TE Keyboard key switch changes

[michaelr524]

Hi,

I've ordered the Truly Ergonomic keyboard and got notified today that they have made a few changes in it, where the main change is the move from Cherry MX key switches to Kailh key switches.
Would you recommend these switches instead of the Cherry MX ones?

Thanks,
Michael

The Next Generation of Truly Ergonomic Keyboards, Models 227 and 229, replacing Models 207 and 209, have a fresh new look and use the Next Generation of Kailh mechanical switches along enhanced comfort and the simplicity of its design you know and love.



· Manufactured using "The Next Generation of Kailh keyboard switches" replacing "Cherry MX switches", as we have had problems with Cherry in regard to lead-time (up to 12 months) and low quality (double letters and chattering), and as the Next Generation of Kailh switches is built with better quality, lasts longer (75M), reduces the actuation point (1.9mm), feels sturdier, and are more comfortable to use. Fantastic!



· The Next Generation of Truly Ergonomic Keyboards has a new font and symbols printed on the keys that are more readable, make it easier to use, and looks more elegant.



· Have an enhanced logical position of the keys making it easier and faster for the user to adjust, accelerating user acceptance. There are some complaints and bad reviews only because of the location of a small number of keys on older Models 207 and 209, disregarding all other benefits and advantages, so we enhanced the layout making it quicker and easier for users to adjust coming from conventional keyboards.



· We have created a new firmware that include new layouts/languages that can be easily selected via DIP switches:

· Includes ANSI English US, ISO English UK, ISO German DE, ISO French FR, ISO Russian RU, ISO Swedish SE, ISO Spanish ES, ISO Italian IT, JIS Japanese JP, ANSI/ISO Dvorak.

· Additionally to be able to switch between Windows/Linux and OSX via DIP for each of these layouts.

· Additionally to being able to reprogram any and all keys creating a custom layout.

· Each of these new layouts is enhanced to position the keys more comfortably for each specific language.



· You can review The Next Generation of Truly Ergonomic Keyboards at our website.

[Muirium]

In a word: no.

They are unauthorised clones of Cherry's MX switches, whose appeal to keyboard manufacturers is that they're cheaper than the genuine article.

Does that make them bad switches? I don't know. We know very little about them yet, honestly.

[michaelr524]

I like the ergonomic properties of this keyboard, though I never worked with an ergonomic keyboard before. I wonder now what other keyboard of same properties should I buy instead. I like the idea of the non staggered keys and I have not seen many keyboards with non staggered keys.
Ergodox looks really appealing but I'm reluctant at assembling it and I'd rather buy something which just works..

[ماء]

[michaelr524]

What are you trying to say?

[davkol]

Ergodox looks really appealing but I'm reluctant at assembling it and I'd rather buy something which just works..

You can have it assembled, either by czarek/FalbaTech, or anyone who provides community assembly service at Geekhack. Probably a better option than dealing with notoriously slow and shady "Truly Ergonomic" "support".

I wonder, if the key chattering issue disappears with the switch to Kailh, because it was firmware dependent with Cherry MX switches, despite all their blame on Cherry Corp.

[michaelr524]

Yep. That was also my impression from the user comments I've read on the subject.

[Findecanor]

I dunno about the latest generation of Kailh switches' longevity, but the old does not have a very good reputation for quality.
I've tested the Razer-branded Kailh-made switches and they do have less wobble ("sturdier") before press and have sub-mm shorter actuation distance, but that is a very small change in feel and most Cherry MX users can't tell the difference. It is not an objective improvement in any way. Saying that they are "more comfortable" is nothing but marketspeak to justify the change.

In my opionion, the new version of the keyboard should have a reduced price compared to its predecessor because of them not having original switches.

[bhtooefr]

They are unauthorised clones of Cherry's MX switches, whose appeal to keyboard manufacturers is that they're cheaper than the genuine article.

Don't forget the fact that a keyboard manufacturer can actually get them in a timely manner, as stated by Truly Ergonomic themselves (that's not the first time I've heard a 12 month lead time figure, although the first time was from Matias's AMA, so not the most objective source - but I've seen interviews with other companies' reps where they mentioned 6 month lead times as reasons for switching to "their own" (Kailh) switches).

[michaelr524]

Well yes, I care less about their lead time and more about the quality of the keyboard I've payed for

[hoggy]

I'd say vote with your feet.

Their website has no mention of these new switches in the appropriate section.

[hoggy]

Plus plenty of new designs getting close to being released. Axios, keyboard.io, matias, ultimate hacking keyboard to name a few.

[michaelr524]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8479855 this looks interesting, I wonder what's that.

[davkol]

See jacobolus' posts all around Geekhack. He's apparently working with Massdrop.

[ماء]

Website trulyergonomic often down

[Julle]

I can't really comment on Kailh quality based on experience but I think the fact that some (major) manufacturers are moving on to their switches tells a tale: Kailh simply can't afford to produce shit. I'm guessing Razer is their biggest client at the moment, and a client worth keeping as well. Kailh has a very appealing product. Even if some of their marketing is full of crap, they are essentially offering a "superior product at a lower price".

The first batch of clones in the Rapoo boards were undoubtedly of questionable quality, but then again, Rapoo wasn't known for their outstanding quality either back then.

My point is, Cherry is digging its own grave. They are probably unprepared for the exponentially increasing demand for mechanical key switches or just plain idiots. I think we can attribute Cherry's survival thus far to the mechanical keyboard community. I'm not saying Kailh is acting ethically or responsibly, but they are certainly making a smart move. Again, I haven't tried these clones but I have a feeling they will surpass Cherry in both quality and sales in the near future as they've hit the perfect spot in the market.

As for keyswitch longevity: even if Kailh was slightly inferior to the originals, are we seriously expecting the other components of the keyboard to outlast the switches? You can expect lead-free solder joints to deteriorate relatively fast, you might have questionable diodes and controllers manufactured by who-knows-whom, even the PCBs can be very shoddy...

[Muirium]

Don't forget the Cherry is actually just a subsidiary of ZDF these days, so keyboards are a small part of their business now. I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if they cease production of MX switches in response to this. It's a sideline, and if it's not earning its keep, then away it goes. Pity. As right now they are one of the few survivors from the golden age before cheap keyboards. Picture the irony that increased competition in mechanical keyboards is what finally does them in!

[bhtooefr]

It's also worth noting that the patents have all expired on Cherry MX switches. I'd argue that it's completely ethical to clone the crap out of an old design like that, and Kailh switches didn't even become popular until a decade after the patents expired. If Cherry wanted to remain competitive while having a price premium, they should have continued innovating (and, I'm sorry, MX RGB doesn't count).

Now, how a lot of keyboard manufacturers are marketing the Kailh switches, and pricing their Kailh-based boards in comparison to their Cherry-based boards... that, I take issue with.

[CeeSA]

The clone switches become only more popular because of the reborn of the mechanical keyboard market.
Otherwise they would even not exist.

Generally I hate clones. I would like to have more different mechanical switches.

[Julle]

Generally I hate clones. I would like to have more different mechanical switches.

More mechanical switches... yes please. But with new switches come new problems. For instance, I'm really tempted to try the Romer-G switch. The problem is that with the switch you get a shitty, awful, gaudy, and huge piece of shit of a keyboard and some even shittier keycaps which I'll probably never be able to replace.

The same thing with the Matias switches. There is little to no possibility for customization with different keycaps, custom PCBs, plates etc.

Now, how a lot of keyboard manufacturers are marketing the Kailh switches, and pricing their Kailh-based boards in comparison to their Cherry-based boards... that, I take issue with.

As far as I'm aware, some of the Chinese/Taiwanese keyboard manufacturers are actually selling their Kaihl boards at a lower price than their Cherry counterparts. As for Razer.... well...

[bhtooefr]

I also like more switches, but it's worth noting that the clones can help reduce the entry price to the market, and therefore enlarge the market. And, if/when that board fails, then they decide to get something nicer, which funds the development of new switches and keyboards.

Also, remember, Matias is a clone. (Granted, the original (if you can consider SKBM an original, it itself was a cost-reduced SKCM) had gone out of production (and Matias was the only reason they were still in production), and all the other clones sucked.)

[nisilhum]

at least more switch with compatible mainstream market

[Azteca]

Your iPhone is made in China.

Audi is a clone of their German siblings, and was very low quality in the 90's.

Matias switches are clones of ALPS switches.

All current PCs are clones of IBM.

Only uninformed fools retreat when they see clones.

IMO, some clones are much better than the originals.


“German engineering” - a great misconception about reliability:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012 ... ering.html


Back to subject, Kailh switches are better than Cherry - same or better quality, short lead-time, less expensive (not cheap).

Kailh switches are not Cherry MX clones, they are MX-Compatible: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56406.0

Read their FAQ about why they use Kailh switches:
https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/an ... eyswitches

TrulyErgonomic is showing the switch brand name in your face: look at the images and read their website:
"Brand name: Kailh Next Generation"
https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/be ... l-keyboard


The TrulyErgonomic is not about Cherry MX, it's about ergonomics.

Cherry MX is not an ergonomic benefit per se; mechanical switches are, no matter the brand name on the plastic.

If you are looking for an ergonomic board, then only look at the ergonomic benefits of the board, not at where one part of the product is made. Otherwise you will be using no products at all:
http://financesonline.com/how-iphone-is-made/


I use and recommend the TEK for its ergo benefits, running away just due to a new switch nobody here has really used is not smart.

[davkol]

snip

You, dude, are a hypocrite. I remember your rant about Kinesis and Maltron very well.

[michaelr524]

I use and recommend the TEK for its ergo benefits, running away just due to a new switch nobody here has really used is not smart.

Obviously being smart is about buying a keyboard with switches nobody here has really used.

[Muirium]

What could possibly go wrong?

[davkol]

How could you link TV Tropes without a warning? You monster!

[Muirium]

Sssh! I'm reading about all the shades of genre savvinness…

[Azteca]

snip

You, dude, are a hypocrite. I remember your rant about Kinesis and Maltron very well.

Get your facts together; the rant was about the "ErgoDox community" claiming they conceived their design whereas they only copied Maltron. The Kinesis being a Matron’s "clone" was only a side note.

Based on wrong assumptions from this post, then the Kinesis and ErgoDox are Matron’s "Clones" and therefore nobody should buy them.


You are confusing even yourselves; just because you are calling a switch a clone does not make it so.

Kailh are MX-Compatible:
"While not a Cherry-branded MX switch, it is pin and dimension compatible with keycaps, PCBs, and plates designed for Cherry-brand MX switches."

A Clone by definition must be identical in every way. I applaud Kailh for making something better. Cherry MX is a 30-year-old-design with lower tolerances and more defects due to high demand.

As well, Cherry MX can be considered clones of IBM Buckling Springs, as Cherry designed their MX switches to compete against BS, so based on this post assumptions nobody should be using Cherry MX as they are also clones.


If you follow comments like “don’t buy _______ product because nobody here has really used it”, then nobody would be buying anything as someone has to be first to buy a new product to test it; no iMac/iPhone/iPads, no Tablets, no ErgoDox, no Matias switches, no new Kailh/Razer switches.


Thermaltake offers a 5-year guarantee on their Poseidon Mechanical Keyboard with Kailh Blue switches; it sends a strong good message about Kailh switches quality.

Razer is betting its entire mechanical switch products on Kailh, so it is fair to assume they did their homework and they know Kailh switches are reliable.

[chzel]

Spoiler:

Get your facts together; the rant was about the "ErgoDox community" claiming they conceived their design whereas they only copied Maltron. The Kinesis being a Matron’s "clone" was only a side note.

Based on wrong assumptions from this post, then the Kinesis and ErgoDox are Matron’s "Clones" and therefore nobody should buy them.


You are confusing even yourselves; just because you are calling a switch a clone does not make it so.

Kailh are MX-Compatible:
"While not a Cherry-branded MX switch, it is pin and dimension compatible with keycaps, PCBs, and plates designed for Cherry-brand MX switches."

A Clone by definition must be identical in every way. I applaud Kailh for making something better. Cherry MX is a 30-year-old-design with lower tolerances and more defects due to high demand.

As well, Cherry MX can be considered clones of IBM Buckling Springs, as Cherry designed their MX switches to compete against BS, so based on this post assumptions nobody should be using Cherry MX as they are also clones.

Well, no.
Ergodox was perhaps heavily influenced by the Maltron and/or Kinesis, but it is an entirely independent development.
Cherry developed a switch designed to have a feeling similar to BS. Developed, not copied.

The Chinese "Cherry MX compatible" came around just as the patent expired, and they copied Cherry's exact design and changed it a tiny little bit to avoid being called clones. Better manufacturing process perhaps, I have no opinion on that, a clone nonetheless.

Thermaltake offers a 5-year guarantee on their Poseidon Mechanical Keyboard with Kailh Blue switches; it sends a strong good message about Kailh switches quality.

Razer is betting its entire mechanical switch products on Kailh, so it is fair to assume they did their homework and they know Kailh switches are reliable.

Or cheap enough to replace for the few that will bother to RMA them after 3 or 4 or 5 years.
If we assume that the switches are capable of 50M actuations, that is about 27000 actuations per switch per day to wear them out in 5 years.
Considering these are mostly "gaming" keyboards, many owners will have bought something newer long before that.