How to make <> symbols on ANSI Poker using ISO in software..

bktlr · 25 Oct 2014, 04:38

Hello everyone!
I'm in the US for a month so I bought an ANSI poker II thinking there wouldn't be any big problems with the layout.
Now I started up a c++ project and realized that I can't make <> when using ISO in my OS since the small button next to Lshift isn't there in ANSI. Can I program Z to < and X to > in some way? I know how to program keys but how would I do it without having the button to press?
I know I could quickly switch layout in software, make the symbols with ANSI and switch back but that's such a pain.
Pressing FN + Z or X would make the symbols (Not PN since that's my default layer)

Thanks for helping me and sorry for being confusing..

Muirium · 25 Oct 2014, 12:55

This is a good example of why we want real programmable controllers. The Poker's inability to be programmed with keys that it doesn't actually already have is infuriating. All you can do is move things around, you can't add them. I don't know any way to fix this.

Does the Poker work on PS/2 at all? If so, then a workaround with Soarer's converter has you covered. Just like so many of my classic boards. But USB native keyboards are much harder to fix. I have heard of a USB to USB "converter" but I haven't heard of anyone actually using it.

Daniel Beardsmore · 25 Oct 2014, 14:20

Fully expand tree node in Windows is numpad * — I can't program that into my Poker II as it doesn't know that key, either!

Of course, a simple solution for this would be:

Fn+RCtrl — begin programming
Pn+key — one-to-one scancode binding
7 C — scan code for numpad *
(no need to press Pn here, as the keyboard would assume two hex chars, or four if you start E, 0)
Fn+RCtrl — terminate programming

Then you could program any key to be any other key, regardless of whether it exists on your keyboard or not.

Also, you could selectively backlight 0-9, A-F to demonstrate that you're in scancode entry mode.

Muirium · 25 Oct 2014, 14:23

So long as "you" are the designer of the controller, sure!

Daniel Beardsmore · 25 Oct 2014, 15:06

What I'm saying is that it's not an inherent flaw in the design of the Poker II, i.e. it's perfectly possible to program a keyboard from itself to recognise keys it doesn't have. (Maybe Pn would still be used, so that you could program a whole sequence of such keys.)

Also, the Poker II has upgradeable firmware, so it's theoretically possible for this feature to be added, so long as there's sufficient flash ROM capacity for the extra code. In theory you could put any firmware you wanted into a Poker II.

The problem is that the community has its fingers in its ears over its obsession with having to use a C compiler to change how a keyboard behaves — there's some sort of collective refusal in the entire technical community to ever consider usability and marketability. I learnt this the hard way once with a program I wrote (just a silly toy, no less) that I came back to one day and couldn't for the life of me figure out how to use it. It's when even I can't operate my own software that I realise that it's unacceptable to select technical and arcane solutions to problems.

The flip side is that the marketable solutions are frequently proprietary and closed, which means that you're held hostage to someone else's bugs and operating system selections. That's why, for example, I didn't rush out any buy a Roccat 7-button mouse — I don't want to be beholden to Roccat's software that operates the buttons Windows doesn't natively understand (6 and 7).

Muirium · 25 Oct 2014, 15:12

The only entities I'm considering are how the keyboard currently is, and where it ought to be. There are other ways, of course. But the Poker as currently implemented plain falls short, from your suggestions or mine.

mrksprvn · 25 Oct 2014, 19:56

If you use Windows, you can use Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId= ... lcid=0x409) to make a layout with <> keys in the AltGr layer.

cookie · 29 Oct 2014, 10:11

As long as we don't have Programmable controller the best solution would be to set the layout to US-International, it is standardised and you can type special characters with the ANSI layout, this is what I am using for my HHKB and I absolutely love it. Once you get used to ANSI you will definately like it over the ISO layout for programming.

I'd still love to have a programmable controller and a split spacebar but this won't happen in topre-land so quick :/

Try it out, you will see how awesome it is.
Only problem with ansi keyboards in EU is that it is quite hard to get some nice caps, you unfortunately can't salvage old cherrys because of the ISO layout, but this is clearly not your primary problem

prava · 30 Oct 2014, 18:10

@cookie... that would work unless you have particular or unique letters like the... Ñ, if you are a spaniard.

So, its not really that simple, but it is indeed a shame that you can't program keys that aren't on they keyboard... which makes no sense. What else would you try to program in a keyboard that lacks keys that, precisely, the keys you are lacking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Its surprisingly stupid, really.

cookie · 30 Oct 2014, 18:26

It would even worh with Ñ!
Check this out mate, as I said, you will fall in love with it

prava · 30 Oct 2014, 18:46

I do not program... so Id rather have an ISO keyboard now that I will have the keycaps for it.

But, it seems that finding a 60% that sports ALT GR (or R_ALT) will be imposible.

DAMN!!!!

cookie · 30 Oct 2014, 19:30

I like ansi over iso anyway, no matter if you programm or not

Maybe you have misunderstood me, you don't need a keyboard with a dedicated alt-gr, you just set it up in your system. Change your layout settings from whatever you are using to US-International, that is all.

By pressing your right alt you can access all the special character awesomeness!

¹²³¤äåéëáßðfæœ©®€üúíghïœbñµç

Daniel Beardsmore · 30 Oct 2014, 19:36

prava wrote: ↑So, its not really that simple, but it is indeed a shame that you can't program keys that aren't on they keyboard... which makes no sense. What else would you try to program in a keyboard that lacks keys that, precisely, the keys you are lacking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Its surprisingly stupid, really.

I can type keys that aren't on my keyboard, e.g. ctrl+alt+N or alt gr+N gives me "→" — that's not even a valid character for a keyboard so far as I know, but AutoHotkey has the ability to type in Unicode. I don't think any keyboard would ever allow me to do that. Ñ for me is ctrl+alt+shift+# (shift+# = ~) then N; if I were Spanish I'd probably make that ctrl+alt+N and put the arrow somewhere else.

cookie · 30 Oct 2014, 20:45

For me is Ñ altgr+shift+n

prava · 30 Oct 2014, 23:03

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑
prava wrote: ↑So, its not really that simple, but it is indeed a shame that you can't program keys that aren't on they keyboard... which makes no sense. What else would you try to program in a keyboard that lacks keys that, precisely, the keys you are lacking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Its surprisingly stupid, really.
I can type keys that aren't on my keyboard, e.g. ctrl+alt+N or alt gr+N gives me "→" — that's not even a valid character for a keyboard so far as I know, but AutoHotkey has the ability to type in Unicode. I don't think any keyboard would ever allow me to do that. Ñ for me is ctrl+alt+shift+# (shift+# = ~) then N; if I were Spanish I'd probably make that ctrl+alt+N and put the arrow somewhere else.

BTW, which fingers you use for CTRL+ALT + something else? Because my hand gets stretched and its uber uncomfy to use ctrl-alt instead of alt-gr, reason why I'm not happy with my Poker. I think I might be doing something wrong because its clearly not usable. Well, yes, I could do it... but it breaks my typing rythm...

Daniel Beardsmore · 30 Oct 2014, 23:06

prava wrote: ↑BTW, which fingers you use for CTRL+ALT + something else?

Index finger on alt, and ring finger on ctrl.

prava · 31 Oct 2014, 02:23

Now I'm very confused, since you have to completely move your hand to get there and... there is no way you can push 3 keys with your left hand with those fingers.

I think I'm missing something here...

Daniel Beardsmore · 31 Oct 2014, 09:38

Works for me … (I use my other hand for whatever key I want to press together with ctrl and alt)

I make no guarantees that it will work for anyone else! I just found it funny that I'm the opposite of you there.

Zaakessiron · 31 Oct 2014, 10:03

Maybe this can be of use: http://johanegustafsson.net/projects/swerty/

Found it the other day and bookmarked it thinking i need to try is out if i ever buy a ANSI board.

kbdfr · 31 Oct 2014, 10:20

I always wonder why people want keyboards as small as possible and then have to twist their fingers to generate all the missing characters

cookie · 31 Oct 2014, 16:29

What are these guys talking about? I use my right thumb for that, no acrobatic skill necessary

I highly doub't they tried what I suggested :/

prava · 02 Nov 2014, 16:46

kbdfr wrote: ↑I always wonder why people want keyboards as small as possible and then have to twist their fingers to generate all the missing characters

Its not about the form factor... it is about having no alt gr.

For instance, with ISO-ES language:

€: requires altgr+E. Or ctrl+alt+E. Much, much easier to do the first than the second.

@: altgr+2. Or ctrl+alt+2.

#: altgr+3. Or ctrl+alt+3.

cookie · 03 Nov 2014, 12:20

Guys, the keyboard you plugged in does not determine if you have an alt gr. key or not, its the layout you have set in your operating system! For example, you can plug in a poker and set the keyboard layout to german. And the bottom right "alt" key will be recognized as "alt gr"

So basically, if you buy a HHKB and set the layout to US-International, you can access the special characters just by pressing the normal "alt" key on the bottom right and it will automatically be the same as if you've pressed an "alt gr"

Holy christ... Am I missing something?