Hi-Tek were having a laugh

Muirium · 19 Oct 2014, 13:06

klikkyklik wrote: ↑I noticed in your list that you indicate blacks as clicky. I have an RT-101+ board with Hi-Tek blacks that are not clicky. They are tactile and fairly stiff.

Sorry for the hair...

Ah, NMB having a laugh indeed. Why let a little thing like reason get between you and picking any damn colour you like! I've got a very clicky black, two-eyed, NMB RT-102 here:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/nmb-r ... t8469.html

The "eyes" are differently placed, though. More aggressive on the clicky!

Damn hard to take good pictures of that shiny black plastic. I need to do another batch, as I promised, of its insides anyway.

Daniel Beardsmore · 19 Oct 2014, 13:23

What's funny about those tactile black sliders is that I can't find a match for that mould — the eye shape doesn't match other tactile sliders.

There are black clicky sliders with small eyes too — I don't know what the reason was for retooling, only that Hi-Tek were forever making new moulds with different eyes.

I suspected there were still more variants to come. I suspect there are still more.

BTW, klikkyklik, what's the date on your keyboard? Also, what type (tactile or linear) and colour of switch is used for space bar? For non-white tactile it's usually a neon green linear, but you might have something new.

klikkyklik · 20 Oct 2014, 13:58

It's an old Arche board. Unfortunately I don't see a date on it. Considering that I'm fairly new at the keyboard game and haven't yet removed a space bar, I'll have to do a little research to find out how to do it properly with these Hi-Tek's. I'll see if I can get to it after work today (about 11 hours from now).

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klikkyklik · 20 Oct 2014, 15:47

After watching your nice video and hearing the higher-pitched click, I started doubting my memory and just made provisions to go grab the board to type on it again. It definitely does not have the click yours does. There is a clack on the key bottoming out, but that's it; there is no way these switches could be considered clicky.

As far as the space bar, if you can give me some pointers on how to pull it without a key puller or what-not, I'm all ears. The only thing I have key-puller-wise are two of those plastic ring styles. I'll get a "proper" wire-type puller in the future, but for now that's all I have.

If I had to guess on the date, it would be maybe 1994'sh.

002 · 20 Oct 2014, 16:06

Going by your images, yours definitely has the characteristics of a tactile switch with the double-kinked contact leaves and the narrow separator bar. Good find.

If you really want to confirm that it's not a clicky variant, just look for the trailing arm at the back of the switch as pictured here and here (lambda-shaped white plastic thingy...). If it's not there, then I am almost certain you have discovered a new tactile variant

klikkyklik · 20 Oct 2014, 20:56

Here are some more shots of the switch. There is no evidence of the little white trailing arm gizmo. If anyone would like better (cleaner!) pics for reference, I can try to do that.

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Daniel Beardsmore · 20 Oct 2014, 22:04

Oh, sorry, I was in no doubt that yours was tactile — the evidence was clear, as 002 noted.

I'm just curious about the reasoning behind the variant.

The date is on the PCB itself; it takes the form of four seven-segment digits for YYMM.

klikkyklik · 20 Oct 2014, 22:55

No worries!

According to this it'd be 1989, but ... 24 for MM?

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klikkyklik · 20 Oct 2014, 22:57

With the cover off, I could see the switch under the spacebar and it is indeed neon green.

chzel · 20 Oct 2014, 23:27

klikkyklik wrote: ↑No worries!

According to this it'd be 1989, but ... 24 for MM?

Spoiler:
arche.jpg

Could it be YYWW?
24th week of 1989?

Daniel Beardsmore · 21 Oct 2014, 00:15

Argh. I keep writing MM instead of WW. Must have got a bit of 002 stuck in me ........

Yes, week. This should help Sandy's NBM Hi-Tek switch cataloguing efforts. It's useful to get the date, as in most cases we don't have that data, and it would give us a clearer idea of the history of the different variants.

(Interestingly there's nothing on the chip that represents that date.)

How heavy are the switches, approximately (just a coin stack test)?

klikkyklik · 21 Oct 2014, 01:09

It took approximately 68g of coins to actuate past the tactile bump.

002 · 21 Oct 2014, 04:44

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Must have got a bit of 002 stuck in me

ןɐnxǝs ʎןppo spunos ʇɐɥʇ

Daniel Beardsmore · 21 Oct 2014, 09:48

klikkyklik wrote: ↑It took approximately 68g of coins to actuate past the tactile bump.

Interesting. Here for example, it's 45 g actuation force¹, 85 g terminal force for a black clicky keyboard:

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/review/1283663

(If I understand "키눌림무게는 바닥에서 45g 텍타일포인트에서 85g입니다." correctly)

This is definitely not the same spec as the one Muirium has, which is much stiffer. 70 g actuation sounds around what I would expect based on most people's experiences that tactile and clicky space invaders are comparatively stiff.

What I need to do is draw up a table of switch colours (regular, LED and space bar), date (from PCB), and forces, and see what we come up with. There's a few switch combinations for RT-100/RT-8200 here:

[wiki]NMB RT-100/RT-8200 series[/wiki]

¹ Cherry separate out the pressure force from operation force, since operation (actuation) occurs after the tactile peak. I assume the rest of us just class the tactile peak force as actuation force.

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Oct 2014, 01:51

Page for the figures, with just klikkyklik's for now:

[wiki]NMB Hi-Tek variants[/wiki]

jacobolus · 22 Oct 2014, 06:18

Clicky space invaders I’ve tried were comparable to MX blue. Tactile space invaders were stiffer than MX clear.

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Oct 2014, 09:26

I am not sure that helps — I need specifics: colours, eyes, forces and date code. i.e. is it possible to understand these switches?

klikkyklik · 22 Oct 2014, 17:10

May be a bit off-topic, but Hi-Tek as a company is an enigma. I wish there was a way to find leads in order to contact someone that worked there or even knew of the place back then.

Touch_It · 22 Oct 2014, 19:29

I have Black (big eyes) switches. They are definitely clicky but I feel like they are tactile as well. Is the clicky just playing with my head making me think they are tactile as well?

Muirium · 22 Oct 2014, 19:55

Clicky switches are almost always* tactile too. MX blue for instance has a notable bump as well as click. My black space invaders sound much like yours. They're one of the most common variants.

*Weasel words because I've never encountered a non-tactile switch with a click. Doesn't mean they don't exist though. If they do, they would be "linear with a click", as opposed to all the clicky switches out there which are really "tactile with a click". There's an argument that buckling spring is a natively clicky switch (no fake clicker added like MX blue, the click comes from the spring buckling directly) but there's tactility aplenty in buckling spring. Same for beamspring, its ancestor, which is wonderfully tactile: like a clicky equivalent to Topre.

Touch_It · 22 Oct 2014, 20:52

Ok, so I'm not crazy that's good

. I use a space invaders nmb board (got two of them for free) for my work daily driver. As far as IBM keyboards go I've gotten really lucky and have the pleasure two own several (IBM M Terminal, M2, and F 4704-107 key) All pleasant to type on but the F is glorious. I would have to compare again to feel the tactile bump but i want to say maybe its more subtle. I'm off work in 3 hours and need an excuse to type on it again

.

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Oct 2014, 22:53

I found someone's LinkedIn entry that said that worked for Hi-Tek. Hi-Tek and Stackpole were involved with Licon/Cortron and other companies.

The mystery is their involvement with NMB, as it seemed to be gradual. Early space invader keyboards were branded Hi-Tek on the outside, and NMB/Hi-Tek on the PCB, but we've found a really old one that's only branded Hi-Tek on the PCB. What we don't know is how early NMB got involved, because it could have been long before the branding changed.

Daniel Beardsmore · 23 Oct 2014, 00:15

klikkyklik wrote: ↑With the cover off, I could see the switch under the spacebar and it is indeed neon green.

Linear, I presume? (It should be)

klikkyklik · 23 Oct 2014, 09:27

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑
klikkyklik wrote: ↑With the cover off, I could see the switch under the spacebar and it is indeed neon green.
Linear, I presume? (It should be)

Correct, it is linear.

HaaTa · 23 Oct 2014, 09:31

Muirium wrote:Clicky switches are almost always* tactile too. MX blue for instance has a notable bump as well as click. My black space invaders sound much like yours. They're one of the most common variants.

*Weasel words because I've never encountered a non-tactile switch with a click. Doesn't mean they don't exist though. If they do, they would be "linear with a click", as opposed to all the clicky switches out there which are really "tactile with a click". There's an argument that buckling spring is a natively clicky switch (no fake clicker added like MX blue, the click comes from the spring buckling directly) but there's tactility aplenty in buckling spring. Same for beamspring, its ancestor, which is wonderfully tactile: like a clicky equivalent to Topre.

Clicky Fujitsu Leaf spring.
Click is native too.

Though you could argue it's minutely tactile.

Daniel Beardsmore · 23 Oct 2014, 09:35

klikkyklik wrote: ↑Correct, it is linear.

Cheers. Variants page on the wiki updated. A whole two keyboards on there now btw :)

Why linear for space bar anyway?

klikkyklik · 23 Oct 2014, 14:24

Glad to be of some assistance, and hope to again in the future.

Still looking forward to coming across my first "proper" Hi-Tek black clicky board.

Not sure why linear on the space bar, although it does feel natural...

jacobolus · 23 Oct 2014, 23:35

Here’s a 122-key XT board.

Heavy tactile gray switches + even heavier linear pea-green switch.

terrycherry · 28 Aug 2015, 06:46

czarek wrote: ↑Check this out. Yellow linears (slightly lighter than white linears). Purple linear, it feels like yellow ones on a yellow based board, and feels like a white one on a board with mostly whites.
purple_yellow.jpg
Also grey linear for space bar.
The board with white linears has a green linear space
grey.jpg
Those space invaders are so far my favourite linear switches, and definitely one of the top favourite switches of all times.
I love the short travel, high activation point, decent weight and superb smoothness which can easily rival Topre or BS.

Great yellow switch. I have the same model which is type1 layout(normal one model) with white one eye, white two laugh eyes and Magenta.
Could you take some photo about this PCB and full view of the front case? I hope to see what the difference about the PN on back case and PCB.

seebart · 27 Jun 2017, 21:27

Necropost, I got this clean 4th gen. NMB RT-102 IT the other day with black two-eyed tactile Hi-Tek 725 series switches like klikkyklik's example. The tactility is wild with short keytravel and very imminent tactile feedback combined with a rather heavy keyweight that I have not measured. This is a completely different experience to the clicky Taran RT-101 I got from Chyros. According to the markings inside the case this one dates April 1989.

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