deskthority

cinnamonrollz wrote: ↑The actuation force from m to f while not very much lower makes a huge difference.(atleast going from bolt modded m to 4704 board)

My 4704 107-key board feels the most like the Model M out of all of the Model Fs I have tried; it's the stiffest (although not nearly as stiff as the Model M and it feels better). It's honestly my least favorite Model F that I've tried as far as key feel goes, I prefer the XT and the Bigfoot, but I use it daily because it's still a great keyboard and actually has a usable layout.

I would submit that the F-122 ANSI mod is the closest you will get to a standard layout in a Model F.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48 ... msg1338079

Muirium wrote: ↑Until recently, Model Fs were all quite large. But last year, thanks to Kishy and SmallFry's detective work, the "Kishsaver" 4704 series burst onto the scene. These are seriously rare and high end, metal bodied keyboards. And with Xwhatsit's controller inside, they are perfectly usable today! If only there were enough of them to go round…

Thanks. Now I have an idea of what "Kishsavers" are and why they're called that. But as I said, I'm not much into hunting after ultra-rare boards and experimenting with them. Basically, I want to unbox, plug in, and start typing. Okay, I may be willing to do some extra work in return for some extra benefits, but for me there is a limit to the amount that extra work ("diminishing marginal utility", etc.).

It's a bit like with cars: I want to buy one and drive off. I understand that lying under an expensive vintage model for weeks and months, tweaking and "modding" it until you finally can drive the first mile can be very satisfying in itself, but frankly it's not for me.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your help and find all this very interesting!

Hypersphere wrote: ↑@Thomas: You might not want to give up entirely on the XT just yet. In case this might be helpful to you, here is what I have done with the layout on my XT

Thanks, it's interesting to see what can be done about the XT when you have the skills. Still, even with all your work and expertise invested, the XT seems to have a major flaw (for me) that can't be overcome: There's just one key to the left of the space bar. As I said somewhere above, I'm already having a pretty hard time getting along without the Windows key... With yet another key missing from my board's bottom left area I'd be lost completely.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑The XT can still be found relatively cheaply on eBay and elsewhere. It has a great typing sound and feel, and the layout is quite flexible, providing many options.

Okay then... If it can be found cheaply, maybe I'll try to get one after all. But I'm afraid "cheap" probably means something different to me than it does to you: I paid 55 EUR (43 GPB, 68 USD) for my Model M and personally I felt this was already pretty expensive (although I do know they can be a lot more expensive than that.)

@Thomas, another consideration is that while Unicomp does make the EnduraPro Black Buckling Spring USB with a Pointing stick device...

...the Unicomp variant uses Unicomp’s "force sensing resistor" pointing stick technology which is different to proprietary IBM "strain gauge" trackpoint design.

Some long-time users of IBM's classic and durable ThinkPads find using the Unicomp trackpoints to be slower and less precise due to the different calibration of force and distance. For example: http://www.pettijohn.com/2010/05/pointi ... undup.html

Some additional reading about IBM's trackpoint and negative inertia feature of IBM trackpoint II used in keyboards like the IBM model M13
http://www.sigchi.org/chi95/proceedings ... cb_bdy.htm

@Thomas: Regarding mods to the left of the spacebar, I took care of this by remapping F9 and F10 as Control and Alt/Option. This was actually more than I needed, because I already had remapped CapsLock as Control.

I paid 51 USD for my XT. The least expensive one that I have cost 19 USD and the most expensive was over 100 USD. Prices seem to have gone up lately on eBay, but "elecplus" (Cindy), a vendor member of DT, sells them for much less than most of the ones on eBay.

The easiest way to get an XT working is with a "plug and play" Hagstrom converter, which costs about 56 USD. You would still need to use remapping software to assign keys to your satisfaction. I used this approach for a while before I decided to do a complete refurbishing and to install a Teensy and Soarer's Converter -- this is better, because now the remapping travels with the keyboard if I want to use it on other computers.

faceyourfaces wrote: ↑

cinnamonrollz wrote: ↑The actuation force from m to f while not very much lower makes a huge difference.(atleast going from bolt modded m to 4704 board)

My 4704 107-key board feels the most like the Model M out of all of the Model Fs I have tried; it's the stiffest (although not nearly as stiff as the Model M and it feels better). It's honestly my least favorite Model F that I've tried as far as key feel goes, I prefer the XT and the Bigfoot, but I use it daily because it's still a great keyboard and actually has a usable layout.

Not to get off topic, but I find that interesting. The only Model F I own and have tried is the 107 key. Guess I will be forced to buy another at some point.

clickykeyboards wrote: ↑@Thomas, another consideration is that while Unicomp does make the EnduraPro Black Buckling Spring USB with a Pointing stick device...

...the Unicomp variant uses Unicomp’s "force sensing resistor" pointing stick technology which is different to proprietary IBM "strain gauge" trackpoint design.

Some long-time users of IBM's classic and durable ThinkPads find using the Unicomp trackpoints to be slower and less precise due to the different calibration of force and distance. For example: http://www.pettijohn.com/2010/05/pointi ... undup.html

Yes, I heard about this, too; I think I even read about it on pettjohn.com. On the other hand, I remember some people said they were fine with both Thinkpad and Unicomp Trackpoints (or whatever Unicomp officially calls it). Anyway, I have an IBM SK-8840 very similar to the one mentioned (except it also has a touchpad which I don't really need) and can confirm it's very good. It just isn't mechanical.

I'm prepared to take the risk and get a Unicomp, for two reasons:

First, even though the Unicomp Trackpoint may not feel the same as the Thinkpad one, it's probably better than no Trackpoint at all.
Second, even if it turns out that I hate the Unicomp Trackpoint, the board without the Trackpoint is just 20 USD cheaper. Considering that shipping is 66 USD, this is a negligible quantity.

But while we're at it, another two questions: What type are the Trackpoints on the M13 and the Tex Yoda? Unicomp or Thinkpad?

Hypersphere wrote: ↑@Thomas: Regarding mods to the left of the spacebar, I took care of this by remapping F9 and F10 as Control and Alt/Option. This was actually more than I needed, because I already had remapped CapsLock as Control.

Okay, but that means F9 and F10 are occupied by Control and Alt/Option and not available for other purposes. Which is even worse as the XT board has just 10 F keys instead of the usual 12 (or even 24 on the 122 Model F).

Hypersphere wrote: ↑I paid 51 USD for my XT. The least expensive one that I have cost 19 USD and the most expensive was over 100 USD. Prices seem to have gone up lately on eBay, but "elecplus" (Cindy), a vendor member of DT, sells them for much less than most of the ones on eBay. The easiest way to get an XT working is with a "plug and play" Hagstrom converter, which costs about 56 USD. You would still need to use remapping software to assign keys to your satisfaction. I used this approach for a while before I decided to do a complete refurbishing and to install a Teensy and Soarer's Converter -- this is better, because now the remapping travels with the keyboard if I want to use it on other computers.

Okay, I'll have a look at any XT on offer here. However, even if I paid only 19 USD for the board itself, the idea of spending another 56 USD on a converter makes me cringe. And there's always the shipping costs, usually 60 USD or more, to make the whole package even less attractive.

Being a keyboard enthusiast is an expensive and time-consuming pursuit, but it has its psychological rewards.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑Being a keyboard enthusiast is an expensive and time-consuming pursuit, but it has its psychological rewards.

Indeed! One starts seeing keyboards everywhere, all around him ... without being delusional

This evening I went back to my IBM XT. I put a 1x Right Bracket "]" key back where it belongs (and remapped it back to Right Bracket), and put the stock vertical Enter key back in its default position and remapped this as Backspace (Reverse Delete). This arrangement more closely approximates the relative positions of the Enter, Backspace, and Right Bracket keys on my HHKB and other keyboards that I have remapped to the HHKB layout.

I tried a few Typeracer tests, and sure enough, right away I was hitting the new Backspace location when I needed to delete something (which for me is often!).

This layout and configuration of keys feels more natural than what I had before, and it is arguably an aesthetic improvement as well, because the vertical Enter (now Backspace) fills in the empty space that was left open in my former setup.

Perhaps this will help Thomas and/or others who are considering the IBM XT keyboard.

Hypersphere wrote:This evening I went back to my IBM XT. I put a 1x Right Bracket "]" key back where it belongs (and remapped it back to Right Bracket), and put the stock vertical Enter key back in its default position and remapped this as Backspace (Reverse Delete). This arrangement more closely approximates the relative positions of the Enter, Backspace, and Right Bracket keys on my HHKB and other keyboards that I have remapped to the HHKB layout.

I tried a few Typeracer tests, and sure enough, right away I was hitting the new Backspace location when I needed to delete something (which for me is often!).

This layout and configuration of keys feels more natural than what I had before, and it is arguably an aesthetic improvement as well, because the vertical Enter (now Backspace) fills in the empty space that was left open in my former setup.

Perhaps this will help Thomas and/or others who are considering the IBM XT keyboard.

Care to post a pic?. I'm having a hard time picturing that.

Thomas wrote: ↑Thanks. Now I have an idea of what "Kishsavers" are and why they're called that. But as I said, I'm not much into hunting after ultra-rare boards and experimenting with them. Basically, I want to unbox, plug in, and start typing.

We're on the same wavelength! I definitely *do not* advise anyone in their right mind to go clambering down the Kishsaver rabbit hole, after the "modern Model F". Those of us who do are the kind of guys who already have several top notch boards for daily use and are hunting some other grail besides.

Go for the trackpointy Unicomp. If its feel is what you like, you've just ticked all your boxes! You're lucky, being into full-size boards…

The Unicomp pointing stick does not deserve the TrackPoint name, though. Myself, I don't use the pointing stick on mine, except for when my ScrollPoint is acting up and I need a pointing device for a quick moment and don't want to wait for it to reset.

It's that bad, and I'm usually fine with Alps pointing sticks (I prefer real TrackPoints, but still automatically go for an Alps pointing stick and am fairly accurate with one).

As far as the keyboards go, though, I find that the later the production on a Model M, the better. I like moderate force and low preload, and earlier keyboards tend to have a higher force curve all around. Once my 2008 vintage EnduraPro broke in, it became my favorite (lowest force) Model M.

That said, I still prefer my 122-key Model F...

Also, as far as the M13 goes... I think it's a bit overrated. It uses the original TrackPoint II, which isn't very sensitive and doesn't have adjustable sensitivity (a TrackPoint IV (1998 or so) feature), and also is missing the negative inertia feature of the TrackPoint III (which was on all ThinkPads starting in 1995 or so, and improves precision quite a bit - that's also the one feature that Alps pointing sticks are missing).

Muirium wrote: ↑Go for the trackpointy Unicomp. If its feel is what you like, you've just ticked all your boxes! You're lucky, being into full-size boards…

Yes, if the feel is what I like... From what I've read here so far there is really no other way than to order one and try it myself.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑The Unicomp pointing stick does not deserve the TrackPoint name, though. Myself, I don't use the pointing stick on mine, except for when my ScrollPoint is acting up and I need a pointing device for a quick moment and don't want to wait for it to reset. It's that bad, and I'm usually fine with Alps pointing sticks (I prefer real TrackPoints, but still automatically go for an Alps pointing stick and am fairly accurate with one).

Yes, they officially call it "pointing stick" instead of TrackPoint, which is an IBM/Lenovo trademark. My hope was that even if it's not the real thing, it may still be good enough or at least better than nothing – the TrackPoints on ThinkPad keyboards never bothered me when I was typing.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑As far as the keyboards go, though, I find that the later the production on a Model M, the better. I like moderate force and low preload, and earlier keyboards tend to have a higher force curve all around.

Now that's slightly confusing, as the reason I started this thread in the first place was that I found the actuation force on my 1997 Model M to be too high.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑Once my 2008 vintage EnduraPro broke in, it became my favorite (lowest force) Model M.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "breaking in". Are you talking about the process of getting used to it subjectively or are you saying that its actual physical properties change after some time? Is the EnduraPro's actuation force lower than original newish Model M's? That would make it more interesting for me.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑Also, as far as the M13 goes... I think it's a bit overrated. It uses the original TrackPoint II, which isn't very sensitive and doesn't have adjustable sensitivity (a TrackPoint IV (1998 or so) feature), and also is missing the negative inertia feature of the TrackPoint III (which was on all ThinkPads starting in 1995 or so, and improves precision quite a bit - that's also the one feature that Alps pointing sticks are missing).

I had no idea there were so many different versions of TrackPoints around. I have only been using them since the late 2000s, so I have really no comparison.

As for the M13, my interest in it is rather theoretical, as they are rare and therefore expensive. Also, I've never seen one with a European layout, which I would prefer to have.

Anyway, you mention Alps pointing sticks—which boards are they on?

My EnduraPro's pointing stick doesn't get in the way, so I can't say it's worse than nothing, and there were (in the past) some bugs in Unicomp's USB controllers EXCEPT for the one used on the EnduraPro, but otherwise, I really don't find the EnduraPro's pointing stick useful.

So, on my EnduraPro, it definitely feels like as it's been used, the plastics have worn, reducing friction, and therefore force.

Alps pointing sticks are used on most laptops with non-IBM pointing sticks. This means Dell, HP, Fujitsu, and some Toshiba machines (early Toshiba machines with pointing sticks used licensed IBM sticks), I believe.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑My EnduraPro's pointing stick doesn't get in the way, so I can't say it's worse than nothing, and there were (in the past) some bugs in Unicomp's USB controllers EXCEPT for the one used on the EnduraPro, but otherwise, I really don't find the EnduraPro's pointing stick useful.

Okay, yet another data point to mess up my calculation of pros and cons.

bhtooefr wrote: ↑Alps pointing sticks are used on most laptops with non-IBM pointing sticks. This means Dell, HP, Fujitsu, and some Toshiba machines (early Toshiba machines with pointing sticks used licensed IBM sticks), I believe.

Oh, I see. I thought there were external keyboards with these, as with Alps switches.

But while I'm on the topic, does anyone know about any other external keyboards with pointing sticks? The Tex Yoda has already been mentioned. Other than that I saw only one other that I can't remember the name of right now, which looked like a hobbyist's "cottage industry" project.

Muirium wrote: ↑http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/mini ... t7545.html

Yup, that's the one I was thinking of. Looks very similar to the Tex Yoda, except for the "mouse keys".

faceyourfaces wrote: ↑

cinnamonrollz wrote: ↑The actuation force from m to f while not very much lower makes a huge difference.(atleast going from bolt modded m to 4704 board)

My 4704 107-key board feels the most like the Model M out of all of the Model Fs I have tried; it's the stiffest (although not nearly as stiff as the Model M and it feels better). It's honestly my least favorite Model F that I've tried as far as key feel goes, I prefer the XT and the Bigfoot, but I use it daily because it's still a great keyboard and actually has a usable layout.

To me, model F's (and M's for that matter) can feel quite a bit different even when comparing two boards of the same model. Some make a higher pitched click, some take slightly more force, and if things are dirty, the keypress might not be as smooth With model F's, the condition of the foam inside probably affects the feel as well.

I don't think there's a whole lot of difference when it comes to the 107 versus an XT in curvature, height, and barrels/hammers/springs other than the barrel plate mounting footprint on the XT. Really just the length is different, but it should still be held together with he same force from the top and bottom.

I guess the better comparison would be if most can tell the difference in feel reliably between an XT and an AT model F.

Could just be the foam that needs to be replaced on your 107. I have seen quite a bit of variability in the consistency of the original foam on the ones I have. Will have to report back after more testing on the affect of foam replacement on my 107's has when I get around to it.

This info probably isn't so useful for the original poster since changing the foam takes a lot of time and is by no means a "ready to drive" solution unless you buy a board that already has been refurbished.

I guess the better comparison would be if most can tell the difference in feel reliably between an XT and an AT model F.

oh yes very much so. My XT "feels" quite sturdier and stiffer than my AT. But the whole XT case is superior in build quality. That in it´s self must play a role. The switch is the same with some small fluxuation in production. I´m sure IBM´s quality control was stringent in those days. The IBM 3104 Display Terminal I own comes close to the AT in "feel".

seebart wrote: ↑My XT "feels" quite sturdier and stiffer than my AT. But the whole XT case is superior in build quality. That in it´s self must play a large role.

That's absolutely true! I don't have a XT, but an AT, and i don't really like the AT case that much. Somehow it feels cheaper than Model M cases - or not as nice as these.

seebart wrote: ↑

I guess the better comparison would be if most can tell the difference in feel reliably between an XT and an AT model F.

oh yes very much so. My XT "feels" quite sturdier and stiffer than my AT. But the whole XT case is superior in build quality. That in it´s self must play a large role. The switch is the same with some small fluxuation in production. I´m sure IBM´s quality control was stringent in those days. The IBM 3104 Display Terminal I own comes close to the AT in "feel".

Hmm, I wouldn't think that the case would have all that much to do with the feel of individual keypresses. The AT has a plastic bottom whereas the XT is metal.

I know Fohat considers a first generation Model M case to replace the Model F 122 metal bottomed case to be an upgrade. Haven't tried that myself, but I don't think he would recommend it if it made the keyboard not "feel" as good. I get that a metal case is more solid overall, but that really shouldn't affect how each individual key press feels, should it? If you take both the AT and the XT out of their cases and put them side by side, does the XT still feel "better?"

Other than the case, what is really different about the internal construction on the AT versus XT? I've had both apart before, but not side by side, but never really saw any differences. The only real potential differences I can think of would be the foam used and if the internal plates have different thicknesses or curvatures. Pretty sure these would be exactly the same, but haven't measured them personally. My two are in storage at the moment, otherwise I would measure and report back myself.

I think the ideal test setup would consist of using an XT keyboard with replaced foam with 1/3 original hammers/springs/stems, 1/3 AT hammers/springs/stems, and 1/3 XT hammers/stems but springs replaced with model M springs. Doing that will tell you what really affects the feel. If for some reason there is no difference between the three, then it has to be the plates or barrels, final test would involve using the same hammer configuration, but using AT plates and barrels to see if the "poorer feel" is reproduced where it was not present with the XT plates and barrels with everything else being the same.

I suppose I will have to try this when I get the time!

what feels "better" or different is personal preference in my opinion. That the XT case is more solid in construction is well known, I do believe that this changes the typing experience in a limited way. Don´t ask me about specific data or even proof, I don´t have it. The difference is not huge but noticeable. If you reduce it to logic the case must make some difference then. Size and material vary to the AT. I don´t know about the internals right at this moment. How similair the plate is would be interesting. I´m just talking about Model F though. M is a different subject for me altogether. A test like you are suggesting would be very interesting! By the way I just changed my own post in that the different case plays a "large" role, like I wrote here it´s noticeable but not a huge difference.

orihalcon wrote: ↑
Fohat considers a first generation Model M case to replace the Model F 122 metal bottomed case to be an upgrade.

Not the entire case - just the top shell!

The metal bottom pan is absolutely crucial!

As long as the bottom pan is there, you don't need a top shell at all.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62 ... msg1469919

Ok, guess I didn't realize that it was just the top case that replacement was recommended for the F122's. Will definitely have to see what differences seem to make the model F's feel the best when I get around to doing some tests. Would have thought it would have been the larger hammer, but seeing as I've heard people say that they like the XT feel better than the AT (and those visually use the same hammers) there must be something else going on.

Other interesting thing to note is that the XTant has been described as feeling like something between a model F and a model M even though it uses an XT as the base including the case, springs/hammers, just with a modified barrel plate layout and capsense PCB. Only difference should be the barrel plate and capsense PCB thickness.

orihalcon wrote: ↑
Only difference should be the barrel plate and capsense PCB thickness.

After you have taken apart several of each type you start to get a feel for how they work as a unit.

I am convinced that the tight tension/compression union of multiple stiff plates is what gives the Model F its singing life.

The XTant has great possibilities and I plan to build one, but I fully expect to mod it to get the steel plates to resonate properly.

After using my 107-key for a bit longer, I have completely changed my mind and much prefer it over my XT, the tactility just feels better. I should mention, however, that my XT is quite old and worn while my 107-key is in good condition.