am not sweating it...

I think this project just took a dive off the deep end... for the better?

Thoughts?

rklm · 29 Aug 2014, 04:51

It's happening!

http://imgur.com/a/VuIj2

noesc · 29 Aug 2014, 06:30

Really nice project, and a beatiful case!

The idea looks fantastic and I can't wait to steal some of your ideas for later projects! =)

Side note, what's the feel of an acrylics case? Flexing much? Odd to tuch?

Good look and I'll be keeping an eye on this one!

rklm · 29 Aug 2014, 06:59

The minimal animal is quite comfortable, however I used much thinner acrylic on that project.

I guess only time will tell for this one, however there is very little flex because of the thick layers.

acolombo · 29 Aug 2014, 21:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj6vVGnW66k Look at 3:30, that thing, if it doesn't have a super-big hardware behind it, it would be very cool for you I think. It could may be a problem to make it work though. Also to find something similar (I don't think you can find that one for a small price as it's not sold separately) could be tricky.

The case is really nice, I would have gone with clear only for the middle layers though... I'd like to ask you how much are you gonna spend at the end for a 40% like this (analogs excluded)? I'm pretty interested in making a nice 40% myself, and if I can find that piece of hardware of the video above it will be hard to resist to this temptation.

-edit: at the moment I found those, not the same but still interesting:
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/Sw ... AA010.html
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Small-Mini-Multi ... 3385d2edc8
http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?Sea ... 0829111728

rklm · 30 Aug 2014, 07:56

Those are some pretty neat devices!

I think for this project I am going to use these: http://www.dx.com/p/repairing-wireless- ... AFmx_ldVAE

I have actually just about finished a PCB design that incorporates two analog sticks and cherry mx RGB switches with 1616 SMT LEDs underneath the switches and underneath the PCB (hence the completely transparent case).

The design is almost entirely SMT as well, so I might consider producing a few of them.

As far as pricing goes, it all depends on who I get what parts for, and how much the pcb tooling costs.

kyle · 30 Aug 2014, 10:19

I really like this layout. Looking forward to seeing the progress.

Max · 31 Aug 2014, 00:10

Hi rklm your layout looks awesome are you going to use a locking switch for the Fn layer?

I think going with the Xbox 360 thumb stick is the right call theres the most information about that controller than the others. If you need some technical information I'd seriously recommend going to xpadder.com and checking out the forums, or trying to get contact with the guy that made xpadder. Also this might kind of ruin your idea but I remember that the Xbox 360 controller has a center area where it can move around a bit and sends information about the co-ordinates it's at, so it might be resting but at (0,1) for example and if you have it set up that any positive Y movement is page up for example.

I suppose this is a bit irrelevant now but I think it was either the game cube thumb stick or the PS1 thumb stick the actual stem on it is metal should be good for durability.

Hope you don't run into any snags, this looks really good!

rklm · 31 Aug 2014, 04:22

Separately from this post, I spent a fair amount of time working through many of the engineering kinks... and I will make a more detailed post when I have more of the prototype finished...

But as it turns out, almost all of these analog sticks are basically just sets of two variable resistors and a switch... and with the size of this matrix and the LEDs I want to use, I have just enough pins on the teensy to do everything AND interpret the analog motion of both joysticks and do whatever I want with either of them (such as using the logical high and low as switch actuation OR using the specific state for mouse control).

At this point, I have just about worked out all the hardware issues, the only thing I am working on is the software and acquiring MX RGB clear case switches.