Topre Realforce 104UG HiPro: is it "the best"?

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Cherry1990

30 Oct 2014, 23:51

I own some old Cherry G80-3000 (vintage black, black, clear) and use modern QPAD MK-50 Brown, Red and Black.

I would like something better than Cherry (with original Cherry double-shot, PBT etc.).
Is Topre Realforce 104UG HiPro the best you can buy? Is keyboard.com the only source in Europe?

Never tried a Topre. A couple of things I don't like of the 104UG HiPro: the grey keycaps and the rubber dome. Cream or white keycaps would be better, but I think they are not available for this model and I don't want a cream ABS case because it will become yellow with age.

Thank you.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

31 Oct 2014, 00:05

I can say this much: it feels nothing whatsoever like the switches you describe. Whether you consider it better or worse, I cannot say. I preferred MX brown over Topre variable for its much sharper feel. Topre is nice, but I preferred MX brown, and since then I moved to MX red.

My Realforce has gone to someone who isn't a keyboard enthusiast, so it will be interesting to see what verdict I get from that in the end.

User avatar
Cherry1990

31 Oct 2014, 00:22

It 's my fear: throw a lot of money out the window and discover that I don't like Topre rubber dome... I used "old" (ten years old) Lenovo keyboards and they are not bad but I still like more my Cherry boards...
I would like something better than G80-3000 with thin PBT laser etched but I don't know what...

User avatar
Muirium
µ

31 Oct 2014, 00:37

Cherry1990 wrote: Is keyboard.com the only source in Europe?
Whatever you do, don't go there! Keyboardco.com is another story… I see they carry the HiPro now, which is nice. But at a princely price, as always.

As for Topre: it's costly stuff to get into. They are indeed domes, but if you let that dominate your thoughts you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. The important part about them is the capsense. They fire nice and high up, even more so than most mechanical switches. Normal rubberdomes must hit rock bottom, which is quite wrong.

If you fancy exploring beyond MX, I suggest IBM. If you can stand the noise, there's nothing else quite like them. And if you like full size keyboards, Model Ms and Fs are built like tanks and cost a whole lot less than Topres.

Just bear in mind: there is no such thing as "the best" keyboard. There are lots of them!

User avatar
Cherry1990

31 Oct 2014, 12:51

Sorry! I made a mistake, it was "keyboardco.com", the UK seller...
I am restoring a very old IBM keyboard (from 1986 if I remember correctly) and it is nice but I would like to try something new...
After tried IBM Model M, Cherry MX Black, Clear, Red, Brown etc., Lenovo rubber dome etc. what you have yet to try?

I would like to try double shot PBT keycaps, but they are too expensive (from USA)...

User avatar
Muirium
µ

31 Oct 2014, 13:05

What are you really looking for? You're talking about different caps, but what do you want from switches, and overall layout?

Model Ms are okay, but the real IBMs are Model Fs, which are twice the weight and have a smooth, sharp action that clicky fans like me really enjoy. But bear in mind they sound like this:
That's my little Kishsaver. (Highly sought after, cost a fortune.) But an XT feels just as good, and if you can adapt to the layout, they're a bargain:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/291278077775?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT

NKRO and fully remappable with Soarer's converter.

But this is just the IBM fan coming out in me! I don't really know what you want…

User avatar
Cherry1990

31 Oct 2014, 13:39

Muirium wrote: What are you really looking for? You're talking about different caps, but what do you want from switches, and overall layout?
Model Ms are okay, but the real IBMs are Model Fs
What are you really looking for?
Honestly? I don't know! :mrgreen:
For this reason I am asking and searching information...

I like PBT caps more than ABS. I am speaking about Cherry, the only I know. Also caps from my Model M are very nice.
Layout: I always used ANSI. Now, with EurKey, I am enjoying it even more!

Model F have a very metallic sound... Fascinating, very vintage... But, probably, I need more experience and will to work with these old keyboards than the one I have now...

I am searching for a daily use keyboard, to use at home and/or at work. Anyway, I will investigate about these old Model F... Thank you!

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

31 Oct 2014, 15:44

sounds like you need to "try before you buy"! I did not like topre enough to keep my Realforce variable but that's a matter of preference. You say you like MX's? Then why topre? The build quality is exceptional though. Like Mu said, there is no "best" keyboard!

User avatar
Muirium
µ

31 Oct 2014, 16:22

There is of course a try before you buy Topre tour going on right now:

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... t7734.html

You're almost eligible. Ask 002 and he might let you in!

User avatar
Hypersphere

31 Oct 2014, 23:41

Having tried just about every keyboard ever made, I have recently sold all but one of my newly bought Cherry mx keyboards. I still have some vintage Cherry mx boards, but I will put these on the market after doing some refurbishing. I do like some of the keycap sets that are available for Cherry mx stems, but the switches are just not to my liking at all.

Although it may not be perfect, I think the best keyboard that is still being produced is the Realforce 87ub 55g.

By far, the best form factor (60%) and layout is the HHKB Pro 2, and the Type-S in this line rivals the RF 87ub 55g for overall quality.

Considering vintage keyboards, the best are IBM. Beam springs are arguably the finest switch type, but for a more practical keyboard that can still be found for a reasonable price, the Model F line is superb (XT, AT, F122). Harder to find Model F boards include the F107, F77, and F62 (Kishsaver), as well as the 104 ("space unsaver"). Finally, there are the Model M boards (101, 122, and 84, also known as the SSK). Although I prefer the sound and feel of Model F switches over Model M switches, I really like the looks, layout, and size of my SSK.

While not as good as IBM or Topre, but better than Cherry mx, there are some other vintage boards that are rather good, including the SIIG 84 with Monterey blue Alps, and sundry boards with other versions of Alps or NMB Hi-Tek "space invader" switches.

Honorable mention goes to some contemporary boards made by Matias, such as the Mini Tactile Pro and Mini Quiet Pro.

Usual disclaimer: the foregoing represent personal opinion and YMMV.

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 00:43

Hypersphere wrote: Although it may not be perfect, I think the best keyboard that is still being produced is the Realforce 87ub 55g.
Why? What is the reason?

About vintage keyboards: not easy to find in Europe and I don't want to spend a fortune for shipment and custom from USA...

User avatar
Muirium
µ

01 Nov 2014, 09:35

Vintage IBMs are mostly quite easy to find and reasonably cheap inside Europe. The XT (like the one I linked earlier) is the perfect way into Model F. They were a fairly common but exceptionally well made board, long ago when standards were much higher. And all Model Fs sound and feel much the same, so you can judge based on one.

Hyper's American and tends to think from their perspective. He was advising impossible to find over here boards like the KUL until recently when he went off MX entirely. I'd take a Ducky any day.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

01 Nov 2014, 10:29

Yes I would have to add that my Ducky Zero is probably THE sturdiest and best build quality of my "new" keyboards. Since you like Cherry MX you might want to check out some Ducky keyboards. They are cheaper and easier to find than Topre too.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

01 Nov 2014, 10:35

Here's a place in Finland that has a good selection (thanks to DT's own Ducky Nordic):

https://www.teraset.net/ducky.php

Ducky's interesting when it comes to caps. They sell some very nice thick PBT sets, and have certain keyboard models which come equipped with them by default. Thick PBT is something you might want to try, because it feels more different than you'd think.

Teraset's also got a handful of what I consider to be the nicest looking Realforce of all (well, along with the completely unobtainable Korean cream HiPro). Not cheap! They never are. Or I'd have a few…

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

01 Nov 2014, 12:15

now I remember why I have not checked teraset in a long time because whenever I do I find something that I want to get but I really should not like those premier PBT keycaps!
[emoji12]

User avatar
Muirium
µ

01 Nov 2014, 12:20

I know what you mean…

Image

User avatar
Hypersphere

01 Nov 2014, 14:36

Cherry1990 wrote:
Hypersphere wrote: Although it may not be perfect, I think the best keyboard that is still being produced is the Realforce 87ub 55g.
Why? What is the reason?

About vintage keyboards: not easy to find in Europe and I don't want to spend a fortune for shipment and custom from USA...
Regarding the RF 87ub 55g, this is just my opinion, reflecting my preferences after sampling many keyboards representing various form factors, layouts, switch types, keycap types, and manufacturers. In this case, I tend to prefer TKL or 60% form factors, ANSI layout that can be reconfigured to ANSI/Mac/HHKB via a combination of DIP switches and remapping software, IBM buckling spring or Topre (with a preference for the heavier 55g Topre), dye-sublimated PBT keycaps, and a manufacturer with high production standards. The RF 87ub 55g meets all these criteria, and it is still being produced. To me, the RF 87ub 55g looks good, feels good, and sounds good. I enjoy typing on it and I get somewhat higher speed and accuracy on it than I do with other keyboards.

However, you should take all this with a grain of salt -- as Mu has pointed out, I am an American with limited perspective, apt to recommend items that are impossible to find elsewhere. ;)

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 15:18

Muirium wrote: Here's a place in Finland that has a good selection...
Very interesting site! Unfortunately they have ISO layouts and, over all, German or Nordic, absolutely unnecessary for me because I live in Italy.
I also need a full keyboard because I absolutely need accented vowels that are compulsory in Italian. I am trying EurKey and it is very nice but I discover that it doesn't work well with software who already have the "ALT+F" command etc. embedded. Unfortunately Italian layout is very uncommon and also with some deficiences.

I agree with you about thick PBT dye-sub. I absolutely want it. PBT is clearly better than ABS and I hope dye-sub lasts more than laser engraving...

I like a lot this keyboard:
Ducky Premier ISO Nordic Cream Cheese & Green PBT Cherry MX Brown

I will investigate to find it with ANSI layout.

What do you think about Ducky vs. Filco? I was thinking that Filco was better than Ducky, but Filco has ABS keycaps (I think...). Any other surce for ANSI Ducky in Europe?
Muirium wrote: ... the completely unobtainable Korean cream HiPro)
I had seen this keyboard before... TOO sexy!!! I love it!!!

User avatar
Hypersphere

01 Nov 2014, 15:55

@Cherry1900: I lived in Padua for a while, some years ago. My landlord furnished an Olivetti computer for me that ran the Italian edition of WordStar for DOS, but as I recall, the computers and keyboards at work were standard ANSI layout. My boss used a Toshiba laptop.

Regarding your question about Ducky vs Filco, I had a Ducky Shine II with mx browns. It was okay, but I was not impressed by the quality. However, I have heard that Ducky's quality control has improved markedly since the days of the Ducky Shine II. I also had a Filco Majestouch TKL Ninja with mx blues, and I was favorably impressed with the quality.

At first, I didn't like the Costar-type stabilizers, because this made things more difficult when changing keycaps on the stabilized keys. However, after trying keyboards with Cherry vs Costar-type stabilizers, on balance I prefer the Costar type -- although they rattle more than the Cherry stabilizers, I prefer the less mushy feel of the keys.

One thing I didn't like about the Filco was its fixed USB cable. However, if you don't change keyboards frequently, this becomes a non-issue. My Realforce has a fixed cable, but its other qualities more than compensate for this slight inconvenience. Moreover, a fixed cable could be regarded as a plus, because you don't have to worry about the connector wearing out.

My Filco had ABS keycaps, but I had the "Ninja" model with the printing on the front of the cap where it can't wear out. I actually liked these caps, but I replaced them with an Olivetti double-shot set from Originative. The Olivetti set was ABS, but it was beautiful (blue legends on a cream-white background for the alpha keys and a light gray background for the modifiers).

BTW, regarding caps, one of the best values at present is the PBT set from Leopold. Unfortunately, they are either blanks, front-printed, or top printed only as laser-engraved; however, they are very well made and the price is quite reasonable. I got mine from a Korean reseller on eBay; I am not sure about availability in Europe.

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 16:22

@Hypersphere: Olivetti computers are from the 80s when in Italy ANSI layout was probably more common than nowadays. It is very difficult to find ANSI layout now in Italy. Only (few) programmers use ANSI in Italy today, normal people need Italian layout to avoid serious grammatical errors (without the numeric pad).

I checked for the "Ducky Premier DK9008P Cream Cheese and Green" (ANS / MX Brown) but seems to be discontinued in Europe and USA.

I know the "ninja" keycaps, but I don't feel them useful for me. Also after 30 years I still need prints over keycaps... :D
Probably more now than 20 years ago... :mrgreen:

My Cherry double shot ABS keycaps seem to be "olive oil" painted... Not nice. PBT absolutely.

Seems that Ducky doesn't produce thick PBT dye-sub keycaps set for spare parts... :cry:

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

01 Nov 2014, 16:29

I have a Poker 2 with PBT caps for sale but it's ISO layout.

User avatar
Hypersphere

01 Nov 2014, 16:33

@Cherry1990: I have some dye-sub thick PBT keycaps from Ducky, but they might have discontinued these. Some limited sets are still available from Imsto, which has a store on eBay. I also got some from geek_feng on Geekhack, but he has not had them in stock for some time. Vortex makes double-shot PBT caps, but I don't particularly like the colors or fonts. Yes, definitely, PBT caps feel the best.

The dye-sub PBT caps are among the many reasons why I like Topre, HHKB, and vintage IBM keyboards -- the stock dye-sub PBT keycaps are beautiful, and there are even some custom keycaps available for these keyboards, although nothing like the variety that can be found for Cherry mx stems.

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 17:09

seebart wrote: I have a Poker 2 with PBT caps for sale but it's ISO layout.
What "flavour"?

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Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 17:16

Hypersphere wrote: Vortex makes double-shot PBT caps, but I don't particularly like the colors or fonts.
I saw them on keypuller.com and would like to try but shipment cost, custom etc. make them a bit expensive for me... With the same money I can buy a Filco or almost the Topre entry level... For the font, I agree with you, not the best...

I am new to keyboard world (also if I own and use Cherry keyboards from 1990 but I mean keycaps, "strange" brands etc.) but I find very boring that almost everything is sold out, discontinued, limited edition etc. etc. I have other hobbies and everything is, almost always, available... :evil:

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

01 Nov 2014, 17:32

MX Blue "flavour" with German ISO topping then. :mrgreen:
Last edited by seebart on 01 Nov 2014, 19:30, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 19:20

seebart wrote: MX Blue "flavour".
Ok, I prefer chocolate instead blackberries... :mrgreen:
I meant what ISO language. ;)

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

01 Nov 2014, 19:31

Check your PM´s and see the "flavour" picture!

It´s German ISO.

User avatar
Cherry1990

01 Nov 2014, 23:34

seebart wrote: It´s German ISO.
Ah! I checked the PM before read this message. German layout is unsuitable for me... A good PBT set wasted for my use! :cry:
Thanks anyway. ;)

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