deskthority

So from what I can tell, amongst all the kits in Round 5a there are only four (4) keys that come in 1.75u size: Caps Lock, Control, Shift, and triangle.

Now, I don't know any keyboards/layouts that put a shift key in the Caps Lock position, so for those keyboards which use that key position for neither Caps Lock nor (swapped) Control, the only option is to use the triangle symbol. Do I have that correct, or am I missing something?

zslane wrote: ↑So from what I can tell, amongst all the kits in Round 5a there are only four (4) keys that come in 1.75u size: Caps Lock, Control, Shift, and triangle.

Now, I don't know any keyboards/layouts that put a shift key in the Caps Lock position, so for those keyboards which use that key position for neither Caps Lock nor (swapped) Control, the only option is to use the triangle symbol. Do I have that correct, or am I missing something?

As an additional point to this, a 1.25u and 1.5u Caps Lock would help those switching Caps Lock and Control.

zslane wrote: ↑So from what I can tell, amongst all the kits in Round 5a there are only four (4) keys that come in 1.75u size: Caps Lock, Control, Shift, and triangle.

Now, I don't know any keyboards/layouts that put a shift key in the Caps Lock position, so for those keyboards which use that key position for neither Caps Lock nor (swapped) Control, the only option is to use the triangle symbol. Do I have that correct, or am I missing something?

1800 layout and hhkb layouts use the short right shift along with some 75% boards. I can't remember if I told you this earlier in the thread or someone else.

Phill1 wrote: ↑

zslane wrote: ↑So from what I can tell, amongst all the kits in Round 5a there are only four (4) keys that come in 1.75u size: Caps Lock, Control, Shift, and triangle.

Now, I don't know any keyboards/layouts that put a shift key in the Caps Lock position, so for those keyboards which use that key position for neither Caps Lock nor (swapped) Control, the only option is to use the triangle symbol. Do I have that correct, or am I missing something?

1800 layout and hhkb layouts use the short right shift along with some 75% boards. I can't remember if I told you this earlier in the thread or someone else.

But do they put the "short right shift" in place of Caps Lock?

These G80-1800 keyboards come with a 1.75 units SHIFT. ISO-layout comes with 1.25 units left SHIFT and some Tipro keyboards and my Hyper7 come with 1.5 units SHIFT.

I will be away for a week.


But, I leave the bot behind!


Also: If you pay via SEPA, please pay your invoice because otherwise I will not have any money to come back.

I posted and paid for an order, but am having buyers remorse. Is there anyway to get my money back? If not, I can resubmit my order...

I apologize for not making the point of my question clearer. Here's what I'm getting at:

I have Pok3r keyboards. I have their DIP switches set so that the Caps Lock key functions as a second FN key. It does not function as a Caps Lock, nor is it swapped with Control. At the moment, they are very poorly legended FN keys.

I was pouring through the entire Round 5a inventory looking for 1.75u keys that could serve as an FN key. There are no 1.75u FN keys that I can find. There are 1u and 1.5u FN keys, but no 1.75u FN keys. There are 1.75u Caps Lock keys, but I already have those and they are the core of the problem. There are 1.75u Control keys, but again, I am not swapping Caps Lock with Control, so putting a Control key there is not what I want. There are 1.75u Shift keys, but I can't see any reason why anyone, let alone me with my FN key issue, would put one of those in the Caps Lock key position.

My only remaining alternative seems to be the 1.75u triangle key.

My original post was a request for confirmation that it is indeed my only feasible choice, and that I didn't miss something in the Round 5a inventory.

zslane wrote: ↑There are 1.75u Shift keys, but I can't see any reason why anyone, let alone me with my FN key issue, would put one of those in the Caps Lock key position.

Right Shift. HHKB style.

I don't know what that means. Every image of the HHKB that I find on a Google search shows a Control key in the Caps Lock position.

I don't see a Shift key in the Caps Lock position (i.e., under the Tab key on the left).

But even if the bizarre layout of the HHKB can somehow make sense of the "Shift in the Caps Lock position" confusion I'm having, I don't see how it helps me get a useful "FN" keycap in place of Caps Lock.

yep zslane, use the triangle key.

The 1.75u shift just goes where the normal right shift would be it's just shorter. 7bit has it row 3 instead or row 4 for symmetry with the screwy SP shifts that don't have the right molds, but it is intended to be used in R4

For what it's worth, there is also

HONEYB/LOTUS175

in all colors...



And if you're looking for the classic Round 5 grey, there's this in the R5 leftovers:

Thanks Halvar!

See, I did miss one...the Lotus flower.

I also like the FUNCTION keycap from HONEY/MODEXTRA175...if only it came in all the colors, especially BLUE.

The one advantage of the triangle is that it can be matched up with the 1.25u triangle mod that would serve as the FN key in its regular position on a Poker (i.e., in place of the right WIN key). There is no 1.25u Lotus flower to match with the 1.75u one.

Yes, HONEY/MODEXTRA175 was only ever made in grey, and still there are 9 leftovers. So this wasn't exactly a popular kit ...

The trouble with triangle is that it's an icon mod on a board full of text mods. It'll be very obviously different from all the rest. I'd either go with the extra expense to get the perfect Function legend key, or do as I actually do which is to put Caps Lock on the key anyway, despite the fact I don't use the key for that. I'm well used to living with Caps Lock there on my IBMs, always mapped to Control. It's not like I'll forget!

7bit wrote: ↑These will ship today:

0661

This would be just the leftovers item shipping from my order right? The honeyb couldn't be going out already could it?

Yes, of course. The HONEYB stuff hasn't been produced yet.

Muirium wrote: ↑The trouble with triangle is that it's an icon mod on a board full of text mods. It'll be very obviously different from all the rest. I'd either go with the extra expense to get the perfect Function legend key, or do as I actually do which is to put Caps Lock on the key anyway, despite the fact I don't use the key for that. I'm well used to living with Caps Lock there on my IBMs, always mapped to Control. It's not like I'll forget!

Yeah, I hear ya. Thing is, I don't want to leave Caps Lock there if I can avoid it. I am too conditioned to avoid touching any key labeled "Caps Lock", and so I hesitate whenever I need to use it for cursor navigation (FN+J, FN+K, etc.). It trips me up. But I figure if I put another legend there, one that better conveys its new role as the FN key, I won't unconsciously hesitate any more.

I don't mind using the triangle because I am considering putting icon mods down for all the right-side thumb keys anyway. Those are throwaway keys for me, i.e., I never use them, and so marking them with icons while the rest of the modifiers are text visually separates them and reinforces their "these might as well not exist" nature.

For Granite I'm trying to score your 1.75u starburst key to match the 1.25u one I already use as the bottom row FN key. For Dolch, I was really looking forward to getting in on that GB that was going to supply yellow Esc keys and 1.75u FN keys. That became a bust, so for Dolch I'm stuck with Caps Lock. But for all my Round 5a colorways, I'd like some options.

Our Granite trade is a done deal (well, in a 7bit kind of past tense!) as I need that stepped icon Caps Lock off you equally as much as you want my starburst. Easy. Once I'm in America. (Adds it to packing list.)

Muirium wrote: ↑<snip>

Also you need a blue tilde key for those of us who like symmetric colours more than a strict distinction between alphas and mods. That would solve two niggles of mine with that key in one go.

Yes, I can relate to that! I need my color symmetry!

@zslane: Regarding issues with modifiers having the wrong legends, this is why I prefer blank modifiers. (This is one area where Muirium and I disagree -- mixing blanks and printed keys. I prefer my keyboards with printed alphanumeric keys and blank mods).

I sort of get the aesthetic appeal of an entire keyboard of blank keycaps. But functionally that is like a guitar without fret markers. Sure, I can get by without the visual indicators, but they are comforting and actually quite useful when my fingers drift completely off base and I need a visual landmark or two to get back on course, so to speak.

But keyboards with blank keycaps here and there just scream "I couldn't get the right keycaps for this," which looks amateurish to me. But to each their own, right?

Actually, a guitar without frets has a functional purpose too: you can slide up and down the neck at will without abrupt "bumps" in the sound. Check out fretless bass guitar tracks, they're fantastic! As smooth as silk

zslane wrote: ↑I sort of get the aesthetic appeal of an entire keyboard of blank keycaps. But functionally that is like a guitar without fret markers. Sure, I can get by without the visual indicators, but they are comforting and actually quite useful when my fingers drift completely off base and I need a visual landmark or two to get back on course, so to speak.

But keyboards with blank keycaps here and there just scream "I couldn't get the right keycaps for this," which looks amateurish to me. But to each their own, right?

My guitar has no fret markers, but I put a dot on the player side of the neck to mark the 7th fret. I do find that I need that point of reference.

Yes, blanks just here and there might give a keyboard an unfinished look, but I rather like all blanks for mods. However, truth be told, I probably started this habit out of frustration arising from not being able to populate my keyboards with mods having the correct legends or some alpha keys not having correct legends. These problems came about in turn because of my practice of remapping standard keyboards to a HHKB layout and wanting color symmetry on the board.

Maybe I'll have to label my layouts as "HHKB Amateur 2".

As a kid, I played fretless… cello. So there!

Another fun fact: when I was first getting into mechanical keyboards, the HHKB that I had my eye on was the blank white model. In fact, I was all about blanks at first. They spell "elite mutha" when sighted by mere mortals. It was surely the Das Keyboard that turned me on to those, which I heard about donkeys years ago but never pursued. (Glad I didn't. Pretty much everything about the Das isn't to my taste, I've discovered.) By the time I finally got around to buying my HHKB (after two increasingly painful years on Deskthority!) the one I sprang for was the dyesubbed white Type-S. Very pleased I did. The legends are gorgeous, and the sound is sweeter to my ears than my undamped Realforce.

Two things turned me around on legends. First: my IBMs. My very first mech was an XT for goodness sake! Top notch. And then the design phases of Granite and Round 5. Legends are such a complicating factor for caps group buys, how could I possibly miss out!? Sounds backwards, and it is!, yet this somehow makes sense to me. Caps don't look quite right to me without legends now. Even though I type just fine on full blanks.

When I attended HaaTa's keyboard meet at GitHub HQ in San Francisco back in spring, I brought three boards with me. The Ergo Pro I'd just picked up from Matias (now on tour), the 3276 beamspring I'd just cleaned up and Xwhatsited from Cindy, and my HHKB. Usually if you're packing beamspring, you're the only one in the building, but not there! It was a great meetup with loads of rarities. HaaTa put a DisplayWriter right next to my 3276, and ikewise, my HHKB was far from alone. But the 3 or so other HHKBs there were all blank. Seems to be the more popular look! I distinctly remember someone borrowing my HHKB to show people how the function layer is laid out.

scottc wrote: ↑Actually, a guitar without frets has a functional purpose too: you can slide up and down the neck at will without abrupt "bumps" in the sound. Check out fretless bass guitar tracks, they're fantastic! As smooth as silk

Note: I didn't say fretless. I said lacking fret markers. I should have said "fret inlays" instead but my brain was lagging behind my fingers. When it comes to fretless instruments, the only one I'll bother with is the violin. Not that I have time for that, what with all my focus on oboe these days...

Actually, I go back and forth on legends vs. blanks.

I do really like the legends on my Granite set, and in this case, I oscillate between preferring icons and text legends on the modifiers.

To my right on my U-shaped desk sits a Honeywell terminal (CRT and keyboard). I like everything about the way it looks -- the shape, color, reflectance, and layout of the keys -- and the text legends. It's a contextual thing. The text legends are ideally suited to the original functions of this machine.

So, now I am looking down at my newly silenced Novatouch with its mixed sets of Ducky PBT keycaps -- black on gray dye-sub alphas and (currently) blank blue modifiers along with blank gray nav island caps. This discussion has me wondering about putting printed modifiers on the board. However, this would leave me with incorrect legends on the Backslash and Backspace keys (which for me are reversed) as well as (for me) the wrong color on the Backtick/Tilde and Backslash (my Backspace) keys. Moreover, on the nav island, I prefer to have arrow keys that are the same color as the alphas, but the two-tone Ducky sets have blue arrow keys -- the same color as the mods. Furthermore, when it comes to text legends on 1-unit keys, the text looks too crowded -- especially when it comes to squeezing "Print Screen and SysRq" onto a single key. Finally, although I applaud the lack of a "Windows" key, the Ducky symbol is just not my style.

There are, of course, many makes of keycap sets other than Ducky. I settled on this set because it is one of the few relatively high quality ensembles made of PBT in the OEM profile. Nothing else has worked as well for me on the Novatouch keyboard.

EDIT: Almost forgot -- if I were to use the printed mods, I would have "Caps Lock" on my Control key! I am with zslane on this -- this particular incorrect labeling would tend to throw me off.

When you dive that deep into the rabbit hole of unconventional keyboard layouts you are at the mercy of your affliction and all its complications. I sympathize with you to an extent because I want to be able to customize the look of my Space Cadet homage in all kinds of "non-standard" ways, but I'm not crawling into the kind of insanity you're describing, Hyper. I fear you've placed yourself beyond anyone's ability to help you.

1.75u Function is pretty damn nutty too, just saying…