Logitech's new Romer-G-Switch

c137 · 18 Sep 2014, 15:53

Ah, wouldn't a phantom plate solve the problem basically?

From dissecting Matias switches for mecha-blog.de I was/am under the impression, that you only would need to take out the leaf spring from a Quiet switch.

PBT is a must, sure. Here MX compatability would come in handy, althoug Matias is bringing the Ergo Pro with PBT in December.

cookie · 18 Sep 2014, 16:22

Muirium wrote: ↑Ask Matias about linear switches. In the marketing materials for his "soft click" (tactile) switch, I remember he gives the nod to Cherry for making the best linear switch, but neither clicky nor tactile. I agree, but only because Matias doesn't even bother!

A damped linear switch (in a 60% especially) would be very interesting. And with MX cap compatibility, it would be nigh on irresistible!

MX compatibility is not a must in my opinion as long as it has thick and nice PBT caps.

Muirium · 18 Sep 2014, 16:35

I'll just remind you of the current state of Matias' caps. They ain't no Granite! MX mount means you're in complete control. Anything else, and it's slim, slim pickins.

c137 wrote: ↑From dissecting Matias switches for mecha-blog.de I was/am under the impression, that you only would need to take out the leaf spring from a Quiet switch.

You could well be right. Debating this somewhere here before, I remember someone did the work and figured out the combinations. Damped click needs a donor switch of both types. I wish he sold those and spared me the bother! Damped linear seems doable though, if I didn't wreck the switches myself while trying!

c137 · 18 Sep 2014, 16:45

Yes, this Alps mount slims down your choice by a huge lot.

And yeah, a dampened Click would need the leaf spring of a clicky switch and the slider of a quiet one.
I just published the (albeit unfinished, as it is missing the force-travel diagrams) article with some fotos: http://mecha-blog.de/matias-schalter/

Muirium · 18 Sep 2014, 16:47

I have just one Matias switch of each type, and I've not tried taking them apart. Easier or harder than MX switches, would you say? Those are doable, but I'm always stressed when trying, as I'm clumsy.

c137 · 18 Sep 2014, 17:05

They are easy enough to open with tweezers, a bit more complicated than Cherry because you have clamps on all four sides.
Putting them together again whilst keeping them in working order is a little bit harder. The contact leaf can be a little worrying as can the central spring positioning.

I actually bought two of every type just to be sure to have a working example left after making those fotos, but everything went well.

cookie · 18 Sep 2014, 17:34

They are indeed easy to open up, even when plate mounted!

Muirium · 18 Sep 2014, 22:09

Intey-resting. I need to get on with my Matias project someday. I've got some old Alps nice caps, but nothing fantastic, layout wise. But damped switches do feel nice…

Daniel Beardsmore · 18 Sep 2014, 23:57

c137 wrote: ↑From dissecting Matias switches for mecha-blog.de I was/am under the impression, that you only would need to take out the leaf spring from a Quiet switch.

Yes and no. A significant portion of the actuation force comes from the leaf spring, so you'd get a lighter switch with the leaf removed. The spring in blue Alps is pretty light, which is partially why they felt so nice.

However, with the popularity of MX red, you might find that a Matias switch with the leaf removed would be a favourable weight. Personally I'd go for something a tad bit heavier given the choice.

Muirium wrote: ↑I have just one Matias switch of each type, and I've not tried taking them apart. Easier or harder than MX switches, would you say?

Much, much harder. The base doesn't support the contacts at all (they flop about) and getting them positioned correctly in the top is a royal pain too. On a WTF scale of switch reassembly, simplified Alps and Matias are around 7. SMK second generation is 10, because I've actually got two of them that I could never, ever get back together properly. Cherry is probably around 1: they're a doddle to reassemble.

Muirium · 19 Sep 2014, 00:00

Bugger. Looking at other people's pictures (many of which were yours…) my guess what they're too hard to contemplate doing dozens of times for a custom. I'm not even doddle level comfortable with MX! Although I did lately get the hang of re-assembling beam springs so repetition can sometimes do it.

Julle · 19 Sep 2014, 01:20

I know I've seen these exact switches on a vintage board before...

webwit · 19 Sep 2014, 01:28

Such an activation point will have big consequences for the overall feel. Might be good for gamers, bad for typists.

bhtooefr · 19 Sep 2014, 01:47

I like high-activation as a typist, actually...

Muirium · 19 Sep 2014, 01:52

Same here. How high is this?

webwit · 19 Sep 2014, 02:07

bhtooefr wrote: ↑I like high-activation as a typist, actually...

Aren't you an Alps fanboy?

I'm a fan of some Alps but I think on average a majority have preferred Cherry type activation point. They don't like a shorter tactile travel. I think (as a typist) high-activation can feel rewarding short-term, think chiclet keyboards in extreme, but are less comfortable long-term. Maybe it's like car suspension. Would you like a Daimler with super smooth suspension for a comfortable ride, or would you like tight Porsche suspension, feel every bump, but drive faster like a boss?

c137 · 19 Sep 2014, 11:14

Logitech says "1.5 mm instead of 2 mm". Now go and look at Alps' data

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑ Yes and no. A significant portion of the actuation force comes from the leaf spring, so you'd get a lighter switch with the leaf removed. The spring in blue Alps is pretty light, which is partially why they felt so nice
[...] you might find that a Matias switch with the leaf removed would be a favourable weight. Personally I'd go for something a tad bit heavier given the choice.

Well, yes. If you just remove the leaf spring, the switch gets noticably lighter. Some people might like this.
Others would also have to replace the central spring.

Judging from the pictures on the wiki, the actually produced linear Alps didn't have a leaf spring either.

cookie · 19 Sep 2014, 12:09

I have once removed the leaf springs from black alps on a Dell AT102dw and slightly lubed the stems. Thre results were actually verry nice, but the wobble was too much for my taste and I dislike a fullsize keyboard.

bhtooefr · 19 Sep 2014, 12:43

webwit wrote: ↑Would you like a Daimler with super smooth suspension for a comfortable ride, or would you like tight Porsche suspension, feel every bump, but drive faster like a boss?

That might actually explain a lot... if Mazda doesn't make the body style of MX-5 I want (which, they probably won't), I'd be looking at a ~10 year old Porsche Cayman most likely.

c137 · 20 Sep 2014, 18:21

Muirium wrote: ↑Ask Matias about linear switches.

They would do them!
Well, if you ordered 200 keyboards equipped with them...

andrewjoy · 20 Sep 2014, 20:48

if they did linear switches that would be amazing

it may even get me to make a custom board with them

Mrinterface · 23 Sep 2014, 08:46

002 wrote: ↑ Maybe we can group buy a single board and tear it down to hand out the switches?

Wait... What?

c137 · 23 Sep 2014, 14:32

If anyone is interested in a RGB backlit Matias keyboard (TKL or compact 100%; ANSI or ISO) I can start an interest check.
Per switch variant we would need 100 people, for the whole thing at least about 200. An aluminum case would be optional (but also 100 required for a reasonable price.)

Features: RGB backlight, dual-layer PCB, phantom steelplate, analog dials for backlight control (one each for brightness and color), FN media keys, detachable USB cable, 10KRO over USB, matte polycarbonate case. Manufacturing, delivery etc. entirely by Matias.
Price: ca. 180$ + 120-150$ for the Aluminum case (plus import tax or similar if and where applicable).

the1onewolf · 09 Oct 2014, 08:53

It's funny, I actually said alot what the above posts mentioned when I demo'd this keyboard.
Glad to see enthusiasts do think alike!

cookie · 04 Nov 2014, 15:22

fyi: http://imgur.com/a/qKQod

c137 · 04 Nov 2014, 16:28

Wow, very interesting. Thanks for the link, cookie!

Daniel Beardsmore · 04 Nov 2014, 23:42

It will be interesting to see how well the dual contacts do in improving switch reliability. It's certainly not something that I expected to see; I wasn't aware that any DPST switches were still sold, so it may be that Omron are selling the only ones on the market. Cherry MX in particular was not designed to support DPST, being presumably the point where Cherry wrote off DPST.

rindorbrot · 05 Nov 2014, 08:41

What's DPST?

002 · 05 Nov 2014, 08:58

It stands for Double Pole, Single Throw. I am not sure what benefits that this design will bring to the keyboard...maybe something to do with the light pipe?

Daniel Beardsmore · 05 Nov 2014, 09:50

rindorbrot wrote: ↑What's DPST?

Proper DPST switches have two sets of switch contacts sharing one plunger, i.e. when you press the switch you connect two circuits at once. You can use this for redundancy, i.e. at least one pair of contacts is likely to connect even if the other has broken or become dirty.

In the case of the Romer-G, it's not actually DPST as it's only got one set of legs and the contacts are connected (actual DPST switches are two independent switches operated concurrently). Cherry switches prior to MX did all support two independent sets of contacts, though; you can see the holes for the second set of legs on this M8 switch:

: Cherry M8 base.jpg (223.52 KiB) Viewed 7063 times

The two pairs of contacts and legs are numbered 1 and 2. There's also a pair of holes for a diode or jumper to be fitted instead.

DPST is covered in Cherry patents and catalogues but not seen in keyboards. I think Micro Switch Hall Effect keyboards are the only ones I've seen with actual redundancy in the switches.

cookie · 05 Nov 2014, 09:59

Sounds to me like intentional reduncancy to make them fail proof. As much as I dislike logitech as a company and what they did in the past, I have to give them credit for actualy producing a new switch type and not faking cherrys or alps!

It will still remain a utterly tasteless keyboard with interesting switches