Silenced vs Standard Topre Switch Keyboards

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Hypersphere

07 Nov 2014, 15:56

I really like the form factor, layout, appearance, and feel of my HHKB Pro 2. However, although I like the downstroke "thock", I don't like the return stroke "clack". Therefore, for some time I have been considering either some sort of silencing mod or buying a Type-S.

Some people report being very satisfied with various silencing mods, such as dental bands or foam pads, but I had seen enough negative posts to discourage me from this approach. In addition, I had read that the Type-S sliders were different from standard sliders. On balance, I decided to go for a Type-S.

Today my Type-S arrived. After typing a bit, my first thought was a line from the Edgar Allen Poe story, "The Tell-Tale Heart":

"... there came to my ears a low, dull, quick sound, such as a watch makes when enveloped in cotton."

Typing on the Type-S also felt somewhat scratchy at first, or as if the sliders were wrapped in tissue paper; however, after typing a while, I am getting accustomed to the new sensation.

The downstroke sounds are still there and, as advertised, the upstroke "clack" is attenuated. If you depress a key and let up suddenly, taking your finger away, you will still get a clack, but it is muffled. The high-frequency click component of the clack is gone. Spacebar noise is still prominent, but it seems to be at a lower frequency. Just as on a standard HHKB, each key has a personality of its own. For example, the Left Shift has a distinctly hollow sound on the standard model as well as on the Type-S.

Overall, I prefer the sound of the Type-S to the standard model. When typing at speed, the standard HHKB sounds like a jumble of rattles, arising mostly from the upstroke clacking. With the Type-S, the pure thock comes through, a clopping sound like horse hooves on clay. Although the price seems high for a Type-S, considering the time and relative invasiveness of DIY procedures, I think getting a ready-made Type-S is worth the extra cost.

Going back to my RF 87ub 55g, although it suffers a bit from upstroke clack, this is not nearly as pronounced as it is in the standard HHKB. One problem with silenced RFs is that the commercial version is available only with variable weighting. To get a uniform 45g or 55g would entail transplanting domes into a silenced RF or doing a silencing mod of some sort on a uniformly weighted RF. Nevertheless, I am still considering silencing possibilities for the RF.

User avatar
Khers

07 Nov 2014, 16:21

Nice writeup on an interesting subject. I was contemplating getting a Type-S myself, when I ordered an HHKB some time ago. In the end I decided to go for the standard one, partly due to price and partly due to me wanting a black one. I have still to receive it though, but I think I will get it at the beginning of next week.

Reading your experiences though makes me wonder whether I should have gone for the Type-S anyway. Recently I've even started warming to the white color. I want to be able to use it in an office environment where my office mate is going nuts over the noise of my SSK at the moment :shock: (he didn't like my MX Brown either though), and maybe the Type-S would have been a better fit...

User avatar
Hypersphere

07 Nov 2014, 17:33

@Khers: Thanks. I put off getting the Type-S for a long time. Like you, I prefer the black case, and the price seemed too high to justify. The Type-S is available only in white, but I have seen posts indicating that it is possible to transfer the sliders from a Type-S into the switch housings on a standard HHKB, such as one with a black case. Although I am not so sure I want to dismantle two HHKBs and attempt to swap sliders, when I saw the recent price drop on all HHKB models from EK, I decided to go for it. I will either learn to like the white model for the sake of built-in silencing or someday attempt the surgery.

The price differential between standard and silenced versions of Realforce 87u keyboards seems reasonable, and I think someday I will get a silenced model and transfer 55g or 45g domes into it. A dome swap seems significantly easier to do than a slider swap.

Perhaps you can persuade your office mate to start using a mechanical keyboard; then you can make all the noise you like!

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2014, 18:30

The absence of the black variant silenced HHKB is the best feature of the Type-S. Only real HHKBs allowed!

So the plate that the sliders are mounted in (the barrel plate in IBM parlance) is permanently attached to the outer case in an HHKB is it? The only Topre I've taken apart is the more Realforce like NovaTouch, and that plate is a internal chassis, which the outer shell attaches to and so can be swapped.

User avatar
Hypersphere

07 Nov 2014, 20:41

Muirium wrote: The absence of the black variant silenced HHKB is the best feature of the Type-S. Only real HHKBs allowed!

So the plate that the sliders are mounted in (the barrel plate in IBM parlance) is permanently attached to the outer case in an HHKB is it? The only Topre I've taken apart is the more Realforce like NovaTouch, and that plate is a internal chassis, which the outer shell attaches to and so can be swapped.
Yes, we know of your view that the only true HHKB is the white model. However, I can assure you that the black model is just as real. I very much prefer the look of the black model, especially when adorned with white or blue alphanumeric keys, leaving the mods and spacebar black.

The same with RFs. I prefer the black models, but with blue or white alphanumeric and arrow keys, leaving the others black. In particular, I like the Right Control to be black, because I have remapped the RFs to the HHKB layout, and Right Control = Fn. There is no Fn key available in the same size as Right Control, so it is better to have it black. Blank black is even better (I do agree with you that the black on black or black on dark gray lettered sets are a bit ridiculous). Luckily, it is still possible to buy blank sets for the HHKB (whose keys fit the RF) in either white/light gray or black.

I am still unclear about the ability to swap sliders in HHKBs or RFs, but dome swaps are certainly possible in either keyboard. At some point, I will probably get a silenced RF (in black, of course) and do a dome swap to yield a uniformly weighted silenced RF 87ub.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2014, 21:22

Not just a view, but the truth. The HHKB that Prof. Wada was involved with was white. The black variant is a later development by PFU without his oversight, like the risible HHKB Lite. I also happen to think black is a change for the worse, but the original was white alone.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Nov 2014, 21:27

I assume you believe that the Ford Motor Company should still only be selling black cars, right?

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Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2014, 21:56

No, white cars!

User avatar
Madhias
BS TORPE

07 Nov 2014, 21:59

Interesting reading! I bought yesterday a Realforce 87U from a member here, and always wanted the beige variant, and not the black one. I also prefer the classic color theme! I chose the 55g version (by the way, i read your 55g vs 45g thread over GeekHack, Hypersphere), and am really looking forward to get the keyboard. I quite liked the variable Realforce board from the Realforce Tour i participated, but i thought the switches could be a little bit heavier. I also thought when i used this test keyboard that i have to get a Topre. Someday i have to test a silenced version for sure!

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Nov 2014, 22:05

Muirium wrote: No, white cars!
So HHKBs should be black then?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2014, 22:18

No, white HHKBs.

Discern deeply, there is a pattern here!

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Nov 2014, 23:26

Ah, but white is what Professor Wada chose, and black is a deviation.

Therefore, white Ford cars are a deviation from Henry Ford's choice.

A colleague has my Apple keyboard and whatever she puts on her hands stains it yellow fast. The flip side is that back shows up dust very readily. We need to compromise on grey!

User avatar
scottc

07 Nov 2014, 23:31

Image

I agree.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2014, 23:58

Hmm. IBM's industrials are a nice step up from beige, that's true. But they are also a great improvement on HHKB black! The only black keyboards I'm particularly taken by are mods. Snoopy's black Kishsaver, and Quantalume's beamspring.

Henry Ford, meanwhile, was antisemitic asshat. His dictatorial attitude towards car colours gives dictatorial design decisions a bad name.

User avatar
Hypersphere

07 Nov 2014, 23:59

@Muirium: Do you think that changing the white case to black on the HHKB Pro 2 changes the functionality of the keyboard, as, for example, changing from the HHKB Pro 2 to the HHKB Lite or to the JP version with arrow and Kana keys, etc.?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

08 Nov 2014, 00:01

Nope. This is a facile argument about cosmetic differences! Don't read any more into it.

Well, besides legend legibility. Topre's black on black caps are a farce.

User avatar
Hypersphere

08 Nov 2014, 00:10

Muirium wrote: Nope. This is a facile argument about cosmetic differences! Don't read any more into it.

Well, besides legend legibility. Topre's black on black caps are a farce.
I agree about the black on black (or dark gray, as they claim) caps. Better to install blanks, which is possible on the HHKB Pro 2, but there seem to be no currently available blank keycap sets for Realforce.

User avatar
Hypersphere

08 Nov 2014, 00:12

Muirium wrote: No, white cars!
In my part of the world, white cars are inevitably driven by octagenarian men wearing hats, and they always drive a few mph under the speed limit, driving everyone behind them crazy.

User avatar
Khers

27 Nov 2014, 20:39

I just got my first keyboard with silenced Topres, a Realforce 87us. I haven't typed a lot on it yet but, while I enjoy the feeling of the switches and find them rather identical to the non-silenced Topres in my HHKB, I don't like the sound of the stabilized keys at all. It may be due to the lack of sound from the other keys, but to my ears the stabilized keys have a scratchiness to them that I have not found on the HHKB. Also, the stabilized keys don't feel anywhere near as nice, to my fingers at least, as the non-stabilized ones. Once again I feel some scratchiness.

Is there any good way to lube stabilized topre switches?

User avatar
Muirium
µ

27 Nov 2014, 22:05

I think the idea is to pop a little grease on the stabs where they attach. Never done it, myself, though. Hopefully 002 or someone else experienced in the way of Topre will chime in.

My own experience with a borrowed Realforce and HHKB is just the same as yours, by the way. The HHKB impressed me more than its big daddy, in sound and feel and stabs as well as looks and layout.

User avatar
Hypersphere

27 Nov 2014, 22:17

The silent version of RF keyboards are no longer listed on the EK site. I don't know if this means they are no longer being produced by Topre or if it reflects some other issue with the EK outlet for Topre products in the US.

I have tried the standard and Type-S HHKB Pro 2, and overall, I prefer the sound and feel of the standard version.

Regarding RF, I have tried the RF 87u 45 and RF 87u 55g. Both of the these are quieter than my HHKB Pro 2 (especially so with the 55g RF), and so I feel no compelling need to try the silent version of the RF. In addition, because the silent RF is/was only available with variable weights of switches (which I don't think I would like), I am content with my RF 87ub 55g.

While I like the form factor and layout of the HHKB Pro 2, I prefer the sound and feel of the RF 87ub 55g.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

27 Nov 2014, 22:21

Once again: EK ≠ Topre. (Or Filco or Leopold for that matter!)

Either things are getting harder for Americans wanting to buy Topre boards (welcome to the club, it's horrible!) or might be about to become better for all of us, if Topre's gotten a better distributor lined up.

I seriously hope it's the latter.

User avatar
Khers

27 Nov 2014, 22:29

I also definitely hope for the latter. The only Topre board available, if you don't want to sell a kidney to keyboard co, is the NovaTouch. Though I'm afraid that even if Topre jumped on the CM distribution band wagon, HHKB's would still be unavailable, unfortunately, due to the lack of a CE-mark.

I was a little bit worried that the ergo-weighting would put me off the silenced Realforce, but thus far, I haven't really found it to be an issue. While I can definitely sense the difference when pressing the keys one by one, it's a lot more difficult to sense when typing.

Will try to lube the stabs to see if I can learn to like my silenced Realforce. My girlfriend likes it a lot though. Mainly because it's silent...

User avatar
Hypersphere

27 Nov 2014, 22:31

Muirium wrote: Once again: EK ≠ Topre. (Or Filco or Leopold for that matter!)

Either things are getting harder for Americans wanting to buy Topre boards (welcome to the club, it's horrible!) or might be about to become better for all of us, if Topre's gotten a better distributor lined up.

I seriously hope it's the latter.
Yes, I know that EK does not equal Topre. On this side of the pond, we have become all too dependent on EK for our Topre needs. It will be interesting to see what transpires. I hope that a good Topre outlet opens up for those in the UK and continental Europe.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

27 Nov 2014, 22:36

@Khers: Ergo weighting is a fine idea. If the 55g Realforce didn't exist, and was so widely acclaimed, I'd likely favour a variable model myself… well, if the HHKB didn't also exist!

You're right about the HHKB and the CE mark: it won't go in sale in Europe until it gets past that hurdle. I'm hoping for the HHKB Pro 3 to be properly certified, and available in Bluetooth, but that's PFU/Topre's business and just my pipe-dream.

Back in the real world, there are signs that Topre is opening up to new distributors. The CM collaboration with NovaTouch makes them an obvious choice, with worldwide reach well beyond Topre's current scale. But Ducky Nordic even managed to get a little batch of custom Realforces out of Topre by bumping into them at a tradeshow in Taipei a while ago, a handful of which are on sale here:

https://www.teraset.net/ducky.php#7

EK isn't the end of Topre. But we could be about to hit a rough patch as much as interesting times.

User avatar
ماء

28 Nov 2014, 08:11

yup, black doff like thinkpad interisting!

User avatar
Khers

30 Nov 2014, 17:51

@Mu: A BT HHKB Pro 3 with CE mark and distributed via CM, now that would be awesome! Even one out of three would be cool.

Having a slow Sunday and decided to try my hand at lubing my Realforce. I'm totally useless at taking photos while in the midst of something, so I got zero shots for you unfortunately. While I was at it I figured I might just as well lube the sliders as well. I had some of EK Mechlube 1 and 2 at hand, so that was what I used. A tiny amount of the lower viscosity for the sliders and a splash of the higher viscosity for the stabilizers. I can't say that I feel any huge difference on the sliders, since the keyboard is new, I wasn't expecting much either. The stabilizers on the other hand have lost much of the scratchiness that I could previously feel.

Previously, the key that annoyed me the most was backspace and while it still has a different sound than the other keys, at least the scratchiness has gone. What I don't understand is the fact that backspace has a different sound signature to it. It's much louder than any of the other keys, also the other stabilized keys. Space is still a bit rattly, but it's a lot better than it used to be. There might be something other that yields that sensation though.

In the end, lubing had quite some effect on the stabilizers and was not very difficult to perform. If you don't like the feeling of the stabilized keys on topre boards, I can recommend trying this.

User avatar
Hypersphere

30 Nov 2014, 19:14

Khers wrote: @Mu: A BT HHKB Pro 3 with CE mark and distributed via CM, now that would be awesome! Even one out of three would be cool.

Having a slow Sunday and decided to try my hand at lubing my Realforce. I'm totally useless at taking photos while in the midst of something, so I got zero shots for you unfortunately. While I was at it I figured I might just as well lube the sliders as well. I had some of EK Mechlube 1 and 2 at hand, so that was what I used. A tiny amount of the lower viscosity for the sliders and a splash of the higher viscosity for the stabilizers. I can't say that I feel any huge difference on the sliders, since the keyboard is new, I wasn't expecting much either. The stabilizers on the other hand have lost much of the scratchiness that I could previously feel.

Previously, the key that annoyed me the most was backspace and while it still has a different sound than the other keys, at least the scratchiness has gone. What I don't understand is the fact that backspace has a different sound signature to it. It's much louder than any of the other keys, also the other stabilized keys. Space is still a bit rattly, but it's a lot better than it used to be. There might be something other that yields that sensation though.

In the end, lubing had quite some effect on the stabilizers and was not very difficult to perform. If you don't like the feeling of the stabilized keys on topre boards, I can recommend trying this.
Pics would have been nice, although I can relate to not being inclined to take them. For example, I almost never document trips and vacations in pictures; I neurox my experiences. ;)

However, could you provide some description of what you did to lubricate your Realforce? To what extent did you dismantle things in order to do the lube job?

User avatar
Khers

30 Nov 2014, 21:54

Hypersphere wrote: Pics would have been nice, although I can relate to not being inclined to take them. For example, I almost never document trips and vacations in pictures; I neurox my experiences. ;)

However, could you provide some description of what you did to lubricate your Realforce? To what extent did you dismantle things in order to do the lube job?
I'm sort of the same, but my girlfriend complements me in grabbing pics of most everything. Should have gotten her involved in todays activities, shouldn't I :).

I didn't disassemble it too much: I removed the case (it's held in place by four tabs on the underside of the keyboard, towards the front) and unscrewed a rather plentiful number of screws attaching the PCB to the plate. I then removed the plate - all the domes, together with their springs stayed attached to the PCB at this time - and put that to the side.

Now I had the plate with the switch housings and sliders. I tried for a bit to remove the sliders from the switch housing, but ultimately against it since I felt that I was risking breaking the slider and/or housing. At this point you have the stabilizers easily accessible. The stabilizer wire has contact with the housing at one point, either side of the slider. I lubricated this point with the higher viscosity EK Mechlube and moved the slider up and down to spread the lube around the wire. The spacebar stabilizer is already lubed, but only where the wire attaches to the plastic part that goes into the keycap. I lubed the other possible friction generating contact areas.

At this point I decided I might just as well lube the sliders as well, or rather I lubed the corners of the switch housing where the sliders diagonal extensions are in contact with the housing. I did this with the lower of the EK Mechlubes. I applied the lube using a plastic toothpick and then a q-tip to spread the lube evenly. I then continued to move all the sliders up and down to spread the lube, until I thought that they were all moving easily (I experienced some sticking right after application that probably was due to too much lube - but it dried off with time).

I then put everything back together and am quite satisfied with the end result. So satisfied in fact that I might even try doing the same with my HHKB. That will have to wait at least until next weekend though. When I do, I will try to use my camera and snap some photos though :D.

For grabbing photos of this I guess that some sort of macro lens would be advantageous though. Something I don't have at the moment. Anyone of you more notorious photographers that have any experience with macro extension tubes? Are they any good, or is it better to jump right in at the deep end and get some serious macro glass instead?

According to the old a picture says a thousand words figure of speech, this was worth about half a photo 8-)

User avatar
Muirium
µ

30 Nov 2014, 22:46

I'm guessing you've already got an SLR to dare some talk like that! Extension tubes are okay, but you get what you pay for. I've never used one but I understand they simply shift the whole focus of a lens closer to the camera, while typically (or always?) losing autofocus. No magic. But useful if you have something long and don't mind something fiddly. Short lenses won't get you close enough to make the hack worthwhile. A native macro lens, meanwhile, is much more pleasurable to use and they're often high end portrait lenses in their own right.

The only kind of Topre I've ever been inside is the NovaTouch. Here's some (very wintry looking) shots of its stabs for comparison:

Image
Image

Takes quite a bit of work to access these innards. The NovaTouch's case is fiddly to open (with obscured clips and bonus hidden screws) and these Topre PCBs do indeed have a sea of screws holding them flat. I can sympathise with your choice to abandon popping out the sliders. Realforce sliders have a tighter fit in their shells than their NovaTouch equivalents. (Well, the single one in my possession out up so much more of a fight that I gave up on it and just filed that damn nub! Wouldn't want to do that with an entire board though.)

What's the word on using common grease, like Vaseline, on stabs? I ask as a cheapskate and amateur bike mechanic with several kinds already!

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