Scottish Independence

Muirium · 06 Sep 2014, 18:44

That's the thing: all of Europe is weaker because of this artificial limit we all place on Germany (and you guys do too) for a bunch of nonsense committed by dead guys. Same with Japan. If we were at all honest and treated everyone's history the same way, white Americans would be suffering immense taxes to compensate their former forced slaves and the native Americans they stole a continent and future from! A load of utter bollocks, gentlemen, there is nothing better said about it!

seebart · 06 Sep 2014, 18:52

Well that's a difficult one. History cannot be ignored, on the other hand most of those people are dead. Past and gone. But history is never going to be treated equal, or shall we say objective. And that's probably only possible after many centuries.

Hypersphere · 06 Sep 2014, 18:56

Muirium wrote: ↑That's the thing: all of Europe is weaker because of this artificial limit we all place on Germany (and you guys do too) for a bunch of nonsense committed by dead guys. Same with Japan. If we were at all honest and treated everyone's history the same way, white Americans would be suffering immense taxes to compensate their former forced slaves and the native Americans they stole a continent and future from! A load of utter bollocks, gentlemen, there is nothing better said about it!

Perhaps the unease some have is that the deeds were far worse than nonsense and the perpetrators weren't dead at the time.

As for stealing continents, yes, I agree; I suppose we could chase this idea all the way back to someone like Lucy and the Olduvai Gorge in Africa.

Muirium · 06 Sep 2014, 18:56

The aftertaste seemed to wear off France after Napoleon had a couple of goes at just the same thing as Kaiser Willy and the man with the moustache went for. In fact, besides this being 100 years since the start of WWI, most forget all about that one as well. It's as if history started in 1939. Or 1941 if you're American.

I blame this firmly on the baby boomers. Quit wallowing in your parents war! Besides, Vietnam war movies are so much better than WWII ones. So much less heroic crap to get in the way of the vile brutality. Way better soundtrack, besides.

Hypersphere · 06 Sep 2014, 19:10

This is dredging up too much pain for me. I will try to limit my contributions to cheerier topics, such as keyboards!

seebart · 06 Sep 2014, 19:18

"Perhaps the unease some have is that the deeds were far worse than nonsense and the perpetrators weren't dead at the time."

I could not agree more! And there are still WW2 vets alive in many countries. I've said it before, Germany's strong ties to the US are because of their positive role after 1945 here in Germany. They helped build this place back up without having to do so. Were closer to the US than many of our neighbors on the map. And it's going to take a lot more than Snowden to change that.

Hypersphere · 06 Sep 2014, 19:24

seebart wrote: ↑"Perhaps the unease some have is that the deeds were far worse than nonsense and the perpetrators weren't dead at the time."

I could not agree more! And there are still WW2 vets alive in many countries. I've said it before, Germany's strong ties to the US are because of their positive role after 1945 here in Germany. They helped build this place back up without having to do so. Were closer to the US than many of our neighbors on the map. And it's going to take a lot more than Snowden to change that.

Thanks, seebart! I really appreciate your comments.

Now I really ought to get back to keyboards....

seebart · 06 Sep 2014, 19:35

Who else are we going to team up with? China, Russia? Talk about democracies. Putin is still a KGB man, look at his actions in the Ukraine right now. China just scares me. How powerful will they be in 20 years?

Eszett · 06 Sep 2014, 21:54

Interesting article which fits to this thread, that’s why I’m posting it here. Happy reading: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/ ... index.html

Madhias · 06 Sep 2014, 22:31

Eszett wrote: ↑Interesting article which fits to this thread, that’s why I’m posting it here. Happy reading: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/ ... index.html

Scrolling on a new level!

webwit · 06 Sep 2014, 22:35

It was a fine argument about how you make real cool scrolling stuff!

seebart · 07 Sep 2014, 11:42

I like that BBC News Beta format and layout! It´s a really good way to combine the images with the content.

Well MU, it´s a couple of days till the 18th, but tonight we have some soccer action. Your tipp please!

That recent game against Argentina didn´t go so well for Germany!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/live/football/29077049

Muirium · 14 Sep 2014, 20:32

Final weekend. Things are getting close:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotla ... ll-tracker

Couldn't really say this before but either side can credibly win this now. We have a proper contest, at last!

Edinburgh's covered with Yes and No signs in people's windows. Yes supporting friends are excited with what comes next for the oldest new country in the world… if they win. No supporting friends are suddenly out on the street bothering to campaign like they mean it this time. Amusement strikes whenever they collide!

We'll see. Whichever way it goes I hope it's not too close at the end. Don't want it stolen off us like 1979, or haunting us like Quebec's photo finish in 1995. Say aye or naw, you decide, but spare us mibee!

Seebart: never joke about football with a Scot. We are so profoundly, mind bogglingly, metaphysically bad at it the whole experience escapes humour. We're the guys the mighty Faeroe Islands pray to meet, so they can improve their goal difference! Yet it's still our national sport. Ach!

davkol · 16 Sep 2014, 00:35

webwit · 16 Sep 2014, 00:40

It's strange to see how much the English try to influence the Scottish vote. They try everything to swing the vote, and I'm sure we haven't seen the last of it. Shouldn't this be the a Scottish affair? Like, once and for all, they have to make up their minds, all by themselves? I'm sure they're perfectly able to corrupt the vote from the real issues all by themselves as well.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 12:57

In their minds, they still have an empire. No matter how small it gets.

Three Stooges Englishmen Got Opinions.

7bit · 16 Sep 2014, 13:29

"Your No is our Yes! Workers Unite!"

"Let's stick together! Scotland belongs to the UK, not the EU!"

"If you become independent, mind the consequences!*"

----------------
*) we will stop golfing and hunting in Scotland and drink grappa instead of whisky!

andrewjoy · 16 Sep 2014, 13:37

Quiet you , you are a subject of the empire get back in line, we wont suffer separatists.

.

I admit the 3 above are totally useless, but Mr Brown made some good points and as much as he was not a good Prime Minister he was a excellent chancellor and knows what he is talking about so he is defiantly worth listening to.

The economy is the thing to worry about and we just don't know whats going to happen with that ether way i have seen no good arguments form ether side, same with the currency and membership of Europe.

I don't have a vote as i live the north west England but if i did i would have to vote no, as much as it sounds good to be able to govern yourself and to get rid of this munch of idiots i feel there are just too many unanswered questions to make a choice on and if i don't know then i would have to go with the safe option. If i was Scottish i would want more information and the process to be handled better before i did anything.

In a perfect world yes it would work well for Scotland to govern itself, just as i feel it would for the north of England to have more power (like Scotland has now) as the difference between the north and south of this country ( England ) is quite large and we are not represented well.

I am just worried that the BNP will get even more power and drive us out of Europe, the European Parliament is the only thing stopping our government doing super dodgy things with personal privacy and the freedom of the net, if Scotland does go independent please try to make it a country that does this stuff right not like the UK does now

.

I hope that whatever way it goes the job is done right and the whole of the UK or the British Isles whatever it ends up being comes out of it the better, but with that total f***kwit Cameron and Samond at the helm/helms its going to be a bumpy road.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 14:41

Let's put it this way: no one leans over England's shoulder and says "Oh, I don't know, your economy doesn't really look up to much, you should probably play it safe and join the United States or maybe see if Beijing would let you in as a protectorate of Hong Kong's. Those are real nations with real currencies and real economies!"

It's like there's never been such a thing as a nation of 5 million people before. Glancing at the other members of the EU, I count 8 that are smaller than us, and several (including Finland and Denmark with higher standards of living and education than the UK) almost exactly equal to us Scots.

Reckon you'd get far asking people in Dublin if they'd like to wind up their country and come back into Britain? London's making such a kerfuffle over this they forget it's not even the first time that part of the UK has left and found its own way in Europe and the world.

seebart · 16 Sep 2014, 14:45

Quiet you , you are a subject of the empire get back in line, we wont suffer separatists. .

oh boy here we go...

Oh, I don't know, your economy doesn't really look up to much

a lot of people think and say that, just not directly to the British Gov. Apart from that it´s kind of pointless.

the European Parliament is the only thing stopping our government doing super dodgy things with personal privacy and the freedom of the net

ahm..I think that super dodgy stuff is allready going on regardless of the European Parliament.

if Scotland does go independent please try to make it a country that does this stuff right not like the UK does now

that´s the a great independence "one-liner", also actually quite desirable, posssibly not that realistic. But I know what you mean Andrew, and I´m not being sarcastic or anything.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 14:53

Here's one for Webwit: Scotland's most read newspaper, believe it or not…

Labour says jump.

I still haven't seen any sign of other parties actively campaigning No, even in Liberal/Tory suburban Edinburgh, where I live. There's a good reason why Labour's all over this campaign: Scotland is their crown jewel. They were even founded here. And if we separate, their Scottish members will never get to dream of packing their carpetbags and heading down to London to poke their noses in English business again. Aw…

mr_a500 · 16 Sep 2014, 14:55

They're giving out free milk too? That should sway some people.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 14:58

I think that's a jibe at Cameron / the Tories. When I was in primary (elementary) school, we used to get free milk until one day it was gone, and everyone started paying for Coke instead. Even as a kid I got wind that Mrs. Thatcher had plenty of opinions…

mr_a500 · 16 Sep 2014, 15:10

So you got free milk in elementary school and your university education was free? I wish I was Scottish. Here in Canada we got free water in elementary school (from water fountains) now replaced with paying for bottled water (local tap water bottled by Coke & Pepsi - Dasani & Aquafina) and university fees have gone from outrageous to obscene. I'm still paying and I finished university a few decades ago.

davkol · 16 Sep 2014, 15:12

Ha, the joys of living in socialist continental Europe.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 15:14

That's the dream!

Even remembering free milk makes me an old fogey nowadays. But the free education part was brought back when we turfed Labour out of power in Edinburgh. Yay, uh, socialism? It gets complex when Tony Blair's involved…

seebart · 16 Sep 2014, 15:19

That's the dream!

Exactly, but don´t dream too much when voting!

Yay, uh, socialism? It gets complex when Tony Blair's involved…

that´s a different brand of socialism!

webwit · 16 Sep 2014, 16:17

Muirium wrote: ↑Let's put it this way: no one leans over England's shoulder and says "Oh, I don't know, your economy doesn't really look up to much, you should probably play it safe and join the United States or maybe see if Beijing would let you in as a protectorate of Hong Kong's. Those are real nations with real currencies and real economies!"

Don't you realise how bad small countries are doing on their own? Like Norway, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein and Switzerland?

Btw, this whole economy argument reminds me of a old sketch by a dutch comedy duo in the eighties, when Japan was the hip rising superpower. They pretended to be a new political party, with only one aim: making all the Dutch people rich. The slogan was Geen gezeik, iedereen rijk! (No more bullshit, everybody rich!), and the idea was to sell the Netherlands to Japan and share the profits, making everyone a millionaire.

Muirium · 16 Sep 2014, 16:30

I heard that back in the Japanese property boom, Tokyo used to show off that the imperial palace (which is basically a big park in the middle of the city) was worth more than the entire state of California. That was probably a good time to sell Japanese real estate!

Like Warren Buffet said: the smart way to go is opposite the rest of the market. All this London talk of Scotland being a desert without them sounds like an appealing investment… if only all my money wasn't in key cap stock!

mr_a500 · 16 Sep 2014, 17:00

I'll trade you Ellesmere Island for Scotland. It's over twice the land area and plenty of offshore oil & gas. I'll have my government contact your government and we'll work out a deal.

(unfortunately, it's incredibly fucking cold there and you can forget sheep grazing unless they eat rocks & ice)

deskthority

Scottish Independence

Should Scotland be an independent country?