Matias Linear Switch

matt3o · 08 Jan 2015, 09:11

I don't know much about it apart that is (very creatively) red.

Shown at CES

https://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/16034054269/

7bit · 08 Jan 2015, 09:38

Nice, so we don't need to remove the tactile leaf to get a linear switch.

BUT:
All we want from them is a Cherry mount!

jacobolus · 08 Jan 2015, 09:42

cf.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32 ... #msg620290
http://stenosaurus.blogspot.com/2014/07 ... tches.html
(I suspect there were also other people pestering them to make linear switches for a while)

Also:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60 ... msg1532402
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60 ... msg1532274
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32 ... msg1411891
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66 ... msg1551191
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67424.0

[The linear switch’s helical spring is] identical to the spring inside the Quiet Click switch. You can get a close facsimile by opening a Quiet Click switch, flattening the leaf bumps with a pair of pliers, and then reassembling the switch. Here's what the Linear Leaf looks like vs. the Quiet Click Leaf...

FYI, we did 5 different designs and this one was picked as feeling the best -- the other 4 designs were spring only (no leaf).

Muirium · 08 Jan 2015, 11:21

Damped or not damped?

jacobolus · 08 Jan 2015, 11:21

Yes dampened. (But if you want to hear plastic-on-plastic at the stroke bottom, you could always remove the rubber dampers or swap sliders with a clicky switch.)

Muirium · 08 Jan 2015, 11:28

Damped is good. I'd like damped clicky Matias switches too, which I finally have the parts to try and assemble for myself…

7bit's homemade (limited edition white slider!) Matias linears are very nice.

7bit · 08 Jan 2015, 14:15

You can make them all by yourself!

The slider is always the same. It is the leaf that clicks, tactiles or linears!

BTW: I don't like them dampened, because they feel like a rubberdome when bottoming out.

andrewjoy · 08 Jan 2015, 17:25

7bit is correct

take out the leaf and the rubber dampers and you have one of the best liner switches possible, they are the best i have used but i have not made my lubed vintage super reds yet ( custom light spring with vintage black stem) need me a desoldering gun

you can also do this with alps black but they are not as nice as the matias

EDIT

and indeed Matias switches with an MX mount mmmm sexy that would just be the dream

Findecanor · 08 Jan 2015, 21:44

7bit wrote: ↑BTW: I don't like them dampened, because they feel like a rubberdome when bottoming out.

It is a distinct bottoming out though, like Key Tronic, Topre and most scissor switches. Not mushy like crap domes.

Muirium · 08 Jan 2015, 21:54

Exactly. Some of us like Topre, you know! And I assume you can choose to take out the bottoming out damper, but leave the other damper intact for the upstroke. Damping upstroke (the topping out sound all MX switches make) is the real win for me. But I don't mind full damping on both sides either.

Nuum · 08 Jan 2015, 22:05

I swapped a dampened slider from a Matias quiet click into a loose clicky switch, but it felt a little bit wrong to me, like something was missing, although I imagined it to be quite nice with just the click to be heard. I've yet to try Matias switches in general in a full keyboard though.

andrewjoy · 08 Jan 2015, 22:15

Muirium wrote: ↑Exactly. Some of us like Topre, you know! And I assume you can choose to take out the bottoming out damper, but leave the other damper intact for the upstroke. Damping upstroke (the topping out sound all MX switches make) is the real win for me. But I don't mind full damping on both sides either.

they are the same thing , its like a long rubber in a small slit in the side of the slider , you could push it up a bit but i dunno if that world work

scottc · 08 Jan 2015, 22:24

matt3o wrote: ↑I don't know much about it apart that is (very creatively) red.

I can't stop laughing... this is hilarious. I suppose it's because you have to have RED switches for gaming!

jacobolus · 08 Jan 2015, 22:40

andrewjoy wrote: ↑they are the same thing , its like a long rubber in a small slit in the side of the slider , you could push it up a bit but i dunno if that world work

It’s pretty easy to cut the end off the damper if you really want to.

jacobolus · 08 Mar 2015, 06:46

At the Bay Area meetup today, HaaTa put together a full 60% keyboard with Matias quiet linear (red) switches, and then several of us directly compared Gateron red vs. Cherry MX red vs. Matias red switches, loose.

First, a Matias switch keyboard is really quiet, since it has the little rubber dampers in it (same as the Matias quiet tactile switch).

Second, while the Gateron switch is definitely noticeably smoother (i.e. less frictiony) than the MX switch, the Matias switch trounces both of them. Much smoother than any unlubed Cherry MX or MX clone switch I’ve ever tried, and I’d guess pretty comparable to lubed MX switches (though we didn’t have any handy to compare against, so I’m speculating a bit), or to white space invaders or complicated green Alps (but we also didn’t have any of those to compare with).

The switch weight seems slightly heavier than MX red (putting it closer to my preferred weight for linear switches), though without a full assembled MX red keyboard to compare against directly (only the loose switches) it was a bit hard to judge. Still a bit lighter than my preference, which would be approximately the weight of green Alps (I’d guess these are maybe 5–10g lighter than that).

The Matias keyboard also wasn’t plugged into anything, so I’m not precisely sure at what point in the stroke the switch actuates. I’m guessing it’s slightly closer to the top than MX switches.

I hope HaaTa (maybe with some help) can get a better force curve gauge built sometime soon, because I’d love to see precise graphical comparisons between these and MX switches. I’m not sure if there’s any good way to precisely (numerically) characterize how frictiony a switch is, but that would also be handy.

Anyway, I think the folks out there who appreciate linear switches are going to be thrilled with these. Considering how much people have been hyping Gaterons the last couple months, Matias linear switches might blow some minds. These are as nice or nicer out of the box as andrewjoy’s proposed “lubed vintage super reds” from upthread.

matt3o · 08 Mar 2015, 10:36

thanks for the report, jacobolus.

The problem is --as always-- keycaps and stabilizers.

Muirium · 08 Mar 2015, 13:13

Anyone got the numbers on what's stopping Matias switches being redesigned to take MX mounts? That would be an enormous breakthrough for him, and us. A real upgrade for all concerned.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Mar 2015, 13:43

Something like this, you mean?

: AKF Cherry MX mount -- top, angled.jpg (70.41 KiB) Viewed 19125 times

[wiki]Hua-Jie AKF Cherry MX mount[/wiki]

Unfortunately these photos came from someone who doesn't speak much English, and all I know is that they were samples from Strong Man from just before Strong Man went out of business. One can only guess as to why they never knowingly went into production.

Muirium · 08 Mar 2015, 13:56

Nice one. Looks spot on, doesn't it? How different are the insides from the present Matias? I assume it's a fair bit of work, but definitely doable.

If Matias made switches like that, and appropriate stabilisers, he could make vastly more attractive boards with full compatibility with all the MX caps GBs. And we could get around designing customs with hybrid switch layouts so to make the best use of his nice mechanism while retaining MX when wobble's a problem. Matias alphas and MX mods comes to mind!

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Mar 2015, 14:08

You've got access to the same photos as I have.

My only concern is that the fat ring around the base of the keycap stem would get in the way of the click leaf. I don't possess the switch, so I can't test this; it just looks suspect to me. Also, that sample switch is indeed linear.

Muirium · 08 Mar 2015, 14:18

I'm positively dense when it comes to making sense of switch mechanisms. Thanks for working out what was not at all obvious to me. One of the many things I like about buckling spring and Topre is that everything's big and simple enough for me to understand it! Not so for Alps. I can read descriptions and even peek through a clear shell Matias, yet somehow it's still mysterious to me. I either understand things on first sight, or never.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Mar 2015, 15:00

Well, you have some Matias switches in your possession, I assume. I also assume you have at least one narrow copper leaf Alps clone switch — the switch above appears to just be a bog standard T1 clone with the slider and upper shell modified.

SKBL/SKBM and Matias switches are not the same design inside as T1-style switches. They're much closer to T8 (which may have a compatible shell with T5 — T5/T8 gets weird).

This is pure speculation, but the key consideration appeared to be finding ways to reduce the switch height. Cherry placed the slider stem on a platform that descends inside the switch, which is what had to be done to the switch above. Alps decided that it would be easier to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow — the keycap was redesigned to have only a small nub, and that meant that the slider could entirely disappear inside the switch. Hi-Tek instead wrapped the keycap around the slider. Normally, the keycap sits above the top of the switch to the tune of the switch travel, and is resting above the switch when fully depressed. Maybe the following hasty and horribly inaccurate diagram will help:

: Rubbish diagram.jpg (115.86 KiB) Viewed 19101 times

Cherry put the clicker below the slider, while Alps placed it to the side, and that's where you seem to get interference: the platform that the keycap rests on looks like it's going to come down into the gap where the click leaf needs to be pulled forwards.

Muirium · 08 Mar 2015, 15:27

תקין.שהגיוני לי.

Uh, I mean that makes sense to me! The MX cap mount is definitely big. In the abstract, I'd say Topre's is probably my favourite among common switches, but it takes a similar "deep dive" approach right into the switch. Alps mount is smart for saving space, but a real bugger to pull sometimes, plus deformations in the plastic when mating certain combinations of switch and cap alter the switch's travel. Argh! And of course MX won, so this is wholly academic.

So, my reading is that there's a lot of work required to adapt Matias switches for MX mounts. The simplest approach is to make them taller, to accommodate the cap stem and platform on the slider, but that would make their wobble worse! Well, unless extra stabilisation for the slider can be included in a taller design…

bhtooefr · 08 Mar 2015, 15:49

Actually, MX mount Matias could probably be done by making the switch case larger (as Alps-type switches have a smaller case than MX), without making it taller, although there'll be some restriction on keycap profiles I think. (And, height reduction may even be somewhat possible by taking a trick from the Cherry MX bag, of having the spring extend down through the PCB. It's worth noting that Alps is 3.5 mm travel, not 4.0 mm like Cherry or buckling spring.)

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Mar 2015, 16:02

The stray writing is upside down. I've not had anything come through the post lately to draw on, so I found a spare gap on another envelope. (Granted, I could have fetched a piece of A4 paper …)

I'm not an engineer. Looking at one of my Cherry MX mount doubleshot keycaps (from EK — guessing they're GMK) the stem within the keycap is marginally wider (something like 0.1 mm) than the Matias slider on either side. I am not sure why the clone switch above needs a large circular platform to support the keycap, but if you could remove that, you should be able to do it. That platform might reduce strain on the slider stem itself by ensuring that tilt pressure on the keycap is met by the platform instead of the stem, otherwise the stem might snap.

The engineering-orientated folk amongst us might have a better idea on this one.

That circular platform will definitely block the click leaf in a Matias, which swings forwards to rest against the slider before being released. The switch would still work, but the click leaf would only move forward half as much, and that would alter the feel — I assume it would force the click to occur higher up in the travel and reduce the amplitude of the click.

One possibility would be a circular cutout at the top of leaf to clear that platform. Interestingly, cutouts at the top of click leaves do occur in several designs, including Omron B3G-S series, so it's a possibility; what effect this has on the switch, I do not know.

Edit: something like this:

: Something like this; Something like this.jpg (164.15 KiB) Viewed 19079 times

Muirium · 08 Mar 2015, 16:27

I need to meditate at length on this. As I said earlier: dense!

@Bhtooefr: The PCB mounting holes on MX are pretty smart actually when installing switches by hand, and I'd rather Matias switches had them too, rather than relying solely on pins for positioning. Those are flexible after all! MX's plastic nub makes a great anchor. Although using that spot on Matias you'd get the LED underlighting guys peeved for stealing their LED window…

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Mar 2015, 16:35

You need a Joyboard then ^_^

bhtooefr · 08 Mar 2015, 16:52

Although, all the Alps switches are plate mount, and therefore they're not relying on the pins for positioning...

jacobolus · 08 Mar 2015, 21:42

The short answer is: the switches would have to be entirely redesigned and retooled at very large expense (somewhere in the tens of thousands of dollars range at least), and there’s just not *that* much advantage in being MX compatible.

Also, the MX keycap mount is pretty silly.

Hypersphere · 08 Mar 2015, 21:55

Enjoying my V60 Matias-switch boards, one with Matias Click and the other with Matias Quiet. I like them both, but overall I prefer the Matias Click. It seems more consistent and the dual aural/tactile feedback helps me type faster and more accurately than with the mostly tactile feedback from the Quiet switch.

Haven't tried Matias linears yet. They are an option on the V60, but MK is sold out. However, the second-round GB for the Infinity 60% keyboard has three days remaining, and Matias linears are one of the switch options.

Matias linears are also an option for the Matias 60 keyboard. The GB is still in progress, but the bottom row on the Matias 60 is problematic and there will be a very long wait before these boards are shipped.

I suppose before too long Matias linears will be available by the bagful from Matias and MK for various DIY projects.

Regarding keycap mounts, although Cherry has the advantage of keycap availability, there is something to be said for a mount designed in such a way that the keycap snaps smartly into place, like Topre or IBM buckling spring.

EDIT: Just checked the MK site. They are expecting another batch of V60s with Matias linears by April 10 and they can be pre-ordered now.