deskthority

webwit wrote: ↑The DataHand. If you ask a human, he or she would say it looks alien. If you ask an alien, it would say it looks human.

And then you realize that a third of the keys require awkward side to side motions that don’t match natural human finger movements, because the inventor of the DataHand had no special anatomical/physiological/ergonomics expertise, but was just some random guy.

Recently I have been trading the symmetry of a HHKB Pro 2 for the more solid sound and feel of a RF 87ub 55g. The TKL suits me better than a full-size, but the asymmetry does bother me.

When using a TKL, I try to line up the "H" key with the center of my monitor (and the midline of my body), but mentally this sets up a phantom island to the left of the keyboard. I would actually prefer to have some keys to the left of the main section of the keyboard.

Of course, putting islands on both sides of the main typing area is the setup on the IBM Model F AT keyboard, but for me, the AT would be even better with just a navigation island where the numeric keypad sits. To round out the symmetry, the F-key island to the left of the main typing area could be expanded to 3 columns instead of 2, thus providing 15 F-keys instead of 10.

Some versions of the IBM 3278 beam spring had rather nice symmetry:
But if there were 3 columns with 5 rows on each side of the main typing area, there would be an abundance of F-keys on the left for those who want them, and a standard inverted-T along with other navigation keys on the right.

As for me, I rarely use F-keys and certainly don't need dedicated ones. The same goes for PageUp, etc. Arrow keys can be nice to have, but for the sake of symmetry I can live with them in a Fn layer. This brings me back to the HHKB Pro 2. Perfect except for lack of a more solid sound and feel. Time for a Type-S with a 55g dome transplant. Or a Kishsaver.

jacobolus wrote: ↑And then you realize that a third of the keys require awkward side to side motions that don’t match natural human finger movements

Source of research which says humans can't move fingers in described way?

I didn’t say they *can’t* move that way. I said it was awkward. The joints in the fingers that move them sideways are the MCP joints (the distal two joints of each finger only flex on one axis), and that lateral motion (especially in middle/ring/pinky fingers) is weak, not super precise, and shares some muscles between fingers, making it difficult to move them independently simultaneously or in rapid succession.

The strongest finger motion is flexion of the MCP joint, followed by flexion of the proximal IP joint. For each finger the DataHand has one button which uses each of these these motions. Another button uses extension of the proximal IP joint (relatively weaker but not too bad), and then the two side buttons use abduction/adduction of the MCP joint (weak, uncoordinated, low range of motion).

Source: any anatomy book which includes a section on fingers/hands (or e.g. Wikipedia), and direct experience of any human who tries to pay attention to their own finger movement.

The DataHand tries to get around this with very low actuation force, but the motions are still quite slow and awkward and IMO uncomfortable. I suppose you could put whole-hand-movement pressure (by turning the wrist or moving the arm) side to side to assist with pressing these keys, but that’s also going to be slow.

What’s the top typing speed achieved on a DataHand?

I’ve personally only ever used one for a few minutes, and I really disliked it, but I grant that some people do seem to like it, and find it usable after substantial practice (seems to be mostly people with severe RSI who can’t use other keyboards).

By the way, does anyone know of a reasonably close-up video showing a proficient DataHand user typing? The only videos I can find on youtube don’t really show the way the hands and fingers move very well.

Let me tell you about playing the guitar, which I only ever tried for a few minutes.

That’s a ridiculous response that totally fails to address anything I said, and cheapens the discussion. I had more respect for you before, webwit.

[But if someone said that the only way to interact with computers was by playing a guitar, I would tell them that sounds crazy, because the motions required to play a guitar are very awkward and uncomfortable, and many serious guitar players get repetitive strain injuries. The reason that musicians put up with really bad ergonomics of instruments is that there is a physical basis to the design (with vibrating strings and resonating wooden tubes and so on). Many or even most instruments are quite poorly designed from a human interface perspective. That is, if you didn’t have to physically manipulate the strings, but could have an arbitrary shaped device which would sense and interpret your gestures and then generate a sound from that, you could make something much more comfortable than a standard guitar, violin, clarinet, or whatever.]

To be honest, I’ve never understood for what reason people need numpads. Why not a second numpad on the left side of the keyboard? But – sigh – I haven’t understood alot other things as well. Murphy’s law: what can be done counterproductively, will be done counterproductively. Almost any criteria of classical keyboards, from assymetry, to layout, typing sound, whatever .. is abit suboptimal in my eyes.

Why not leave the past with it’s awkwardness behind, and go for some seasonable 60% keyboard?

becasue right hand always win in the market

dont forget the average person is right-handed
not all objects can be created symmetry but yeah it's old days i think

Touch_It wrote: ↑Asymmetry doesn't bother me. I find that both asymmetry and symmetry are pleasing to the eye to me. I think more important to me are the layout and the actual looks of the keyboard. IMO there are right and wrong ways to do both Asymmetry and Symmetry with keyboards.

interesting! for me staggering more important than layout

To anwer the OP answer, yes it bothers me. Like someone already mentioned, I moved from fullsize to tkl to 60%.
After I learned to touchtype I tendet to position my kb more to the center of my body, so that I often colide with the keyboard case while gaming. That was the reason to get into TKL keyboards and the style ofc

60% keyboards are especially attractive because they naturally have a nice symmetry!

Doesn't bother me the least bit - not even missmatched multi-monitor setups do as long as they're close enough.

Muirium wrote: ↑Nice line. Bet they didn't dare say that in their marketing!

No joke, if they had they may have sold more.

I don't have an issue with asymmetry in my IBM Model F and the mouse being hard to use because I type with my keyboard in my lap and my mouse mounted to my chair.

For some reason, typing with the keyboard on a table has always been uncomfortable for me.