[Interest Check] Silencing Rings for Topre RF or HHKB

Hypersphere · 05 Oct 2015, 01:17

Regarding the clicking sound on some keys in the silenced Novatouch that we have provisionally attributed to the switch housings, has anyone noticed a clicking sound in other Topre-switch keyboards (e.g., HHKB Pro 2, RF87U, Type Heaven, Leopold FC660C) that they have otherwise silenced?

Now that I am listening for the clicks, I have gone back to my silenced RF87UB55, and I can detect some intermittent clicks from a few keys (F9, 3, T, Y, and P). However, the RF clicks are not as noticeable at the NT clicks. I don't notice any clicking keys in my silenced HHKB Pro 2.

Kabouik · 05 Oct 2015, 13:36

Excuse me if the question was already asked but I couldn't read the 10 previous pages: is there a way to buy these rings in Europe without going through the eBay purchase? The import taxes on eBay almost reach 20€, but when you think about it, it's just a bunch of foam rings and they really don't look expensive; plus usually the taxes apply only past a certain threshold (of about 50€ if I remember well), while eBay applies it whatever the total price of the item. They could probably fit in a regular letter, which would save a lot. Is there anybody selling them from Europe?

Also, did someone compare them to the "ironed soft-landing pads" mod? I wonder if the resulting sound and feeling are different.

Thanks for the answers!

Hypersphere · 05 Oct 2015, 15:10

Muirium has volunteered to serve as a proxy for those in the UK and Europe. He will be setting this up in due course.

I have not done a direct comparison with the ironed soft landing pads. At the very least, the Silencing Rings save the labor of ironing.

Kabouik · 05 Oct 2015, 15:16

Thanks Hypersphere! I'll wait until his answer then, hoping it significantly reduces the cost (otherwise, on the eBay auction, I have to spend nearly as much for tax+shipping as for the rings).

Yes, the labor of ironing might be a dealbreaker for me because I don't even have an ironer and would have to borrow it, hence my interest for your silencing rings.

But I couldn't find any comparison of the actual results when keyboards are modded with one solution or the other.

roboticus · 08 Oct 2015, 13:22

does installing these silencing rings noticably affect key travel?

my set of rings finally arrived, along with my thick grease to lubricate stabilisers. hopefully will have a chance to install on the weekend..

Muirium · 08 Oct 2015, 14:33

You'll see for yourself then.

I find them impossible to detect, travel-wise. I have a few on my Realforce 87U's mods and they mix fine with undamped keys. But on the NovaTouch, I can't bear to leave a single key undamped, because the sound difference is stunning!

Hypersphere · 09 Oct 2015, 00:43

Today I installed Silencing Rings in my second Novatouch, which I purchased from Newegg. I am designating this NT-HS2. This one came in somewhat different packaging from my first Novatouch, which I shall call NT-HS1.

I also lubed the stabilizers, this time with "Finish Line" teflon grease, and I put two squares of self-adhesive foam pads under the spacebar, one pad on each side of the central switch. The foam appears to be the same material that is used as anti-skid pads on the bottom of keyboards.

Finally, I installed Ducky PBT keycaps, which are OEM profile. I used dark gray dye-sub alphas and light blue blanks for the modifiers. These keycaps seem to be made to order for the Novatouch. The OEM profile is high enough to avoid down-stroke clicks that otherwise would result from the keycaps hitting the switch housings or plate. The only key that produces some contact noise is the spacebar -- if I hit it fairly hard, particularly on the left side. I might try using thicker foam pads under the spacebar, but with normal typing, I don't notice spacebar noise.

With NT-HS1, I detected some clicking from several keys that seems to be a problem with some of the switch housings. In contrast, there are no keys with this sort of clicking in NT-HS2. Hurrah!

Overall, my second Novatouch, NT-HS2, is a joy to type on. This particular combination of a Novatouch from a later production run outfitted with Silencing Rings, lubed stabilizers, foam pads under the spacebar, and Ducky PBT keycaps in OEM profile seems ideal. With these characteristics and modifications, the Novatouch seems on par with the Realforce 87U.

roboticus · 09 Oct 2015, 00:47

Muirium wrote: ↑You'll see for yourself then.

guess so

Muirium wrote: ↑I find them impossible to detect, travel-wise. I have a few on my Realforce 87U's mods and they mix fine with undamped keys. But on the NovaTouch, I can't bear to leave a single key undamped, because the sound difference is stunning!

i am curious about the difference between a factory silenced board and the standard one + silencing rings. do you know what the difference is between the normal black sliders and the special purple ones in silenced boards?
hmm also any clue what the factory silenced realforces do about the left ctrl? inquiring minds want to know

Hypersphere · 09 Oct 2015, 01:26

@roboticus: I've not tried a factory-silenced RF board. My understanding is that the factory-silenced RF used sliders that were modified to account for the thickness of the silencing rings that they used. I don't know what they did with the left-Ctrl switch.

On the other hand, my understanding is the that Type-S HHKB Pro 2 does not employ different sliders from those in the standard HHKB Pro 2. I have a Type-S HHKB Pro 2 and standard HHKB Pro 2 boards that I have silenced with my rings. In my testing, I find that the HHKB Pro 2 boards that I have silenced sound and feel at least as good as the Type-S; in fact, IMO, the boards I have silenced sound and feel better than the Type-S.

My standard RF87UB55 with my silencing rings installed is exquisite, and I have not noticed any difference in the key travel or other characteristics of the feel of the board.

I am typing this on my silenced Novatouch, which now rivals the sound and feel of my silenced RF87U. With the Ducky dye-sub PBT keycaps in OEM profile and gray and blue colorway, my NT looks like the Realforce 10th anniversary edition!

roboticus · 09 Oct 2015, 02:32

Thanks hyper

i do have a variable silenced variable anniversary 87U but i'm reluctant to take it apart (i dont use it, its kind of a collection piece). i am thinking about swapping the domes to 45 or 55, if i get around to it i'll take some pictures of the left control slider

it hurts my ocd to have a single key not silenced

and i use left ctrl a lot while programming, so id like to do something to fix it one day

Hypersphere · 09 Oct 2015, 03:28

@roboticus: Have you tried using the CapsLock as left Ctrl?

roboticus · 09 Oct 2015, 04:57

Hypersphere wrote: ↑@roboticus: Have you tried using the CapsLock as left Ctrl?

no i have to admit i haven't tried it. i use "ctrl+c/v" and "ctrl+shift+c/v" a million times per day .. and i do use caps lock a fair bit too (dont hate me

).

hmm maybe i should give it a go.. i assume you're a fan of it?

Hypersphere · 09 Oct 2015, 14:11

@roboticus: Yes, I am most definitely a fan of putting Left Control to the left of the "A" key (where the Caps Lock is located on most of today's standard keyboards). As you no doubt know, this layout is used in the HHKB Pro 2. It is also found in the Sun Type 5 and some later Sun keyboards as well as in the Wyse 50 keyboard. The RF87U and some other contemporary keyboards include a DIP switch setting for swapping Caps Lock and Control, and the Mac includes this option in its keyboard settings.

When I am not using my HHKB Pro 2, I use remapping software to achieve a layout as close as possible to the HHKB, including assigning Left Control to Caps Lock. As for Caps Lock, I seldom use it, but the mapping I usually use is Fn+Tab = Caps Lock.

Spikebolt · 09 Oct 2015, 14:30

I cannot get used to NOT having Control in the normal Caps Lock location. Once you get used to it it's impossible to go back

TheNacho · 09 Oct 2015, 14:44

I am now locked on to having Caps remapped to a Windows key, since there normally isnt one on a Model M, and starting with Win 8, it became quite handy with all the shortcuts and stuff

XMIT · 09 Oct 2015, 15:27

On my Apple systems, with Model M keyboards, I do:
Caps Lock -> Ctrl
Alt -> Logo (Command)
Ctrl -> Alt/Option

Sometimes I'll map what was LCtrl to Caps Lock as well.

Apple systems are peculiar because all of the OS shortcuts use Logo (Command), but all text boxes support readline key shortcuts (using Ctrl), and there is of course the terminal which uses Ctrl heavily.

Muirium · 09 Oct 2015, 18:45

Macs are different because Apple invented those common shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts on the PC used to have no consistency between apps. And that's back when there often wasn't a mouse, and so they weren't shortcuts at all but the primary way to use the software! Remember all those WordPerfect and Lotus etc. etc. keyboard overlays? What a steaming mess. Fortunately, Microsoft copied Apple's shortcuts but did so in a time before the Windows key, so they shoved them on Control instead. They make more sense in their original context.

Anyway, I map pretty much the same way on winkeyless (mostly IBM) boards. Caps Lock makes a great Control key, just as it does in the HHKB. I use a macro for actual Caps (press both Shifts together) but I seldom use it anyway. The HHKB's oddball Fn+Tab would bother me, consistency wise, if I did need Caps Lock on a regular basis. But I don't, so I don't notice.

As for the "Type-S" Realforce, I don't have one either. Just my HHKB. My guess is that Topre didn't dicker around with the left Control key on that one, thus sparing the problem in the first place. Anyone got one to go check?

Hypersphere · 10 Oct 2015, 17:40

Score one point for the Novatouch -- it has a normal switch in the Left Control position, so that is is possible to install a silencing ring on all of the keys.

After making all the modifications to the Novatouch (installing silencing rings, lubing the stabilizers, putting foam pads under the spacebar, and installing Ducky dye-sub PBT OEM profile keycaps), I am amazed by how good this keyboard sounds and feels. The transformation from the original is stunning, and if I didn't know I was typing on a CM Novatouch, just judging by the sound and feel, I could swear I was typing on a silenced Realforce 87U all-45g.

Novatouch with Ducky PBT Keycaps in OEM Profile:

: Novatouch2b.jpg (79.65 KiB) Viewed 9565 times

This is my second Novatouch makeover, and I found the results on the second one even better than the first. For example, the second NT has no clicking keys. The model numbers of the two boards are the same, but the S/N of the first one is SGK5000GKCT1US1142000109, whereas the S/N of the second one is SGK5000GKCT1US1150101259. I assume that the higher number corresponds to a later production, and perhaps some improvements were incorporated.

roboticus · 12 Oct 2015, 00:52

@hypersphere thanks for posting your thoughts on the NT. the keyset looks great !!

i was going to buy a NT, but i tested one my friend had and i didn't like it. it didn't seem as solid as a realforce (i'm guessing thats due to the keys not being mounted a metal plate?). The stock ABS keycaps didn't help either.
You're tempting me again to get one as a mod board... but oh man removing the LEDs was such a DUMB move by CM. it really lowers my enthusiasm ..

question about lubing the stabilizers: where does the grease go again? is it in the point where the metal is held in the plastic clip? do you still get any rattle from them?

i ran out of time on the weekend, haven't silenced my RF yet. I need to track down some tape and foam pad today.

Hypersphere · 13 Oct 2015, 15:44

@roboticus: Thanks. I really like the Ducky caps. Wish they had some readily available additional color options, such as black blanks.

I've had the same reaction you did when trying out an NT right out of the box -- I didn't like it. However, if you are willing to invest the time and money, installing silencing rings and PBT keycaps in OEM profile makes a major difference. I think that lubing the stabilizes and putting some foam pads under the spacebar also helps.

Regarding where to lube, the general rule is to look for friction points. I put teflon grease where the stabilizer wire articulates with plastic.

After doing all the above treatments, I notice almost no stabilizer rattle. There does seem to be some residual rattle in the normal Backspace key, but I use Backslash as my Backspace, so I don't notice.

This may seem like a lot to invest in a Novatouch. However, in my case, I end up doing the same things to my RF87U (including new sets of Topre keycaps), so that the total cost for the NT and RF boards is roughly the same. In the end, I would rate the typing experience nearly equal on the modded RF and NT boards, but if I weigh all the attributes, I would give the edge to the RF.

TheNacho · 13 Oct 2015, 15:48

roboticus wrote: ↑i was going to buy a NT, but i tested one my friend had and i didn't like it. it didn't seem as solid as a realforce (i'm guessing thats due to the keys not being mounted a metal plate?)

they are though ... so maybe it was about the ABS and the rattle of the stabs

Hypersphere · 13 Oct 2015, 16:26

Yes, indeed, The Nacho is correct -- the switches in the Novatouch are plate-mounted, as are the switches in the RF87U. In contrast, the switches in the HHKB Pro 2 are case-mounted.

roboticus · 15 Oct 2015, 01:40

ahh ok fair enough. i only had it for a few minutes to play, so not sure exactly what the deal was, i just didn't really like it. It surprised me how much different (worse) it felt to a 45g realforce

but as you say its probably due to stock caps etc etc

Caeyden · 21 Oct 2015, 08:02

Hypersphere wrote: ↑
XMIT wrote: ↑Well, I have 3 extra rings from the pack of 90 I bought for my Novatouch (or, 2 rather; I damaged one). What I don't have is time.

Working at my fastest I found that installing rings in a Novatouch takes an hour. When you factor in removing dental bands and having to re-seat all springs and the rubber membrane due to a misaligned spring that bumps to 90 minutes.

On the switch diagram above, the bottoming out is the underside of the yellow "keycap" hitting the top of the brown "housing". This is a result of the "housing" being so much taller on a HiPro.

There is a small chance that these rings would help if placed at the position I just described. However IIRC the "plunger" does not protrude from the "housing" enough to keep the rings centered.
If you are willing to invest the time, you would be able to use your 2 extra rings to find out if they are going to work in the HiPro.

Regarding the bottoming-out noise in the HiPro, it looks like it might work to put a conventional rubber O-ring on the stem of the keycap. This is something you could readily test if you have some standard O-rings. I don't think the Silencing Rings would help with the bottoming-out issue.

If you try either or both of these things, please let us know the results. Thanks.

Was reading through this thread to see how the rings affect travel and found this.

I recently did a landing pad mod on my HiPro, and I can attest to the fact that ironed landing pads work. However, they don't work as well as they do on an HHKB. I think this is due to the fact that the "Ceiling" of the housing in the Hi-Pro is not flat, like it is in the HHKB. It kind of has a cross pattern to it, and because it isn't level, the landing pads aren't uniformly hitting the ceiling. (When I look at my Modded HiPro from the side, I notice a bit of a difference in how high each key is sitting. In contrast, my Modded HHKB looks perfect - they're all level with each other)

I also tried pudding a landing pad inside the cap, to fix the downstroke clack of the cap hitting the housing. This doesn't work. The landing pad gets stuck in the + of the tall housing, and the key itself gets stuck.

Surprisingly, though, doing the landing pad mod decreased the downstroke clack by a lot. I suspect this is because of the slightly reduced travel, leading to the cap not hitting the housing as hard?

Anywho, I guess noone has compared these Silencing Rings with Ironed Landing Pads yet, huh? I can't seem to find any comparisons in this thread.

Muirium · 21 Oct 2015, 08:16

Perhaps Hyper did when developing these rings. Gotta remember that EK is half the world away from most of us here, and those landing pads become highly expensive to get hold of, and then there's still all the ironing to do! Not exactly appealing.

Interesting report about the HiPro. How well do its caps work on your HHKB? I know it's a different layout, I just mean individually, specifically the damping.

Caeyden · 21 Oct 2015, 09:07

Muirium wrote: ↑Perhaps Hyper did when developing these rings. Gotta remember that EK is half the world away from most of us here, and those landing pads become highly expensive to get hold of, and then there's still all the ironing to do! Not exactly appealing.

Interesting report about the HiPro. How well do its caps work on your HHKB? I know it's a different layout, I just mean individually, specifically the damping.

They work great actually. I tested putting the HiPro keys on my HHKB last week, and they are beautiful. I think I love the feel of the HiPro sphericals more than the stock HHKB keys, and there's a way to make the HiPro fit the layout of the HHKB. Most of the keys are perfectly compatible, even the bottom row. The only thing not kosher is the right shift. You need to use the ctrl or the alt in it's place, which will be an entirely different row profile, and slightly smaller than the actual right shift. You're also going to be missing 1 key for the Fn row, and 2 for the number Row, but I made do with R3 keys in their place.

There is no downstroke clack cause the keys don't hit the short housing of the HHKB. And you get the great feel of the HiPro with the awesome thock of the HHKB. Only thing stopping me from doing that permanently is that the HHKB caps don't work on the HiPro, which means I would have an unusable keyboard.

Hypersphere · 21 Oct 2015, 20:56

Caeyden wrote: ↑ <snip> <snip>
I tested putting the HiPro keys on my HHKB last week, and they are beautiful.
<snip>

Pics! We want pics!

Muirium · 21 Oct 2015, 21:07

Yeah. And for Topre to actually sell those sweet caps separately, without a picky Hi-Pro-only fullsize Realforce attached!

Caeyden · 21 Oct 2015, 22:26

Hypersphere wrote: ↑
Caeyden wrote: ↑ <snip> <snip>
I tested putting the HiPro keys on my HHKB last week, and they are beautiful.
<snip>
Pics! We want pics!

Posted on /rmk a while back: http://imgur.com/a/kPMDT

Muirium · 21 Oct 2015, 22:53

I never understood that /r stuff.

Muiriums-Mac-Pro:~ Mu$ cd /r/mk
-bash: cd: /r/mk: No such file or directory

Anywho, this one looks intriguing:

Someone really needs to try that on a black case. Or lighter caps.