deskthority

As a note, I'm personally sceptical about the value of giving out the little Mitsumi switches for people to try. I don't believe that pressing a switch in your hand is a good representation of how a keyboard using that switch will feel to type on, since you're pressing the switch in a completely different way to how you would when typing.

Also, with those stiff Alps clones, they're fine for two-finger typing where you press down vertically with your finger, while proper typing will be much harder. I can't, for example, find any fault with any Alps clone switches if hold them in my hand and press them and, if anything, Omron B3G-S felt much worse than any Alps clone for stiffness. I couldn't imagine wanting to use a B3G-S keyboard.

I've never used a keyboard with the mini Mitsumis, and gogusrl is the first person so far to describe them as feeling anything like what mine feel like — most reports seemed to indicate they were devoid of feeling. They don't feel like anything else I've ever tried, but a longer-travel ML is one way of looking at them.

Cindy probably still has such a keyboard, but the price was far too high to ship such a battered relic all the way from the US just so that I could compare the switches.

Attempting to compare for example with SKBM White in my Tactile Pro 3:
SKBM White has at least two tactile peaks. If you press the switch slowly, you'll feel the first one, but the switch doesn't drop all the way down: it gets caught on another, lesser, tactile bump. The first tactile point is also exceptionally sharp, giving it something of a jarring feel and impeding your typing.

My "KLT2" (mini Mitsumi) switches have much smoother tactility. The tactile point is rounded, more like Topre — you don't get the "stabbing" feeling that you get from SKBM White and brand new blue Cherry. Once you pass the tactile peak, it's straight down. Like Alps and Topre, the tactile peak is near the top, which some people prefer.

It's a smooth but somewhat heavy switch with exceptional tactility; I couldn't possibly say with any certainty what it would feel like to type on, though. They're also somewhat scratchy too, which bothers a lot of people (personally I don't notice the scratchiness of MX red when typing). I would suggest that they're probably like a poor man's Topre uniform 55 g, as the latter would be a lot smoother.

If anything, I should give some away to jacobolus and/or HaaTa (whoever's doing the measurements) so that we can get mine properly recorded.

More grist for the mill, then. If and when I pick up something else from Cindy, I'll add that Mitsumi board of hers if no one else has taken it in the meantime.

If you do get it, maybe I should send you a couple of switches so that you can compare loose switches with a whole keyboard. I'm just confused as to why most verdicts of these keyboards doesn't match the impression I get.

We're right in the deep end of subjective impressions, that's why.

For what it's worth, I found that a real keyboard full of Topre (Realforce, HHKB and now NovaTouch) feels "just like" the loose Topre tester switch in Mr. Interface's sampler. Buckling spring isn't too different to his Model M tester, either. The ones I have found a bit different are the damped Alps, which are much nicer in a board (my AEK II) than loose in hand, and same for Montereys. So it's all a bit inconsistent. Definitely more informative than nothing, though.

If I get hold of that board (only likely many months from now) I might send you the whole thing before I go harvesting bits. I'll clean it first (I'm picky that way), just don't go busting up any more of these fiddly little switches!

Oh, I'm not going to break any more of them. I am not honestly sure I want that keyboard — too much clutter and it's not even complete. I can wait until I get the opportunity to obtain a complete one for a sensible price.

So who does want some of the mini Mitsumis?

If you have some to spare, I'd like to try them.

OK, how many did you each want? I believe I already have both of your addresses, so long as neither of you have moved lately.

http://i.imgur.com/kM4zePg.jpg
The bunker ramo #3 Kb uses ITW magnetic valve switches. These are the tactile ones with rubberdomes.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/ITW_magnetic_valve

since they are non-contact they are probably some of the longest-lasting domes there are.

It would be awesome to have four of them, so I could build a little arrow cluster. My address is still the same.

dorkvader wrote: ↑Since they are non-contact they are probably some of the longest-lasting domes there are.

Like Topre? I've heard those can take a years long beating pretty well. Maybe not as long lived as more traditional mechanical switches (sans domes) but far ahead of cheap domes on membranes.

@Daniel: I'm in for 4 Mitsumis too. If you have some which feel odd (besides the decapitated) feel free to pop one in as well, but no need to exhaust your own supply of anything. These are for curiosity more than true research!

Oh, and same address for me as well. Thanks!

OK, I'll get those shipped out at some point. Mine shouldn't feel odd as they're all new old stock, so far as I know.

Muirium wrote: ↑

dorkvader wrote: ↑Since they are non-contact they are probably some of the longest-lasting domes there are.

Like Topre? I've heard those can take a years long beating pretty well. Maybe not as long lived as more traditional mechanical switches (sans domes) but far ahead of cheap domes on membranes.

@Daniel: I'm in for 4 Mitsumis too. If you have some which feel odd (besides the decapitated) feel free to pop one in as well, but no need to exhaust your own supply of anything. These are for curiosity more than true research!

Oh, and same address for me as well. Thanks!

Yeah They'll last basically forever. Now (also like topre, alphameric, etc.) they probably won't feel too great after a few dozen million actuations. Some argue they don't feel too great now.

Got my hands on another very nice keyboard. It's a Chicony KB-5192 FCC:E8H5IKKB-5191 with blue thai dyesubs (i think they're arabic, and dyesubs) and mx clear/white clones.

Here are teh pics :






One day I'll learn to take better pictures. Until then, this is the best I can provide

edit : they're thai not arabic.

That's a lovely key set. Nice find!

Ok, I'm still having trouble differentiating dyesubs from padprint or other types of legend application techniques. Currently, if they're not doubleshots they all pretty much look the same.

Also got some really really nice creamy white / gray ALPS doubleshots that I can't wait to find something to use them on (up to 3 alps clones so far, no real alps). Will post pics of those as well.



edit :

After cleanup, taking another look at the keys it seems that the latin stuff is pad printed and the thai chars are dyesubbed. Googling now how to take macro shots.

Is is normal that the small plastic inserts that hold the costar wire to be glued to the stem ? I've tried to pull one out and it broke (didn't have this problem with ALPS keycaps).

Here are some of pics of them cleaned up while trying to fit them on a G80-1800 and failing miserably :

Despite speaking to several vendors and manufacturers, I'm still none the wiser about pad printing. There are basically two common approaches:

[wiki]Pad printing[/wiki]

Most modern keyboards are "selective image" clear coated; this is your "decal" look, where a protective coating is applied over the legend with a wide margin. These are easy to spot.

The other approach, that went out of fashion, was "thick ink", where the letters are visibly raised, and formed from some sort of gloss paint.

Those two methods are very easy to recognise.

Some manufacturers clear-coat the whole surface of the keycap (Cherry used this with G84 keyboards) or seemingly the whole outer surface of the keycap (Filco). Clear coating can be used with lasered legends as well. With Filco keycaps you can feel the legends, as the ink is laid on sufficiently thick.

You still see thick ink printing; the ink is not glossy these days, though, but I assume it's still pad printed.

Dye sublimated legends are always flush with the surface of the keycap, always matt finish, and often a bit fuzzy from where the ink spread as it soaked in. They often don't have the sharp edges you see with other printing methods, although Acer did a good job with their keyboards (give or take a few distortions from printing errors).

Doubleshots on the other hand sometimes have gaps or depressions in the legend where the first shot didn't quite fill the mould.

That settles it then, it's all pad printed. Now how do I fix that broken leg ?

Glued inserts? I guess you just glue the pieces back together ;-)

Really nice find And vintage clears, this is one cool board, also the caps are cool with those legends Really nice for Romania where this kind of things are rare as Dodo birds

I'm pretty sure those aren't vintage clears (or if they are they feel like shit) and instead they're http://deskthority.net/wiki/Aristotle_Cherry_MX_clone .

I've spent more time than I want to admit browsing local websites for keyboards and putting up threads on every forum I could find.

My G81-HAU caps are finally here :




And the guy with the HALL keyboard came back with more stuff :


IBM Selectric (anything fun I can do with this one ? )



Cherry 601-1118 (according to him)



Robotron K7673



I'll get my hands on them next week and will come back with more details (can't wait for that DSA cherry).

gogusrl wrote: ↑That settles it then, it's all pad printed. Now how do I fix that broken leg ?

There's some macro shots here:

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/the-m ... t1853.html

Another bloke posted a similar set of photos, I seem to recall (I don't recognise the page above — it just came up in another topic).

The difference between those dyesubs and the pad printed one is minuscule.

Went to a local fair today, came back with my first ANSI Model M and a g84-4100. I love the size of that G84 but I can't say the same about the layout.