CM Storm Quick Fire Rapid with LED backlight

[Bramster]

Hey guys,

I recently opened a topic here about a Topre switch with Cherry MX compatibility. (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/top ... t7076.html)

But now besides that one I would also like you guys' opinion about a possible Quick Fire Rapid with LED backlight.. What do you think?

And not just 'normal' LED backlight, how about some cool backlight modes?
- full on
- full off
- WASD
- Breating/Pulsating
- ActivLight (key lights when you hit it)
- ActivLight 2 (key lights when you hit it and stays on for a few seconds)
- Programmable LED. You choose what LEDs are on and which are off! For example if you play LOL just have 1-6, Q,W,E,R,D and F on and the rest off!

Thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hvJgnnJWxc (This YouTube vid shows it & sub to this YT channel if you want to be updated with all the EU vids of CM!!)

[matt3o]

I'm not a fan of backlighting but if you have to go backlight let's go backlight all the way! So since, you have a led matrix take use of it and what you are showing in the video is pretty neat.

I may suggest to also add a programmable "demo mode", where you can define a kind of led animation/pattern... like Christmas lights

That being said, what we really need is a fully programmable keyboard, where you can define FN key position and FN layer to your liking. That comes way before any super lit keyboard IMHO.

[Jmneuv]

That being said, what we really need is a fully programmable keyboard, where you can define FN key position and FN layer to your liking. That comes way before any super lit keyboard IMHO.

With all the innovations around mechanical keyboards i've been wondering for a while now why none of the manufacturers dares to pull down that wall.

[matt3o]

really, that would be the holy grail of keyboards.

that comes before topre/mx hybrid, backlight and fancy keycaps

[rindorbrot]

Also ISO support please.
There are almost no ISO TKL backlit boards available at the moment.

[Findecanor]

Backlight is mostly a gimmick that I could live without. As I see it, it makes the keyboard more expensive and cheapens it at the same time ... but I admit that my view has been tarnished by many backlit keyboards that I have seen that have looked like toys.

If I was going to buy a keyboard with backlit legends... or legends at all, it would need to have Swedish layout, and only Swedish layout, not some mishmash.
I don't know many Swedes who also write in Norwegian and Danish every day. I am active in a pan-Nordic club and we usually use our own languages when typing or talking to another Nordic person, or we use English.
The Swedish letters are often in centre on "Nordic" key sets, so I suppose that Danes and Norwegians like those keys even less than I do.

The font should not look like a toy. I actually like Eurostile Extended Bold, which is a quite blocky, but there are limits.

And the legends should not wear out too fast, like some printed legends. I absolutely do not want any keycaps for backlighting where the plastic is translucent and the area around the legend is paint that wears off easily so that the letters flow out. (Hello mid-00's MacBook!)
I want a textured, matte, high-friction key surface that feels good. Not tacky like paint, and no raised letters.

Legends should be legible in a lit room with the backlighting off. A backlighting feature that I would appreciate would be if the backlighting adjusted itself to the surrounding light. Sunlight: backlight off. Dark room: backlight on.

I do not like light bleeding between the keys. Do use a LED type that emits a narrow cone of light. The keycap's skirt and the plate should be in light-absorbing colours and textures so as not to reflect light.
I suspect that the transparent Cherry "RGB" switches with surface-mounted LEDs under them would be much worse than existing Cherry MX switches with 3mm LEDs raised up a bit with the emitter actually inside the keycap's skirt.

Wrong LED wavelengths in dark rooms hurt the eyes. It has been proven: ask an eye doctor. Blue is worst. Yellow/amber is best. Plus, blue LEDs is just as yesterday, ugly and tacky as silver-painted plastic. Warm white looks good and is timeless.

Small centred legends look bad on large keys. Put the legend and the LED in a corner instead. It is easier to light-insulate a LED with black plastic if it is not mounted inside a switch.

[kbdfr]

[…] That being said, what we really need is a fully programmable keyboard, where you can define FN key position and FN layer to your liking. That comes way before any super lit keyboard IMHO.

I agree.
It's just a matter of purchasing the know-how from Tipro and adding the bling

With all the innovations around mechanical keyboards i've been wondering for a while now why none of the manufacturers dares to pull down that wall.

Ever heard of Tipro?

[Findecanor]

And not just 'normal' LED backlight, how about some cool backlight modes?
- Programmable LED. You choose what LEDs are on and which are off! For example if you play LOL just have 1-6, Q,W,E,R,D and F on and the rest off!

I forgot to type that I think is actually a really good idea. I hope that it is persistent also (EEPROM) so that it is not lost on power off.

[Bramster]

I see the Topre topic gets a little more interest then this one I see from the DT community !?

But to answer this question:

And not just 'normal' LED backlight, how about some cool backlight modes?
- Programmable LED. You choose what LEDs are on and which are off! For example if you play LOL just have 1-6, Q,W,E,R,D and F on and the rest off!

I forgot to type that I think is actually a really good idea. I hope that it is persistent also (EEPROM) so that it is not lost on power off.

We also like this backlight idea.. The backlight profiles are stored on the keyboard memory. After power off your profiles will therefore still be there just how you left it the time before

[matt3o]

see how he dribbled our point about a fully customizable keyboard

[Bramster]

But feedback is noted haha

[kint]

I see the Topre topic gets a little more interest then this one I see from the DT community !?...

The reason is the orientation of this forum, no overclock/gamer/kiddie forum, but mostly grown up professional programmer/coder/typists who touch type and use the keyboard as their tool - at daylight office hours. Take a look at the post your desktop topic, to see what I mean, namely one, two, three, four. In two of the four mentioned you'll see the rather odd Tipro point of sale keyboards, because they are fully programmable.
In other words, ranks in a keyboard for a lot of people here are: 1. switch, 2. layout, 3. keycap feel, 4. build quality, 5. looks.
Hence the WASD V2 won our best regular keyboard 2013 award pretty sure these features played a role:

Configurable Key Output
- Switch between QWERTY, Mac, Dvorak, and Colemak output modes
- Switch Caps Lock to Ctrl

It's pretty notable the QFR gained it's share in the communities, but if you manage to make it fully programmable, CM might step up from "gamer oriented company selling a nice usable keyboard" to "company selling nice keyboards for either gamers or professionals". Dropping the over the top branding and the stealth caps are a step in the right direction imo. And the Topre MX stems may become a giant leap.
No offense meant, just my train of thought.

On a personal note, the backlighting in my CM Trigger actually convinced me that I don't need backlit. Only half of the legends are visible which is partially because of the switch/construction, but though, rather none than this kind. Maybe your competition is onto something but they managed to appal the community with their stupid rubberdome/mechanical mix before, so we'll see.
And: welcome to the forum, good to have you here.

[Findecanor]

The reason is the orientation of this forum, no overclock/gamer/kiddie forum, but mostly grown up professional programmer/coder/typists who touch type and use the keyboard as their tool - at daylight office hours.

Just because many of us are grown-up and computer professionals, does not meant that we don't like playing games.

[tlt]

Double shots with transparent legends might look cool and be useful in a dark room.

Being able to set a low intensity is important so that the keyboard does not disturb you.

A light sensor that is used to set intensity automatically would be nice.

I have used professional backlit keyboards and they had a intensity setting with a stepless turning knob and green light.

[kint]

...Just because many of us are grown-up and computer professionals, does not meant that we don't like playing games.

Just because you like to play games doesn't mean you'ld buy a keyboard just because the manufacturer added backlight.

Double shots with transparent legends might look cool and be useful in a dark room.Being able to set a low intensity is important so that the keyboard does not disturb you....

Spoilered is my CM trigger at full brightness (which requires an external 5V PSU when on USB 2.0) in a dark room with no external light and with some dim ceiling light. In both cases the brightness is too high to not be annoying hence all the corona around the caps, yet still some 2nd and 3rd legends are barely visible. Imo this is a problem of font, cap construction and uneven lighting from the MX LED (position). 1&2 should be easily solvable, 3 not so, but maybe a different LED construction may help. Uneven lighting due to LED construction is a topic in different fields, an annoying one is if you replace the bulbs in an old cars speedo. Someone documented the difference in the beam angles of different LEDs very vivid here.
For myself however I decided I won't take the effort in decapping/sanding all the Triggers LEDs and return to high contrast non backlit caps instead. Although I like the idea of a fully programmable backlight, I propably won't use it as the caps on the unlit ones tend to show their cheapness even more.

Spoiler:

[tlt]

Getting backlight right is harder than you initially might think. maybe transparent plastic can lead and distribute the light from a LED with narrow angle. Making all the legends light up without too much blading round the edges of the cap. One problem is the distance between the LED and the cap when it is no pressed on a cherry switch.

[kint]

I don't think it is easy. I just prefer to have non over uneven lighting. Findecanor proposed a promising approach with the corner LEDs, i threw in different beam angles. However I "fear" that the topic keyboard might emerge as a regular QFR with LEDs in place and CMs regular shinethrough caps, as well as a replacement controller. That, personally, I can live without.

edit: On the Numrow the problem is afair that the switches are mounter upside down, hence the LEDs throw their (centered) beam at the top half of the cap making the numbers shine bright whilst 2nd, 3rd degree legends suffer from the switch case blocking the light. Reversing the switch or reversing the legends with the Numbers under the 2nd/3rd legends might've been better. And of yourse it's a stretch for the LEDs because of the amount of cap movement.

[Muirium]

Exactly. Meanwhile Topre switches are a guaranteed improvement we can really relish. It's quite logical why one topic is much hotter than the other here. Backlit keyboards are dime a dozen, but Topres not quite!

[Bramster]

Exactly. Meanwhile Topre switches are a guaranteed improvement we can really relish. It's quite logical why one topic is much hotter than the other here. Backlit keyboards are dime a dozen, but Topres not quite!

That is true indeed and I noticed the DT community really has good knowledge on keyboards! Therefore feedback is very much appreciated. Especially on the Topre topic because that is not only aimed at gaming.


and @ all others about backlight.. Its as you know due to the fact that the LED is mounted on the top of the Cherry switch and therefor the top letter (if more then 1 on a keycap) get better light then the bottom one. There is very little we can do about that. For example we do make the plate where the switches are mounted to in a color that will reflect the LED light for a better glow/effect.

[Muirium]

Cherry isn't the only option for LEDs, of course. Matias led the way with transparent switches:

With the lights on:

LEDs have to go underneath them, but it works quite nicely. Besides, Matias switches have a lot of fans here. They sit in the sweet spot between MX brown and clear for weight and tactility (what the popular ergo clear mod attempts to achieve with MX) and they work with a lot of the classic Alps caps we tend to have lying around!

But overall, you're right to look to Topre. There's no good way to hack backlighting into their switch, but they appeal to those of us who aren't particularly bothered if it's missing anyway. The main advance you can make for us is price and availability. Topre's are rare in Europe, but highly prized.

[kint]

and @ all others about backlight.. Its as you know due to the fact that the LED is mounted on the top of the Cherry switch and therefor the top letter (if more then 1 on a keycap) get better light then the bottom one. There is very little we can do about that. For example we do make the plate where the switches are mounted to in a color that will reflect the LED light for a better glow/effect.

Painting the plate is a good thing for sure. On the unlit 2nd legends, actually there's a lot you can do about it, and it's an easy fix too.

image owned by jwpierce3 @ DT

I don't advertise anything about the shown board, but the placement of the legends on the NUMrow is superior to CMs style of legends in that row.
Your Function row however is an interesting approach too.

Something very similiar is what Devlin offers as their "B series" keycaps. A full shine through insert in an otherwise blocking cap. Qwerkeys takes them and lasers the legends. Unfortunately there's only one profile available afaik, but this could be the way to go. Also lasering the legends would last longer than the paint printed legends on CMs function row.
That aside, Topre is the way to go for sure.

[Bramster]

Painting the plate is a good thing for sure. On the unlit 2nd legends, actually there's a lot you can do about it, and it's an easy fix too.

I don't advertise anything about the shown board, but the placement of the legends on the NUMrow is superior to CMs style of legends in that row.
Your Function row however is an interesting approach too.

Something very similiar is what Devlin offers as their "B series" keycaps. A full shine through insert in an otherwise blocking cap. Qwerkeys takes them and lasers the legends. Unfortunately there's only one profile available afaik, but this could be the way to go. Also lasering the legends would last longer than the paint printed legends on CMs function row.
That aside, Topre is the way to go for sure.

That's actually indeed quite a simple but effective way and I totally agree that its a easy fix...

@ Muirium: Actually Cherry is also moving in the direction with clear/transparent switch bodies with their new RGB switches. That should also give a more even effect.

[Findecanor]

I don't advertise anything about the shown board, but the placement of the legends on the NUMrow is superior to CMs style of legends in that row.

Why is there no backlit Cherry keyboard with left-aligned legends? Many Japanese keyboards and the Apple Newton keyboard placed the legends there. The orientation of the switch matters otherwise only if there are Costar-style stabilisers.

I don't think that backlit Topre-knockoffs are impossible to engineer - just a little bit more difficult. Transparent silicone dome and clear slider is not impossible. The spring has a hole in the middle like any other spring. Put a hole in the PCB with a LED inside. You get centred legends.

[Muirium]

I don't think that backlit Topre-knockoffs are impossible to engineer - just a little bit more difficult. Transparent silicone dome and clear slider is not impossible. The spring has a hole in the middle like any other spring. Put a hole in the PCB with a LED inside. You get centred legends.

Hmm. Topre is all about the dome. It's the only element of the switch you feel (the spring is there for capacitative sensing and adds little of its own). A silicone dome would be a bigger overhaul for them than transparent casings like Matias and (copycat!) Cherry. They'd have to match the material down to the way it buckles, which is the defining tactility in their switch. The same applies for anyone trying to emulate their feel. I'm no material scientist, but I bet there's more to doing that than looking up a number on a table.

You're right about the spring, though. It is conical, but not so substantial that it would really get in the way.

(Standard Topre spring on left. A space bar stabiliser on right.)

[cookie]

The main Problem with Backlit keyboards is that most of them are made of transculent plastic and painted with thick paint with the letterings spared out. No paint on earth is more durable than the material itself, that means that the painted area will get shiny fast and it will wear of over time!

If I see a backlit keyboard, it instatntly look like toy for me. And I don't need a toy, I need a tool.

And lets be honest, backlit is nothing new. Who really needs a Breathing/Pulsing or what ever backlit?
Will it make you type faster? Will it make you a better gamer? No unfortunately it will not.

But a full programmable keyboard would! You already have a smart management for backlit like in the video. Keep it that way for the kids, they will be fine. But stop wasting more human resources into this and start thinking about a fully programmable keyboard

I don't mind buying a backlit keyboard, turn that off and replace the caps with better once, as long as it is fully programmable.

[Bramster]

The main Problem with Backlit keyboards is that most of them are made of transculent plastic and painted with thick paint with the letterings spared out. No paint on earth is more durable than the material itself, that means that the painted area will get shiny fast and it will wear of over time!

If I see a backlit keyboard, it instatntly look like toy for me. And I don't need a toy, I need a tool.

And lets be honest, backlit is nothing new. Who really needs a Breathing/Pulsing or what ever backlit?
Will it make you type faster? Will it make you a better gamer? No unfortunately it will not.

But a full programmable keyboard would! You already have a smart management for backlit like in the video. Keep it that way for the kids, they will be fine. But stop wasting more human resources into this and start thinking about a fully programmable keyboard

I don't mind buying a backlit keyboard, turn that off and replace the caps with better once, as long as it is fully programmable.

Hi Cookie,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the deskthority interest in keyboards might not be so much for 'gaming' oriented mechanical keyboards with LED effects and such and more for Topre and programmable keyboards, and aftermarket key caps and such..

This QFR with backlight might then not be so much for DT people but the more gamer/younger audience out there will I think definitely appreciate a LED backlight. Personally I also need my backlight on my QF TK. Its in my bad cave room (dark haha) and a little light to find the keys doesn't hurt (I type blind but the initial find). (And it matches my PC case build nicely , aesthetics also important )

[cookie]

Nothing is more beautiful than blank/dyesub beige PBT caps

I totally got your point and you are right when it comes down to aesthetics.
Do you guys got a good Idea with the caps on it? Or will they be printed as I mentioned in my previous post?

I had doubleshot keycaps in mind, but with transculent plastic for the letters (Imagine the white plastic parts would be transculent):

[Bramster]

Nothing is more beautiful than blank/dyesub beige PBT caps

I totally got your point and you are right when it comes down to aesthetics.
Do you guys got a good Idea with the caps on it? Or will they be printed as I mentioned in my previous post?

I had doubleshot keycaps in mind, but with transculent plastic for the letters (Imagine the white plastic parts would be transculent):

Your question regarding the Topre KB I guess? But I cannot comment at this stage what kind of key cap will be used. Only thing I can say like before it will be a higher quality cap then our cherry line caps.

[Muirium]

Programmability is a big topic.

Some recent commercial keyboards (like the Poker II) have introduced* macro and remap recording / playback using a Program Layer key. Here's Ducky Nordic showing how its done on his ISO version:

No need for software on your computer, just program in alternate characters or entire sequences (macros) straight into the keyboard, which it remembers wherever it goes.

Then there's the stuff we come up with by ourselves. Soarer made a converter which is the main thing hooked up to my computer ever since I got into IBM buckling spring. (It's a sticky thread in the Workshop section of Deskthority for a reason: it is awesome.) This brings all sorts of classic keyboards up to the USB age, with full NKRO for the ride. But it is also highly programmable.

Instead of just one "program layer", with a single key, I have unlimited macros and remaps on all my old keyboards thanks to Soarer's work. I add them whenever I find I'm repeating something, as his converter takes its instructions over USB. It's a different system than the basic one that's in the Ducky Mini, with the downside that it's definitely more technical to understand. But for true power, I wish I could plug USB keyboards into Soarer's converter so I can remap them too! (I'm not the first to request this either…)

Coincidentally, LEDs make a lot of sense on a programmable board. You can use them to show the extra feedback users need when adding new programs. Might as well make good use of these modern LED matrices that make every key addressable. As well as the all important demo mode!

*Reintroduced. Cherry used to make programmable keyboards many years ago, and there may have been others that I don't know about. It seems to have died out until quite recently, though. But it is making a comeback now that keyboards have controllers smart enough to drive a full set of LEDs.

[matt3o]

Your question regarding the Topre KB I guess? But I cannot comment at this stage what kind of key cap will be used. Only thing I can say like before it will be a higher quality cap then our cherry line caps.

this is very very nice to hear... but please don't pad print PBT! It wears off too quickly!