deskthority

I really enjoyed this little board! You'll have to bring it back over sometime when I get my IIgs all set up.

Got a close-up of that caps lock switch? I'm intrigued to see how it compares to the one in the Keyboard II.

Also, how do you rate the clicky switches compared to the original tactile switches? I've got a keyboard with tactile SMK switches — they have binding problems with wider keycaps (1.5 unit ctrl for example) but as a tactile switch they're very good -- it's one of the most tactile switches I've ever used. Mine need a spot of lube, but otherwise they're really decent. Just wish you could get a Windows key keyboard with those switches.

I'm curious to know whether you share my view.

Also, what's interesting is that the tactile ones have a click leaf, but the slider is chamfered so that the leaf slides past without clicking. While the tactile switch's click leaf is not the same shape as the clicky switch's click leaf, it will click if you replace the tactile slider with a clicky slider. It's another reason why I don't class these as Alps clones -- SMK didn't even copy Alps's silly approach to tactility, and to me the switch is much better for it.

Daniel: the keycaps that came with the Taiwan version of the Apple IIGS keyboard cause the switches to stick, because the keycap mounts are too fat, which bulges out the sliders, and there’s not much space between the slider and the switch housing. If any other standard Alps keycaps are used instead with these switches, they’re very nice tactile switches; to my fingers, they’re more tactile than orange Alps, and less tactile than Matias quiet switches. (But I still prefer the clicky ones, if noise isn’t a problem.)

For everyone who can find two IIGS keyboards, one of each type: I recommend trading the keycaps between the two, because this avoids the sticking problem on the SMK switches.

I swapped the keycaps and then put blue Alps switches in one, and blue SMK switches in the other, and both are now very nice to type on. [Although still not perfect, since the height of the back-row keycaps causes the sliders to get a bit more torque than other caps would produce, and this sometimes makes the key a bit less smooth going down.. not as serious a problem as the binding with the original doubleshot caps on the SMK switches, but still (very mildly) annoying.]

I was wondering - could the SMK white switches on A9M0330 be replaced with Matias?

woody wrote:I was wondering - could the SMK white switches on A9M0330 be replaced with Matias?

No. SMK and Alps have different pinout and plate.

jacobolus wrote:Daniel: the keycaps that came with the Taiwan version of the Apple IIGS keyboard cause the switches to stick, because the keycap mounts are too fat, which bulges out the sliders, and there’s not much space between the slider and the switch housing.

Are they really all like that, or did you just get one or two from a bad batch?

Findecanor wrote:No. SMK and Alps have different pinout and plate.

Thanks, that saves me the trouble.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:

jacobolus wrote:Daniel: the keycaps that came with the Taiwan version of the Apple IIGS keyboard cause the switches to stick, because the keycap mounts are too fat, which bulges out the sliders, and there’s not much space between the slider and the switch housing.

Are they really all like that, or did you just get one or two from a bad batch?

They’re really all like that. The thick double-shot ABS caps from the Taiwan version have very thick mount stems on them, and SMK Alps-mount switches, in general, have tight tolerances between the slider and the switch housing. As a result, when you use this particular combination of keycaps and switches, you get a noticeable proportion of switches that suffer from what you call “binding” (and even on switches that don’t obviously stick, the feel is substantially affected, for the worse, as you can easily tell by comparing between the same switch with a different keycap).

Use any other keycaps with the switches, and they work great. Likewise, use the same keycaps on regular Alps switches, or on Alps-mount Omrons, etc., and they work great. It’s kind of mind-boggling to me that they let this problem get through in production, but hey, it is what it is.

Again, I recommend people swap the keycaps from a Taiwan IIGS keyboard and a Japan IIGS keyboard, because the Alps caps greatly improve the SMK switches, and the Taiwan (SMK? Some random OEM?) caps work just fine on the Alps switches.

Folks wondering about plate-compatibility of SMK switches.. they use the same size plate holes as Cherry MX, so in theory they should be plate-compatible with any Cherry MX keyboard. If you have caps which use MX-like cross mounts for stabilizer inserts (for instance, Signature Plastics make Alps keycaps like this), you could have a Cherry MX keyboard, and use SMK switches on it, with direct wiring.

jacobolus wrote:It’s kind of mind-boggling to me that they let this problem get through in production, but hey, it is what it is.

Apple made terrible keyboards for some Apple II computers, so ergonomy wasn't a priority at all.

jacobolus wrote:It’s kind of mind-boggling to me that they let this problem get through in production, but hey, it is what it is.

woody wrote:Apple made terrible keyboards for some Apple II computers, so ergonomy wasn't a priority at all.

I think this is more a QA problem from the OEM than an Apple problem. But someone at Apple should have been paying attention too.

No, they're terrible at design level, not that units slipped QA more than expected.
How could these prototypes get the "go" is beyond me.

Having not personally experienced the issue, I'm not sure how severe it is. As I understand it, "binding" refers to keys becoming extremely stiff or unable to be pressed at all — this occurs when the key is pressed "off-axis", i.e. with your finger not on the centre of the keycap.

I find it somewhat strange that these keyboards could have been made for several years, with this problem wholly uncorrected for that time. What are we talking about, tens of thousands of units over six years? (Divide by two, if we assume half were Alps.) I don't even know how much of an increase in dimensions is involved here.

Very little is known about SMK second generation switches. Why are they unbranded? Indications seem to suggest that the "Monterey" (Alps mount) switches were the first version made, and SMK may have designed them for Apple. It also seems as though the white tactile version was also the first version, before the pale blue clicky version. (We don't have enough data on them yet; SMK linear switches appear to have disappeared around 1984, and the first sign of the second generation was the Apple IIGS keyboard in 1986, with the blue clicky switches appearing at least a couple of years later, around 1988–1989 I'm guessing. The SMK second-generation platform (inverse cross mount) goes back to 1987 according to the dates moulded into the case, which is the earliest date confirmed for non-Alps mount.)

Apple probably designed the keycaps in terms of aesthetics, but whose fault was it that SMK manufactured, or sourced, keycaps that were the wrong size mount for their own switches? Did Apple measure the Alps keycap mount and then instruct SMK to source their own switches and their own keycaps that for some reason had to share the same keycap mount as Alps switches, and then proceeded to get the dimensions wrong?

Alps we think made their own keycaps; I don't know where SMK keycaps came from.

(In the case of Monterey, they seemed to mix and match the keycaps and switches of whatever keyboard was later rebadged as the MiniTouch, unless the MiniTouch orders were assembled from leftover PCBs, cases, switches and keycaps from the original 1990s keyboard it was based on.)

There are also issues reported in the Far East of production quality being kept high initially to ensure quality acceptance, and then dropped from then on to save money. (SMK are Japanese, but the SMK version of this keyboard was "made" in Taiwan.) Maybe SMK and Apple reviewed the special good batch.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Having not personally experienced the issue, I'm not sure how severe it is. As I understand it, "binding" refers to keys becoming extremely stiff or unable to be pressed at all — this occurs when the key is pressed "off-axis", i.e. with your finger not on the centre of the keycap.

Well, in this case, it doesn’t matter what direction you press. The too-fat keycap stem bulges the slider plastic outward, causing it to get stuck on the plastic housing as the slider goes up and down. At best, this makes the cap feel a bit sluggish, but occasionally it causes some of the keys to stick more severely.

Apple probably designed the keycaps in terms of aesthetics, but whose fault was it that SMK manufactured, or sourced, keycaps that were the wrong size mount for their own switches? Did Apple measure the Alps keycap mount and then instruct SMK to source their own switches and their own keycaps that for some reason had to share the same keycap mount as Alps switches, and then proceeded to get the dimensions wrong?

Hard to say. My speculation is that Apple first sourced their IIGS keyboards from Alps, but then asked some other OEM (SMK?) to make a duplicate keyboard [actually, they’d only need the PCB + plate + switches; the outer case is nearly identical in the two variants]. I’m guessing due to some kind of supply constraint.

The keycap styling comes from the style of the earlier Apple IIc, which first used Apple’s switches, and then switched to Alps switches later, right?

Though actually, does anyone know what the range of production dates are on the SMK-switch IIGS keyboards?

There are also issues reported in the Far East of production quality being kept high initially to ensure quality acceptance, and then dropped from then on to save money. (SMK are Japanese, but the SMK version of this keyboard was "made" in Taiwan.) Maybe SMK and Apple reviewed the special good batch.

I think this is an inherent problem based on the shapes involved, not any process degradation.

jacobolus wrote:The keycap styling comes from the style of the earlier Apple IIc, which first used Apple’s switches, and then switched to Alps switches later, right?

Apple IIc keyboard has flat profile, unlike the A9M0330. I just cleaned one these days, early model - the only stabilizer was on the space bar. Keycaps were dye-sublimated.

It was not until the later IIc models, possibly the second mainboard revision, where Apple finally put the taxi-yellow Alps and the keyboard was finally nice.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Got a close-up of that caps lock switch? I'm intrigued to see how it compares to the one in the Keyboard II.

Also, how do you rate the clicky switches compared to the original tactile switches? I've got a keyboard with tactile SMK switches — they have binding problems with wider keycaps (1.5 unit ctrl for example) but as a tactile switch they're very good -- it's one of the most tactile switches I've ever used. Mine need a spot of lube, but otherwise they're really decent. Just wish you could get a Windows key keyboard with those switches.

I'm curious to know whether you share my view.

Also, what's interesting is that the tactile ones have a click leaf, but the slider is chamfered so that the leaf slides past without clicking. While the tactile switch's click leaf is not the same shape as the clicky switch's click leaf, it will click if you replace the tactile slider with a clicky slider. It's another reason why I don't class these as Alps clones -- SMK didn't even copy Alps's silly approach to tactility, and to me the switch is much better for it.

Hey, I have been meaning to comment on this and I finally got around to it. The clicky switches compare well to the original tactile switches, and I prefer the clicky version on this board. Because I type mostly with buckling spring, I find the SMK switches rather light. The heavier force required for buckling spring makes any tactile switch seem to light for me, and the click in any switch helps me with the typing experience.

I did not find the SMK tactile switches to have binding problems. On this keyboard, the 1.75 keys have stabilizer wires, so I am sure that helps to prevent binding. But the largest keys to not have stabilizers, the Tab and Delete, do not bind.

Overall, though, I think that I prefer the typing experience of a Siig Minitouch with these switches. Because I am spoiled with some great buckling spring options, I fear that it may not have a place in my rotation.

Another random observation — compare the stabiliser inserts of the IIGS keyboard, with those of confirmed SMK products:

[wiki]Tulip SMK series[/wiki]
Apple Keyboard II

The IIGS keyboard has completely different inserts. Got to love consistency.

When you say stabilizer inserts do you mean the ones that go into the keycaps or the ones that go into the plate? Anyway, it’s not really odd or inconsistent – the two types of IIGS keyboards (Alps and SMK) both use the same type of stabilizers and the same general type of keycap, with Alps mount and standard Alps stabilizers. (The stabilizer wires are bent to a slightly different height, but that’s pretty inconsequential.)

Hardly surprising given that the keyboards are close to identical in everything but the switches.

Yes, "insert" means the one inside the keycap. I don't know what the ones inside the PCB/plate are called.

Why should they be remotely similar under the surface? My Alps and NBM AppleDesign keyboards aren't even the same shape, let alone having totally incompatible keycaps.

We've already established that the two IIGS models don't have the same keycaps. Alps probably made their own; SMK keycaps vary sufficiently to suggest that they bought them in from other suppliers.

One of my examples above was the Apple Keyboard II, for which the SMK and Mitsumi versions have different stabilisers. The SMK version has the little blue inserts, while Mitsumi moulded the wire clips directly into the keycap. Both, interestingly, have the open side of the wire at the keyboard, instead of at the keycap.

That's an interesting thought, because clipping the wire to the keycap should make keycap placement and removal easier. It's easier to insert the wire ends into the unnamed doobreys than it is to get them into inserts while attaching the keycap.

The keycaps aren’t the same (one is dye-sub PBT produced by Alps, the other is double-shot and produced by someone else) but they are interchangeable. The little stabilizer inserts do differ in height just slightly (and thus require stabilizer wires bent to slightly different heights). But they’re both of the general Alps type.

Keys with standard Alps-style stabilizers are very easy to remove and replace, in my opinion. Easier than Cherry- or Costar-style stabilizers.

It really wouldn’t make sense in my opinion for anyone to design keycaps with Alps-style mounts for the keycaps and those other SMK mounts for the stabilizer inserts... the keycaps wouldn’t be reusable in any other project, or compatible with anything else.

All the Alps keycaps I’ve seen either have Alps-style stabilizer insert mounts (little squarish rectangle) or an MX-style stabilizer insert mount, for use with costar-type stabilizers. Or in one case both types on a single “bigass enter” key.

jacobolus wrote: ↑It really wouldn’t make sense in my opinion for anyone to design keycaps with Alps-style mounts for the keycaps and those other SMK mounts for the stabilizer inserts...

I am not sure that anyone understands the sense or logic that comes into play with Far East manufacturing practices. You could fill a phonebook with all the things that don't make any sense.

For that matter, what were Apple thinking when they decided to patent their own (apparently terrible) switch? I'm still confused about the batch found in a non-Apple product where the Apple logo got removed from the mould, and a wobbly logo scratched into its place, within Apple's patent lifetime — legit, or not?

Hey prdlm2009, do you have these photos still? Wherever you originally hosted them has apparently gone away.

Edit: The Internet Archive did crawl the page once. Yay.
http://web.archive.org/web/201407041149 ... t6375.html

Maybe one day you'll find a wiki image-uploading minion to prevent this sort of problem.

About two months ago I began a quest to revive my old IIGS (not switched on in 20 years). This became more complicated and costly than I anticipated. Suffice to say some parts had to be replaced but I now have everything working more or less the way I want. I searched high and low for my original IIGS keyboard before finally remembering that I had "donated" it to another needy GS user whose keyboard had malfunctioned back around 1996.
So as a stop-gap measure, I purchased an Apple Keyboard II on ebay, which in form and appearance is probably the closest thing to the IIGS original. The Keyboard II is in excellent condition, apart from the caps lock which is a little temperamental, only latching when it wants and having to be struck at a certain angle. Keys are very comfortable and responsive to type on. However, I didn't really like the placement of the ESC key next to the spacebar, and also for aesthetic reasons, I decided I had to have an authentic IIGS keyboard. Shortly afterwards I scored a Canadian French IIGS keyboard on ebay. Some keycaps have extra French characters (and also a British pound next to the hash), yet surprisingly the layout is standard QWERTY, identical to the English-language variant. Those French keycaps do lend an exotic flair and I don't mind them at all! The ebay description said that the keyboard "needed a good clean". Indeed, it was very dirty when it finally arrived yesterday. I gave it a thorough clean (only on the outside) and you can see some photos below. It is a Japanese-made keyboard with part number C658-4081.

All the keys are working perfectly except for the L-shaped "Return" key which is a bit stiff when struck on the left end and top. I don't know if this is "normal" behaviour for this keyboard? I vaguely recall that my original IIGS keyboard had a similar issue (it came with my Woz edition and was therefore early vintage, however I haven't a clue as to the model of it).
Could this problem with the Return key be easily fixed by removing the keycap and spraying some contact cleaner? And what actually is the best and safest way to remove this L-shaped keycap? I don't want to damage anything and any advice from the experts will be appreciated.

cvxmelody wrote: ↑All the keys are working perfectly except for the L-shaped "Return" key which is a bit stiff when struck on the left end and top. I don't know if this is "normal" behaviour for this keyboard? I vaguely recall that my original IIGS keyboard had a similar issue [...] Could this problem with the Return key be easily fixed by removing the keycap and spraying some contact cleaner? And what actually is the best and safest way to remove this L-shaped keycap? I don't want to damage anything and any advice from the experts will be appreciated.

The way this enter key is stabilized is via a combination of wire stabilizer and little plastic peg that fits into a little plastic tube sleeve.

When there’s dirt/grit stuck in the tube, or when the plastic of the peg/tube get scratched up, then they sometimes don’t smoothly glide across each-other.

The way to fix it is to take the keycap off and clean it, and get an alcohol-soaked q-tip, and swab all the gunk out of the little plastic tube. For best results, add some lubricant to the peg/tube. If they were used extensively while dirty and the plastic was severely scratched up and won’t move smoothly even when lubed, then you can try to find replacement pieces, there are similar ones used on many old Alps keyboards e.g. for stabilizing spacebars.

The same thing happens to a lesser extent with the internals of the switches. There’s a quite noticeable difference between brand new Alps switches (e.g. on a keyboard that was kept in a box on a shelf for 30 years) vs. switches that were stored unboxed in a dirty environment and wound up filled with dust. In the worst cases, switches can become almost unusably stiff. Unfortunately cleaning all the switch internals is a bit of a pain in the butt.

To safely remove the enter keycap, first take the case apart, and then remove the plastic barrier between the keyboard sections (you can push inward from the front/back on the plastic tabs that hold it in place). Remove all the keycaps surrounding the enter key (delete, apostrophe, right bracket, shift), and then the enter key should be easy to also take off.

To remove keycaps on these boards, my recommended tool is a pair of butter knives.

Thanks for this excellent and very comprehensive tutorial! I aim to fix this eventually when I'm feeling courageous. I can only imagine how much gunk has accumulated under the keycaps. Will keep an eye out for a good set of butter knives in the meantime (though the real hurdle is "buttery" fingers...)

Well, any stiff flat piece of metal works. If you don’t care about potentially scratching your keycaps, you can use a key, or a fork, or whatever.

You can also use a wire puller, e.g. made from bent paperclips, but I find them not quite as effective for certain Alps keycaps, which is why I recommend butterknives.