Group Build prototyping phase

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 15:18

I can't wait. That looks like a killer case! Panel mounted USB port all the way. If only USB Class C was on the market and able to be implemented...

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 15:20

In the meantime, mini or micro will do.

So, Matteo, when you say you can make the design work for anything: do you mean we can make these to order and still be cheap, or is it still better to do a batch of identical cases?

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 15:37

well. the tray itself should work for almost any design. With 3-4 tray sizes you should cover basically any sub-TKL keyboard.

what changes is the plate (and of course the PCB, if any).

My plan is to finally produce my beloved 16x5 in batch with 3 variants: ISO, ANSI, X (my personal favorite, with 2x1u instead of 2u backspace). Any additional layout can be added and will benefit of a discounted price since we already have the machines started. Of course the more per design the cheaper.

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 15:52

Are we talking strictly MX or is there scope for Alps getting in on the action?

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 16:06

with ALPS it's the same old problem: stabilizers.

we could design a plate around an existing keyboard that will be later raped of keycaps and stabilizers, but... is there really interest? and which keyboard?

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 16:27

Which 16x5 layout were you planning on specifically? There were so many awesome layouts posted here, I would almost be fine with any of them. And with alps, just for the sake of saying it, would a stabless design like Bianca work for an Alps board?

EDIT: Keycaps. Getting the required Bianca caps in MX is a challenge in itself, good luck getting them in Alps mount...

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 16:33

Fair enough. I'm still thinking of chopping an AEK II to TKL, which sidesteps all that, and gives me a case to work with. But nice not to hear a warning about the PCB or plate. So…

How about MX cap compatible switches like Mitsumi miniature and Cherry M84? Neither is PCB compatible with MX, and M84 doesn't take a plate at all. But they're both more promising than Alps, just for stabs alone!

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 16:43

pyrelink wrote: ↑Which 16x5 layout were you planning on specifically?

This on is the "X"

then an ISO and an ANSI version of this

pyrelink wrote: ↑And with alps, just for the sake of saying it, would a stabless design like Bianca work for an Alps board?

doable-ish. Bianca has 1.75u spacebars, and 1.75u keycaps are rare. We could do with 1.5u instead, but still you need quite some 1.5u keycaps, you probably need to scavenge a couple of keyboards.

Muirium wrote: ↑How about MX cap compatible switches like Mitsumi miniature and Cherry M84? Neither is PCB compatible with MX, and M84 doesn't take a plate at all. But they're both more promising than Alps, just for stabs alone!

I would actually love to have a futaba keyboard, given enough time and money anything is possible

If we provide the full kit (case/plate/switches/stabilizers) that would totally feasible.

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 16:47

I agree with a Futaba keyboard. That would be awesome, albeit very niche.

I really like this layout, so you can count me in. I know you only have a preliminary mockup, but might I ask how the plate mounts in the case?

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 17:01

2, 2.25 and 2.75u aren't awful without stabs, by the way. Think I've got a 2.25u space bar on my no stabs Monterey board (with Mrinterface MX adapters) and I forget it's not stabilised every time I type on that one. There's not a hard limit at 2 units. Rather, that's the first size that's large enough to fit stabs under.

Nuum · 27 Jan 2015, 17:08

Wrong! Here's a stabilized 1.75u Caps Lock:

: DSCN3191 Klein.jpg (895.81 KiB) Viewed 3984 times

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 17:13

pyrelink wrote: ↑I really like this layout, so you can count me in. I know you only have a preliminary mockup, but might I ask how the plate mounts in the case?

usually Costar, at least for the first version that will probably be plate mounted. I'd like to offer a full kit, so the stabilizers would be included.

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 17:16

Very fancy, Nuum! How does it feel without the stabiliser clipped into the cap? Somehow the rest of us put up with 1.75u just fine!

It's actually a mighty 2.75u Shift key that I'm using, stab-free, on my little Monterey:

Not a single stab in place on that whole keyboard! The vertical Return key (which is what Daniel calls a semi Big Ass Enter as I recall) is more noticeable to me as I hit it on the low side, as if it's a little ANSI, like I do ISO Return keys in general.

So long as you design a stab-free layout with your own typing preferences in mind, I'm sure it can work just excellently. The key is to put the centre of the caps, and therefore the switches, just where your fingers expect. It's worth it for itty-bitty space bars!

Nuum · 27 Jan 2015, 17:23

It doesn't feel different without the stabilizer in place, at least not different from the 1.5u keys. I don't know why they put a stabilizer there, especially on such a seldom used key. Next: Find a keyboard with a stabilized 1.5u keycap.

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 17:31

Much to my frustration, a 2.75u key that does bother me with its wobble is the right Shift on my NMB here right now. The key is stabilised, but with a dinky little stab that sits too close to the middle to do much good. Space invaders have many things going for them, but they're not as solid as MX or Montereys at lateral stability. So the result is a right Shift key that's wobbly unless you hit it in the central 50%. Unfortunately, I habitually hit the left of it…

Annoying, because otherwise this board's got a profound slick-solidness to it. Hard to describe, but easy to feel. They managed to stabilise the ISO Return just fine. (But the vertical caps on the numpad are definitely wobbly. I'm so unused to numpads that I never touch them habitually!)

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 17:33

matt3o wrote: ↑
pyrelink wrote: ↑I really like this layout, so you can count me in. I know you only have a preliminary mockup, but might I ask how the plate mounts in the case?
usually Costar, at least for the first version that will probably be plate mounted. I'd like to offer a full kit, so the stabilizers would be included.

Thats good, I like costar.

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 17:37

Hint: Matteo likes Costar too.

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/ozone ... ay#p203435

I've got Cherry plate mount stabs waiting to be used. Would it be a stretch to include those?

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 17:51

Muirium wrote: ↑I've got Cherry plate mount stabs waiting to be used. Would it be a stretch to include those?

here's the catch: in my humble opinion the unified cherry+costar cut-out doesn't 100% work with costar. The specs for the costar stabs that runs across the forums these days is --to my experience-- wrong. You always need to file the stabilizer a bit and the plate another bit to make it work.

For this keyboard I designed a costar cutout that should work out of the box, no post-processing needed. This new design does not work with cherry, though.

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 17:57

The right decision, frankly, even though I'm the guy who prefers Cherry. Their plate mount stabs aren't exactly common, after all.

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 18:04

I am a fan of Cherry, for their easier design (no inserts), as I have ruined valuable Keycaps with the costar inserts getting stuck and even breaking off in the keycap, I have lost inserts, and broke inserts. However at the end of the day, even a clipped Cherry stab doesn't come close to the feeling of the Costar. I don't hate Cherry by any means, I just like Costar a bit better.

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 18:13

Speaking of the Victorian design you have bordering the case, could you elaborate more on how that would work? Could everyone have a separate design? Or does it need to be the same? Would it actually be like cut out of the steel, or just like laser engraved? Any chance you have some dimensions or a example size image or vector for the pattern? The first thing I thought of when you mentioned it was hieroglyphs

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 18:37

Real Victorian design would have lion legs:

Fortunately, I'm more Bauhaus than country house… but the idea of custom engravings is appealing indeed.

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 19:47

pyrelink wrote: ↑Speaking of the Victorian design you have bordering the case, could you elaborate more on how that would work? Could everyone have a separate design? Or does it need to be the same? Would it actually be like cut out of the steel, or just like laser engraved? Any chance you have some dimensions or a example size image or vector for the pattern? The first thing I thought of when you mentioned it was hieroglyphs

the design is cut out (not engraved). For the sake of simplicity would be nice to find 2-3 designs and use those. I have to work on CAD not SVG and making those freehand drawings is not easy at all (SVG to DWG conversion is less than optimal, at least with the tools I have). The size is approx 300x20mm

Another small details. The plate rests over 8 standoffs, between the plate and the standoff you have a tiny silicone o-ring (to reduce vibration).

Muirium · 27 Jan 2015, 19:55

Nice detail, that. Some people like the metallic sound (including me) but an option to damp it is always smart.

What have you got in mind for the controller and internal wiring: depends on the PCB? And a fixed USB mini or micro panel socket?

A good "kit" keyboard would include the wire for joining the socket to the Teensy (or whatever else), as those joins are actually quite tricky. Especially if you have to hack apart existing cables.

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 20:06

Incognito wrote: ↑ Hmmm ... very steampunk-ish ... . I would have thought that making the case angular would eliminate the need for 'feet' thus simplifying things?

yes, I thought about it, but you can't change the slope if the case is "angular". I don't know if it is better to leave the slope variable with "pie feet" or have a fixed angle and spare a few bucks.

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 20:13

Muirium wrote: ↑What have you got in mind for the controller and internal wiring: depends on the PCB? And a fixed USB mini or micro panel socket?

A good "kit" keyboard would include the wire for joining the socket to the Teensy (or whatever else), as those joins are actually quite tricky. Especially if you have to hack apart existing cables.

I was in contact with massdrop, but it is taking forever... so my idea would be a version 1 ready for hand-wiring, with even wires already cut and pealed at the right size. The controller would be a teensy of course.

In a month or so I should be able to have a thing like that started. Version 2 would be with PCB, I have to learn kicad and make some prototypes... so it might take some time.

pyrelink · 27 Jan 2015, 20:15

I like a good bit of angle myself. I use my HHKB with the feet out, my 107 with the long bar foot, and with Muirium's 56 key wireless, the intent is to build angle into the case. However there are still a lot of people who enjoy typing on completely flat keyboards, and the use of feet, does compensate enough for those of us who like an angle in our keyboards. No matter how much I might like it to be angled, depending on how many people want in on this, I might just say leave it as is.

matt3o wrote: ↑Another small details. The plate rests over 8 standoffs, between the plate and the standoff you have a tiny silicone o-ring (to reduce vibration).

When I asked how would the plate mount in the case, this is actually what I was asking

I love the idea of the silicone O-Ring.

I will probably hold off on working on any special designs in this case. I imagine what I was thinking is much more akin to dyesubbing then being cut out of steel. This is all quite exciting. I really like all of this (and it being cheap is icing on the cake).

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 20:19

thanks

but well... by cheap... I mean "as cheap as a custom keyboard could be"

Madhias · 27 Jan 2015, 20:36

Oh great, i love to see some news here!

I would love an angled case, and not to have to use feet! But i know, it is not easy, since you have then lots of angled areas. I have some ideas regarding a custom Beamspring case, but having an angled case is always a problem. Putting feet down there simplifies everything. That's the reason why i love Filcos cases that much - compared to Duckys for example, because of the simple case design.

matt3o · 27 Jan 2015, 23:52

what would be the ideal angle? is there a "standard"?