Better Red than Dead? Impressions of a Kul ES-87 w/ mx Reds

[Hypersphere]

Having tried a large array of keyboard switches, I had almost given up on Cherry mx altogether. Before today, I had tried blues, greens, browns, and clears, (as well as vintage blacks in a Wyse terminal board not connected to a computer).

Blues sounded and felt like typing on rice crispies. Greens were much the same, but heavier. Browns and clears felt like there was sand in the works. Vintage blacks were agreeably smooth but a bit heavy, and I wanted some tactile feedback.

This left contemporary blacks and reds. I was concerned that blacks would be a mite ponderous and that reds would be too light, but after squishing each of these in a switch tester, I opted to give reds a go. I was banking on the tactile feedback coming from bottoming out.

Today the reds arrived, installed in a Kul ES-87.

Kul_red.png (933.88 KiB) Viewed 6689 times

http://www.xtremehardware.com/gaming/ta ... 7/?start=3

The Kul keyboard itself has a lot to like. It is a solid TKL with some intelligent DIP switch options, such as Win/Mac, Caps/Ctrl, Fn/Menu, and even Backslash/Backspace -- all with extra keycaps to match. And instead of a Win key, there is a generic diamond; it is nice to know that not everyone has been bought by M$.

In the negative column, the Kul is fitted with thin ABS keycaps with infilled laser legends; these are begging to be swapped with some nice dye-sub PBT caps.

When I started typing, I found that reds were not as overly light as I had feared. And because I tend to bottom out with just about any switch, I got a solid clunk from each keycap hitting the plate -- until, that is, it came to the stabilized keys (Backspace, Enter, Left Shift, Right Shift, and Spacebar). The stabilized keys felt decidedly mushy, owing to the Cherry mx stabilizers. It seems that with Cherry mx you have to contend with Costar rattle or Cherry mush on the stabilized keys. I had not noticed this so much with tactile or tactile/clicky switches, but with reds, the difference between a regular key hitting bottom and the stabilized keys was obvious and annoying.

The next thing I noticed was the scratchiness. This is particularly evident when slowly pressing a key -- it seems to arise from a combination of the plunger and spring rubbing against the switch housing. This sensation of scratchiness is not noticeable with buckling spring or Topre switches. It is also not noticeable on my old Wyse board with vintage blacks. I had seen numerous posts about this from others, and I can now vouch for it myself. Perhaps this could be alleviated by taking the switches apart and doing a proper lube job, but this seems like more trouble than it's worth.

There is also a discernible wobble to the keys arising from the tolerance between the plunger and switch housing. This is alleviated in part by installing keycaps with a lower profile.

Having read many complaints about the undue lightness of mx reds, I did not see as many accidental presses as I had anticipated, except with the spacebar. For me at least, this keyboard needs a heavier switch under the spacebar, perhaps with some tactility as well.

Overall, my impression of the Kul ES-87 with Cherry mx reds is somewhat positive, and not as negative as I had feared. I am somewhat surprised to find reds more or less tolerable, and I think it would be worth experimenting with different keycaps and O-rings to fine tune the experience.

By the way, after trying a few caps from various sets, some of the best I have encountered are the PBT sets from Leopold -- these are available on eBay at reasonable prices. And I think that O-rings might even out the disparities in sound and feel between the regular and stabilized keys.

While I don't see any Cherry mx switch replacing my current favorites (IBM Model F capacitive buckling springs and Topre 55g switches), if I had to choose a switch from the Cherry line, it would be red. Whereas I sold my first Kul (with mx clears) shortly after receiving it, I think I may keep the Kul with reds around for a while.

This relatively positive experience with reds and my overall liking for somewhat heavier switches has me wondering about contemporary blacks or vintage blacks in a contemporary board. . . .

[chzel]

Nice review, I find reds too light, I prefer blacks.

The stabilized keys felt decidedly mushy, owing to the Cherry mx stabilizers. It seems that with Cherry mx you have to contend with Costar rattle or Cherry mush on the stabilized keys. I had not noticed this so much with tactile or tactile/clicky switches, but with reds, the difference between a regular key hitting bottom and the stabilized keys was obvious and annoying.

If you would bother, clipping the "legs" off the Cherry stabs makes them perfect. Pure solid bottoming out.

[seebart]

well I´m a step behind you, I have tried MX Blacks,blues, browns and clears.Browns are my favorite Cherry MX switch so far. I´ll have to give red MX`s a try sometime.Good summary,thanks.

[Hypersphere]

Nice review, I find reds too light, I prefer blacks.

The stabilized keys felt decidedly mushy, owing to the Cherry mx stabilizers. It seems that with Cherry mx you have to contend with Costar rattle or Cherry mush on the stabilized keys. I had not noticed this so much with tactile or tactile/clicky switches, but with reds, the difference between a regular key hitting bottom and the stabilized keys was obvious and annoying.

If you would bother, clipping the "legs" off the Cherry stabs makes them perfect. Pure solid bottoming out.

Could you post some pics of this surgery, or provide a link?

[Nuum]

There you go:

[chzel]

Yeap, exactly that, but I do it with a razor!Thanks Nuum

[Hypersphere]

well I´m a step behind you, I have tried MX Blacks,blues, browns and clears.Browns are my favorite Cherry MX switch so far. I´ll have to give red MX`s a try sometime.Good summary,thanks.

Actually, I think I am torn between reds and browns, although I now understand why some people refer to browns as "dirty reds". It's as if in an effort to provide tactility, Cherry has merely grafted a bump onto the stem. Likewise, with clicky switches like blues and greens, it seems that the click has been an add-on that has nothing to do with the switching mechanism, but merely an effort to provide aural feedback.

Update: I have replaced the stock ABS caps with a thick dye-sub PBT set from geek_feng along with Buna 50A-R O-rings. The caps look good and the surfaces have an agreeably dry feel, but although the O-rings have evened out the sound and feel of the switches, I am not sure I like it. The key travel is of course reduced, and although the switches are tolerable, they are no match for the quality of IBM capacitive or membrane buckling springs or Topres. Nevertheless, I may give it a few days to see how I like the switches after adapting to them.

The Kul ES-87 board itself is a good basic TKL with a few distinguishing features, although I have noticed some apparent anomalies in the surface finish -- some patches of gray mottling on the black that do not appear to be part of the intended finish. I tried swabbing the case with 70% (v/v) isopropyl alcohol, but the gray mottling persists. However, this is not very noticeable.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The stabilized keys felt decidedly mushy, owing to the Cherry mx stabilizers. It seems that with Cherry mx you have to contend with Costar rattle or Cherry mush on the stabilized keys. I had not noticed this so much with tactile or tactile/clicky switches, but with reds, the difference between a regular key hitting bottom and the stabilized keys was obvious and annoying.

I did notice this for a while on my Poker II, but it was so much better than the clang of "Costar"¹ stabilisers.

These days I never notice at all. I just notice that my keyboard sounds good.

The next thing I noticed was the scratchiness. This is particularly evident when slowly pressing a key -- it seems to arise from a combination of the plunger and spring rubbing against the switch housing.

"Doctor Doctor! When I press a Cherry MX switch really slowly, it scratches!"
"Well, don't do that then!"

¹ Costar don't even make keyboards — why does everyone think they make stabilisers? Does anyone have evidence that they designed that type of stabiliser?

[chzel]

Costar don't even make keyboards — why does everyone think they make stabilisers? Does anyone have evidence that they designed that type of stabiliser?

I'm not sure if joking?
I am pretty sure they do make keyboards!

[Hypersphere]

@Daniel Beardsmore: Point well taken about "Doctor...."

Interesting point about the origins of stabilizers. Although some sources say that they manufacture keyboards under various brand names and that these keyboards have a certain type of stabilizer that has come to be called a Costar stabilizer, I have not seen direct evidence that they produce these stabilizers.

Costar's web site indicates that one of their product lines is keyboards:
http://www.costar.com.tw/index.php?opti ... 65&lang=en

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't know how much manufacturing capacity Costar actually has — from what I understand, they outsource the manufacturing to other companies and just handle the design. (It's all secret, and this secrecy is why Matias stopped using them and went directly to actual manufacturers.) Even the Matias switches don't come from one company; the one we know of—Gaote—is only known to do the final assembly. Xiang Min for example don't make the whole XM switch; they're a plastics company, and the metal parts appear to come from another supplier, who also supply the same parts to Himake (not unless they work together, and neither one admitted to that).

Manufacturing is ridiculously complicated. Take the SIIG MiniTouch. The actual keyboard is a Monterey K110 (rebadged old stock), but there were two base versions of the K110, one from China and one from Taiwan, with different switches. What was that all about? (It would be nice to chart all the known combinations of switches and keycaps together with manufacturing dates, to get some idea of what happened there.)

Some companies do have confirmed facilities of their own. Cherry for example, manufacture the switches in-house; I don't know whether any of their production is outsourced. NMB also had (and presumably still do have) their own facilities in Thailand. Alps had their own production but a lot of switches clearly came from their affiliated companies such as Gold Star Alps and Forward (all the wobbly-looking ones).

Maybe Costar really do have a stabiliser production line from which they supply all the world's mechanical non-Cherry stabilisers. I would be surprised though.

[Hypersphere]

Keyboards represent a microcosm of modern manufacturing, which has indeed become quite complicated. The various components of an automobile or airplane are sources from all sorts of places, and even the final assembly of a given brand or car or plane might be done in different countries or various locations within a country.

In the end, it's all starstuff!

Back to keyboards -- after spending some hours today typing on the Kul with mx reds, I just now switched to my RF 87ub with 55g Topres. What a difference! (The RF wins, by a very comfortable margin).

I think I will be selling the Kul fairly soon. As much as I want to like Cherry mx switches, I really just don't. I've accumulated quite a few sets of Cherry mx keycaps -- some harvested from Cherry, Dolch, and Wyse keyboards, others bought new. I think all these will be going up for sale as well.

[seebart]

It's as if in an effort to provide tactility, Cherry has merely grafted a bump onto the stem. Likewise, with clicky switches like blues and greens, it seems that the click has been an add-on that has nothing to do with the switching mechanism, but merely an effort to provide aural feedback.

That is an excellent point and a whole other topic. I wonder what Cherry would reply to that. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Again it´s most certainly also linked to the complex production process.

after spending some hours today typing on the Kul with mx reds, I just now switched to my RF 87ub with 55g Topres. What a difference! (The RF wins, by a very comfortable margin).

for some reason that makes me smile, and I´m not Topre inclined.

[Muirium]

Hyper and I share that opinion: the better clicky switch is the one that is inherently clicky, and the better tactile switch is the one that is inherently tactile. Buckling spring will always click, just as Topre will always swing through its S shaped force curve. Beamspring, meanwhile, has both characteristics; and is my favourite of the lot. Both of you ought to go explore it! Now I've got a beamspring board in good health again I'm enjoying the crazy old beast!

That said, MX is inherently linear, so if you don't like blacks and reds after exploring all the others, game over. I'm not giving up on MX myself quite yet as it's still the epicentre of custom keyboard building. I've gathered a decent supply of vintage blacks, and modern blues and clears, plus an order of 50g springs for going into projects of my own design. But I wouldn't recommend the effort people do to mod their stock keyboards. The comparision between an MX TKL and a Realforce is too direct to win. Instead, MX switches are better used to make the things you just can't find pre-built.

Selling off what you don't need is always a good idea. Keyboard karma builds by flow. But keep a hold of your favourite MX caps, Hyper. They aren't always doomed to sit on MX switches. The NovaTouch was just a first volley of what's to come. I have my fingers crossed for Topre going MX mount native itself. And I'm signed up for testing Mr. Interface's Alps adapters and Matteo's for buckling springs. Things are looking up.

[seebart]

Beamspring, meanwhile, has both characteristics; and is my favourite of the lot. Both of you ought to go explore it!

easier said than done! I anticipate my Beamspring search to take longer than my SSK search (which I had given up on but was wrong to do so). But I´m sure there are more out there waiting to be found. I am content with Capacitive Buckling Spring for now, my favorite.

[Muirium]

True. I hunted for a year (ever since I first saw Xwhatsit's work and then tried a Great White beamspring in a museum) with a few near misses but no catch until, with your help, I grabbed one with Halvar from the dodgy rust guy some months ago; and soon after that another one from Cindy, which still waits for me at my brother's. If I get both up (which I expect should be easier on the second) and if I can actually get both here without great expense, then you'll hear from me! These are boards for using.

Speaking of which: Hyper got a beamspring before I did. Consider yourself nagged, my man! These switches really are "Model F meets Topre".

[Hypersphere]

Yes, one of these days I must find time to do the restoration and conversion work on my beam springs. Unfortunately, my day job is demanding most of my time of late. In addition, cold weather is starting, and I need warm temperatures to do the messy work of sanding and painting out in the unheated garage. Alas, the beam springs might have to wait for next spring/summer.

At least I am starting to sell off keyboards I have no intention of using or restoring.

Per Mu's advice, I may keep my Cherry-compatible keycaps for a while in case we see more Topre switches with mx stems and/or IBM buckling spring stems that can accept Cherry mx caps. Indeed, I still have some orders of mx caps yet to arrive from Imsto and Massdrop (Granite set).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Likewise, with clicky switches like blues and greens, it seems that the click has been an add-on that has nothing to do with the switching mechanism, but merely an effort to provide aural feedback.

If you read the relevant patent, there is no mention of sound that I could find. The purpose of the sliding collar is to provide hysteresis (AKA "movement differential"). I honestly don't know whether the click sound was intentional or not; there are also Cherry data sheets that refer only to the movement differential and not the sound. It may be that MX white was created to reduce the sound inherent in their hysteresis design, or it may be that the click sound was intentional.

The patent was filed in 1983, which implies that clicky MX switches were around at the start. However, MX white is suggested to go back as far as 1987, and blues don't seem to go back to the origin of MX switches. We will only get a better idea of the history of MX switches if and when we find Cherry catalogues from 1983 upwards.

[jacobolus]

The only MX switches I can imagine myself wanting to use for substantial amounts of time are lubricated linear MX switches (ideally the “vintage” variety), with after-market springs swapped in (62g? 65g? or maybe an MX clear’s springs).

I got to try nuclearsandwich’s 456GT keyboard (ridiculously heavy Korean custom keyboard, made of a solid block of CNC-cut aluminum, with additional brass weights in the base), which had very lubed MX black switches with lighter springs, and it was very nice. I’m sure the very solid case makes an improvement in switch sound/feel compared to a plastic housing.

Though I still think I might prefer lubed green Alps or lubed white space invaders.

[Hypersphere]

Returning to the Kul keyboard today after using my HHKB Pro 2 at work, I am finally ready to close the door on Cherry mx switches as far as I am concerned. I really wanted to find a Cherry switch that I could like, but, alas, it is not to be.

Mu hit the nail on the head by reminding us that all Cherry mx switches are inherently linear. Despite grafting a tactile bump onto the slider for their tactile or tactile/clicky varieties, the spring has nowhere to go except to continue being compressed. In contrast, the rubber dome of a Topre and the buckling spring of an IBM Model M or F undergo a relatively sudden collapse during the actuation phase of the actuation-reset cycle. Herein lies the main mechanistic difference between Cherry mx on the one hand and Topre or IBM buckling spring switches on the other hand. The mechanism inherent in Topre or IBM buckling springs provides the tactile feel that I appreciate in these switches.

It is actually a relief to know what I don't like and to be able to rule out a rather large segment of keyboards for consideration. I've also established that I definitely do like Topres and IBM buckling springs (with a preference for F over M, but not ruling out the M variety). In addition, from my brief experimentation with IBM beam springs, I know I will like these keyboards, and they are on my "to do" list for restorations/conversions.

This still leaves a middle ground of switch types that I like much better than Cherry mx but not as much as Topre, IBM buckling spring, and IBM beam spring. These include various Alps -- such as Monterey blue, orange Alps, and Matias tactile/clicky -- and NMB Hi-Tek black and white space invaders.

[Madhias]

In this thread one can learn a lot about Cherry switches! I do not share all switch flavors here, but very wise words Muirium and Hypersphere.

In general i do like the stronger/harder switches like Greens, Clears, Whites, but never really liked linear switches. But when i got my first Model M, i instantly replaced a keyboard with Whites & Greens with the Model M. The click and the feel is much better than the so called equivalent MX Green. The click on Cherry switches is for me a little bit annoying, because of the high pitched sound.

The great thing about Cherry switches is the customization of everything: caps, plates, cases, cables, everything. So i will never give up or loose interest in Cherry switches, even when i only use 2 IBM Model M keyboards since 2 or 3 months now - without thinking of replacing them in the near future!

[Muirium]

Yup. MX has a great ecosystem. As much as I prefer both Topre and IBM, neither of them are at all easy to work with when building custom boards, and your choices are bleak indeed when hunting for caps and stabs and anything else to mod and tinker. MX is a platform as much as it is a decent little family of mechanical switches.

[Hypersphere]

Because of the many choices of beautiful keycaps, I do wish I liked Cherry mx switches. They are all, in fact, intrinsically linear, even if some contain a bump or a bump plus click.

Customizations are relatively limited on IBM buckling spring or Topre boards, but the switches and available keycaps are so good, I don't feel as compelled to change things as I do on a Cherry mx board.

It will be interesting to see if CM will come out with a much-improved second generation of Topre/mx hybrids and/or if other companies might introduce their own version of such switches.