deskthority

According to the DT Wiki, "The Poker II does not permit normal key functionality to [be] reprogrammed." Nevertheless, I have seen posts indicating that a complete remapping, such as a Dvorak layout, can be done in a PN layer. Could someone please provide some examples? For example, if you wanted to remap the standard layout of the Poker II to the HHKB layout in a PN layer, how might this be done? And is it possible to change the position of the FN and/or PN keys? For example, I would like to remap Right Control as FN.

I expect the wiki means the base layer, not the PN layer.

Thoroughly programmable boards like Tipros let you program every layer entirely at will. Just like a custom. The Poker II does not. Although it's a reasonable half-solution.

Basically, every time you boot your computer, you have to press Fn+RShift to switch to Pn Mode; with a backlit Poker at least, a white LED comes on under the space bar.

In Pn mode, you can reshuffle all keys except Fn and Pn (which are immovable); you can bind macros to keys, but you can't bind arbitrary scancodes: keys on a Poker II can only be bound to one or more keys that already exist on the keyboard.

If the keyboard were to remember Pn mode state at power-on (just as it remembers backlit state) it would be closer to being "properly" programmable.

It's another one on the really long "so close, yet so far" list.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Basically, every time you boot your computer, you have to press Fn+RShift to switch to Pn Mode; with a backlit Poker at least, a white LED comes on under the space bar.

In Pn mode, you can reshuffle all keys except Fn and Pn (which are immovable); you can bind macros to keys, but you can't bind arbitrary scancodes: keys on a Poker II can only be bound to one or more keys that already exist on the keyboard.

If the keyboard were to remember Pn mode state at power-on (just as it remembers backlit state) it would be closer to being "properly" programmable.

It's another one on the really long "so close, yet so far" list.

Thanks for the helpful comments. Given that Vortex put DIP switches on the Poker II, it is too bad that they didn't anticipate people wanting to move Pn and Fn in ways other than remapping Left Win as Left Fn. I would like to swap Fn and Right Ctrl.

If you cannot move Pn and Fn, is it possible to remap other keys to Pn and/or Fn, so that you either end up with redundant Pn and Fn keys or dead keys where the original Pn and Fn keys reside?

(I sold my Poker II, and so I cannot simply test things things for myself at this time).

On a related note, does anyone have the latest news on the Poker 3 (Pok3r)? Will it be completely programmable?

Pn and Fn are completely fixed: they can't be moved or altered in any way. It's a nuisance, as to me I can't see much use in having two layer keys, and I keep getting Pn and Fn mixed up.

What's interesting though is that the macros can include system keystrokes: I've set Pn+L to Windows+L, and Pn+Fn+L sends Fn+V (backlight off) and then Windows+L, ready for leaving the office for the night. However, I still can't have number pad * on any key (used for Windows tree views to expand all nodes).

DIP switches are always a hack. Think of the bandwidth: there's only a handful of states they can convey. DIP switches are a solid sign that true programmability is absent.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Pn and Fn are completely fixed: they can't be moved or altered in any way. It's a nuisance, as to me I can't see much use in having two layer keys, and I keep getting Pn and Fn mixed up.

What's interesting though is that the macros can include system keystrokes: I've set Pn+L to Windows+L, and Pn+Fn+L sends Fn+V (backlight off) and then Windows+L, ready for leaving the office for the night. However, I still can't have number pad * on any key (used for Windows tree views to expand all nodes).

Interesting. Although it would be better to have the remapping inside the keyboard, I use Karabiner for the Mac extensively for remapping keyboards to my liking. For example, on typical modern TKL keyboards, I set them up so that the modifier on the far right is my Fn key, which I then assign my own functions. However, if the keyboard already had a hardwired Fn key, I end up losing those functions, but they are usually someone else's idea of media controls, and so I don't miss them.

Well, I'm waiting for the keyboard community to devise a fully programmable keyboard that is marketable.

Why?

webwit wrote: ↑Why?

Because it isn't available now, so he has to wait?

I don't get it. There are so many options for fully programmable keyboards.
For the price of a Poker II you can buy a fully programmable PCB a stock Poker case, keycaps are all over the place switches are not a problem.
I wouldn't spend the money on a Poker II board when I can get something better.

It's that the community's idea of fully programmable means something that requires computer code and a compiler, which has little market value. A number of people here are obsessed with the limitation that commercial keyboards aren't fully programmable, yet no-one seems to recognise that the community's idea of fully programmable isn't marketable: to sell something, it needs to be usable and accessible to a significant number of people! Recompiling firmware isn't something that will sell well.

What's frustrating with the Poker II is that it's pretty close to being adequate, and I don't know what the additional cost would be for it to have been much closer to fully adequate.

I can give you an example where you just need a GUI, plug in the board, click and map the keys macro's and stuff like that, click Save and that's it. You don't need compilers, code and stuff like that. A board and a GUI and you're good to go. It beats having to press some keys combo. Easier than that I don't think you can have.
The GUI looks like this : I hate having to deal with code, edit complicated files, flashing and crap like that.

@DanielT, Although I have compiled code in Mac/unix and linux, I am all for convenience when it is available, and NerDy GUI looks interesting. Looks like it can work with linux as well as Windows.

I'm a UNIX engineer, been that for the last 12 years, compiled a lot and modified code and that's why I'm happy when I don't have to do that
The NerDy GUI works on Windows only, I have a VM running windows just for such things. But what I liked about it it so much it was the fact that it made my life easy, it was like I bought an iThingy connected it to iTunes and that was it.
It might look like I'm advertising for GON, but after experimenting with TMK and ps2avr and dip switches when I got my first NerD board I had the impression that I'm doing something wrong, programming my layout can't be that easy, just SAVE?! no key combo, no avr dude, no spreadsheet with codes, no praying to gods for the flashing to work... So I'm sold to these boards.

Yup. GUIs are the way to do this. Tipro and Access-IS are examples of commercial manufacturers who have fully programmable keyboards and GUIs to edit them. Unfortunately, like the one you linked, these apps are all Windows only which is a pain for some of us. (And even worse, they're mostly 32 bit Windows XP only, in my experience; so it's harder than just popping over a friend's place, unless they're as out of date as the small business sector these boards are aimed at!)

Of course, Xwhatsit's GUI is the gold standard for this stuff, and runs on everything.



I'd like something along these lines for every custom controller!

Yep, we need to step in the 21'st century I like my command line, coding and scripting, but for keyboards a GUI is the way to go.
For the windows part a virtual machine solves a lot of problems, didn't test for PS2 but for USB works like a charm. Virtualbox is perfect and works also on MAC (x86 and AMD)

Yeah, but a lot of bother for something so simple! And PS/2 Tipros really do require native PS/2 ports, so no go on any Mac.

@Mu: Although I prefer native OS X apps, it is not too bad to launch a VM, and in a VM, you can still run XP if necessary. It will run adequately for routine purposes in VirtualBox, which is free. When I need good graphics performance, I use Parallels, which is better than VMware.

@DanielT: Does NerDy GUI only work with GON keyboard kits? Unless there is another round for the Infinity 60 keyboard soon, I am looking for DIY kits for which I could use a HHKB layout and Matias switches.

@Muirium:Yep, that is true At home I have only Linux but I also have iPhone iPad and iPod so this is the only way to go for me. Onve setup the VM is there.
The good thing is that new projects are emerging and they bring a GUI, and some even Linux/MAC compatibility and that is great.
@Hypersphere: it works only with GON's boards which I highly recommend, on my NerD60 I have HHKB layout and fully working multimedia keys on Fn layer on Linux and Windows. I have now a second one the way, that's how much I like them, compatible with Poker cases, I will use ultra light vintage blacks. Hope to get close to the HHKB feeling. And the price is decent for a high quality PCB.

My brother lives inside a VM at work (some Linux flavour for a change) which he runs on his MacBook Pro with VirtualBox. I hear his grumbles about the awkwardness frequently enough to put me off VMs myself. I love my platform native creature comforts (the same clipboard history across all apps, ditto scripting, keyboard shortcuts and menu design). A VM is a big honking blob on your hard drive and a weird Alice Through the Looking Glass experience for me, for something so very very simple.

Screw those guys. Make native clients or a crossplatform toolkit already! (So long as it's not Flash. Gah!)

I'm for crossplatform, and YES no flash or java, at work I have to deal so much with java interfaces and all that crap that I have enough of it.
Working with a VM can be crappy sometimes, but it's not so bad in the end. Navive support is better I admit that.

DanielT wrote: ↑ <snip>
@Hypersphere: it works only with GON's boards which I highly recommend, on my NerD60 I have HHKB layout and fully working multimedia keys on Fn layer on Linux and Windows. I have now a second one the way, that's how much I like them, compatible with Poker cases, I will use ultra light vintage blacks. Hope to get close to the HHKB feeling. And the price is decent for a high quality PCB.

Are the GON PCBs only for Cherry mx, or might they also be made to work with Matias switches?

How do you source your ultra light vintage blacks? Do you use custom springs?

Many people have recommended "Ergo Clears" to me, which use the custom 62g springs. As it was explained to me, the "62g" of these custom springs does not refer to the actuation force, but to the bottoming-out force, so they really are significantly lighter than the stock springs in mx Clears.

GON PCB's are MX only, for now, if there is demand GON said that he could develop also an ALPS compatible pcb.

I'm going to build my ultra light vintage blacks with 50g gold plated springs. In fact I have more types of springs to test, 50g Originative, 55g GON, 50 and 55g gold plated SPRiT. Some say that gold plated springs are a little stiffer, I will test this myself when I will get all of them.
A lot of people praise the clears, I don't like them, I find them uncomfortable, I like linear switches as light as possible.
I guess is a matter of typing style, hand size and personal taste. Testing is the best way. SPRiT has opened R3 for springs so it's a good source to buy some different types of springs. Take a PCB mounted board (some cheap Cherry, easy to experiment ), take different types of switches and experiment until you find your perfect switch. Try some lube, stickers.
I made a lot of tests with a Poker X amd now I know what I like, linear and light, don't are for lube and stickers don't bring nothing extra, at least for me.
Best linear switches are vintage blacks, I studied them a lot, compared with new and old ones, there are a lot of small details that make the vintage ones so smooth and nice to type on. If I have the time I will make a review with my findings.

DanielT wrote: ↑GON PCB's are MX only, for now, if there is demand GON said that he could develop also an ALPS compatible pcb.

I'm going to build my ultra light vintage blacks with 50g gold plated springs. In fact I have more types of springs to test, 50g Originative, 55g GON, 50 and 55g gold plated SPRiT. Some say that gold plated springs are a little stiffer, I will test this myself when I will get all of them.
A lot of people praise the clears, I don't like them, I find them uncomfortable, I like linear switches as light as possible.
I guess is a matter of typing style, hand size and personal taste. Testing is the best way. SPRiT has opened R3 for springs so it's a good source to buy some different types of springs. Take a PCB mounted board (some cheap Cherry, easy to experiment ), take different types of switches and experiment until you find your perfect switch. Try some lube, stickers.
I made a lot of tests with a Poker X amd now I know what I like, linear and light, don't are for lube and stickers don't bring nothing extra, at least for me.
Best linear switches are vintage blacks, I studied them a lot, compared with new and old ones, there are a lot of small details that make the vintage ones so smooth and nice to type on. If I have the time I will make a review with my findings.

Thanks for these really insightful and interesting comments.

After making a study of Cherry mx and trying most of them (red, black; brown, clear; blue, green), I have found that I don't like any of them, at least as found in stock keyboards. When I have offered comments on GH that all Cherry mx switches are inherently linear, and that the purest form of Cherry mx switches are red and black, I tend to get flamed.

So, if you like light linear switches, why black rather than red? Is it that vintage blacks offer other characteristics, as you have mentioned? Do the Wyse terminal keyboards have vintage blacks? If so, I think I see what you mean. Of all the Cherry mx I have tried, I thought my Wyse terminal keyboards had the best feel to them, although perhaps a tad heavy for sustained use. I have not yet done USB conversions on those boards, so I have not properly tested them under actual typing conditions. One thing I noticed about the Wyse keyboards is that the switch action was smooth, whereas contemporary keyboards with mx reds felt scratchy.

but command line apps are much simpler to make cross platform could use an ncurses style interface that's controlled with another keyboard

Wyse boards have vintage blacks, vintage blaks are smooth, the mould used, the material is nothing like the one used in the new switches. I have studied those things a lot and all makes sense.
I used to like MX Reds but after I've put some MX Red springs in old black switches I knew what I want.
So for me the ultimate and pure switch is the MX Black ( vintage is the best) and with that you can make all kind of variations just by swapping springs.
If you have more wyse boards you can harvest the switches and build your own custom board.

andrewjoy wrote: ↑but command line apps are much simpler to make cross platform could use an ncurses style interface that's controlled with another keyboard

ps2avr has command line, is crossplatform but you need to have a list with the codes for each key. I like that one too because it works in VIM
It's really complicated to make it work and have the same feeling like in a "normal" GUI, if a developer makes something like that I'm the first to test it

uhhh vim, its a good text editor but i don't know why it cannot just use normal key bindings i stick to nano

So, there's one other person in the world who uses Nano … Heh.

Nano's keybindings are stupid, but at least it tells me what I'm supposed to press and when, which is useful when I don't use it often enough to remember, and when it differs from absolutely every other program on the planet. OK, there's still a load of stuff in Nano I can't remember or get mixed up with (that's not on the cheat sheet at the bottom of the screen), but it's not the headache that is trying to use vim on an occasional basis, which behaves like a thing possessed.