Why is a HHKB so expensive?

[OMG_its_Roel]

Why is a HHKB so expensive? just curous a $260 dollar keyboard with less than 60% keys

[Nuum]

We had that discussion before: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/wha ... t3295.html

[OMG_its_Roel]

Srry
thanks for the link

[Hypersphere]

I suppose if a previous discussion was held back in 2012 or so that we could resume it now in a new thread rather than resurrecting an old one.

Regarding the question of the expense of a HHKB, no doubt it is like any other product for sale -- the price is set for what the market will bear. People will pay a high price if the product seems worth it to them.

In my case, I now have 5 HHKB Pro 2. I use one in my home office and two at work, where I have two workstations. Another is a spare, and the last one is a Type-S that I recently bought in order to determine if I preferred it to the standard model.

The HHKB Pro is worth the price to me because the keyboard is unique. No other keyboard combines in a 60% form factor the design elegance of the HHKB. The layout is the best I have ever used. The symmetry is pleasing. The stock dye-sub PBT keycaps are beautiful and they have an exquisite feel to them. And I like the sound and feel of the Topre switches.

Nevertheless, while I like the downstroke "thock", I don't like the return stroke "clack". This is the reason I finally bought a Type-S. However, although I have only had the Type-S for a few days, I am not sure I like it better than the standard model. The Type-S sounds and feels a bit scratchy. And based on Typeracer results, my speed and accuracy are better on the standard model.

I am also not sure if 45g Topres are my favorite. Thinking I might prefer a heavier switch, I bought a 55g RF 87ub. There are some things about the RF that I prefer to either model of HHKB. For example, the RF sounds and feels more solid and refined. The standard 55g RF is quiet, even without silencing modifications, and I like the weightier feel of the 55g keys. However, my typing speed and accuracy are significantly better on the standard HHKB than on the 55g RF.

The RF 87ub 55g, while expensive, seems more reasonably priced than the HHKB. However, the RF is a standard TKL layout -- nothing special. In contrast, there is nothing that matches the layout and design of the HHKB Pro 2.

[Muirium]

Who would ever pay more for less?

Spoiler:

vs.

Madness!

[ماء]

"made in japan" is usually expensive indeed like stax audio, the set headphone+ampli which you can get avanza
what there are any premium mouse japan like artisan, topre.etc?

[cookie]

Hypersphere explained it verry well!
It is indeed like he said, me personally came from an ISO TKL keyboard with german layout!
I had a hard time in the beginning, especially at work where you have to do things fast but I get through it and after all struggle I can say that it totally worth it. I have my 3rd HHKB on the way to replace the Pro1 at work I use. I plan to overhaul it completely and that will take some time!

All of my HHKBs were silenced by myself, I think that the type-s is a great idea, topre did a fantastic job and I'd like to try one out! But I am pleased with my results (for now, still searching for better materilas) therefore I don't see any need to get a type-s.

As Hypersphere already mentioned, the layout is a dream! The only flaw I see ist the position of the home/end buttons, I'd love to swap them with page up/down... this is throwing me still off sometimes. I wish we could get a fully programmable controller but so far I am happy with it.

I wouldn't say that the HHKB is the best keyboard, this is something you have to decide yourself! But it is definately a keeper for me and once you get it you either love it or sell it. And i think I know why people love it so much, it has done many things right. It is very well built, it is small and beautiful, it has a unique layout, the materials are superior, the switches are fantastic, it has this special "aura". It pleases so many aspekts which has nothing to do with the actual typing! Many people concider this keyboard as the "holy grail" of keyboards, luckly for us all, they are still in production and you don't have to lurk forever to get a NIB Model-M or a Cherry G80-5000 or an ibm SSK or what so ever!

The ridiculous high price held me back for years, and I tried to get along with a solid and nice MX product. But I were never fully satisfied with them... I mean, come on 250€ for a (RUBBERDOME) keyboard? I read reviews and almost every single one of them worship this little thing, it was past belief.

Well one morning I came back home, drunk as hell and thought "Fuck it, i will get this little shit now!" and finally bought one... As you can see, it hasn't disappointed me!

[Madhias]

Well one morning I came back home, drunk as hell and thought "Fuck it, i will get this little shit now!" and finally bought one... As you can see, it hasn't disappointed me!

I remember your post which was like "drunk as fuck, bought a HHKB".

[Khers]

I got my HHKB today and while I've yet to adapt to the quirks of the layout I really like this little thing! Ok, I might be a bit biased, having just spent $260 on it, but I really like the feeling of the switches and the board in general.

The reason I got it is two-fold. Part of it is the same as cookie, I've read a couple of reviews of it and it's sort of universally loved so I was curious if this was indeed the ONE (ok, I know, there is no such thing as the one and I'm probably jinxed for writing that). The other reason is that I saw one of the early versions of the HHKB many years ago thought that it looked cute, was intrigued by the rather astronomical price and decided I would get one day. Of course I forgot about this and never bought one, until the other week. Thought that if I didn't like it it would be rather easy to sell on and therefore was rather safe.

I like it though, and after just a couple of hours on this thing I can already say that I have a hard time to seeing myself get rid of it.

I can't say that it's worth the money as I think that it comes down to personal preference and what you are willing to spend on a keyboard. However, if you factor in the fact that you don't need to get a new set of keycaps for a Topre board - the originals are sublime - something you imho need to do on most MX boards, the difference is not huge. The fact that an HHKB is more expensive than a TKL Realforce is a bit intriguing though.

[cookie]

Another HHKB arived today as my daily driver at work and what can I say, it its awesome!
I must admit that I got so used to my silenced versions that I really dislike the stock sound, I will keep it that way so I have an easyer time making a comparison video with the different dampering mateiral I came up

I don't want to highjack this thread about the dampering kit I am planing to release but a few ppl are interested, and be sure that it will be less expensive than a type-s

(Shipping cost coul'd increase the price unfortunately, I am located in Germany)

[Hypersphere]

@cookie: Do you have a Type-S? It would be helpful for your silencing project to be able to make your own direct comparisons not only with the standard model, but with the Type-S.

I am still trying to decide if I prefer the sound and feel of the Type-S or the standard version, but I am leaning toward the standard version. The Type-S sounds and feels "scratchy" to me. Although I don't particularly like the return-stroke "clack" of the standard model, the key action feels better than that of the Type-S, and my typing speed and accuracy are better with the standard than with the Type-S.

It is interesting that my RF 87ub 55g is quiet enough that I do not feel compelled to get a silent RF or to do a silencing mod on it. The RF has a feel and look of luxurious solidity, but it is not fun.

Referring to Muirium's "pay more for less" post (vide supra), the RF is the station wagon; the HHKB is the red sports car.

[cookie]

No unfortunately I don't have a type-s And I don't think that someone would actually lend me one so that I can try it out and compare the result to the "real thing". Also I heared that some ppl complain about switch "whistle". I have no Idea where it comes from but without a type-s I will probably never know :/

Muirium's example is on point!

[Hypersphere]

No unfortunately I don't have a type-s And I don't think that someone would actually lend me one so that I can try it out and compare the result to the "real thing". Also I heared that some ppl complain about switch "whistle". I have no Idea where it comes from but without a type-s I will probably never know :/

Muirium's example is on point!

I've been trying to elicit the elusive whistle, and I think I have finally managed. I notice it on some keys, especially if I hit them on the front edge instead of dead-center. There are a couple of theories, each depending on the notion that the tolerance of Type-S switches (clearance between the slider and housing) are smaller than on standard switches. One theory contends that the slider in the housing is like a piston in a cylinder, and the displaced air moving through a tight space creates a sound -- the whistle. The other theory suggests that the tighter tolerance of the Type-S switch creates more friction, and the rubbing of two surfaces creates the sound -- like the chirping of a cricket.

And, yes, as is so often the case, Mu's example is on point. He is quite perceptive and knows how to put across particularly apt examples to express his insights.

[Khers]

Of course! The sports car analogy makes total sense. Regarding the noise, I've never heard a type-s, but I've to say that I think the standard HHKB is really rather quiet, at least to my ears - coming from an IBM. Having said that, I am interested if you get a silencing kit out, cookie. If nothing else so to see whether silencing is something for me.

Also, after a day on the HHKB, sitting by my laptop keyboard I constantly hit the ISO enter instead of backspace - I guess I'm slowly adapting

Btw, the sports car analogy fails when it comes to noise. When buying a car you pay more for the louder more extravagant car and pay even more to put an even louder exhaust on your sports car of choice

[Muirium]

Thanks. The internet makes short work in finding just the right pictures to prove a point. You might be surprised to know just how expensive the little red car is!

I have an anecdotal data point for Topre slider size variety. I tried putting a standard Topre slider into my NovaTouch, and vice versa:

Meanwhile, as I had it apart already, I installed a genuine Topre slider into the Esc key position on my NovaTouch. The sliders are externally different too! This Topre cap wobbles more than any of the MX ones on the board, and when I reassembled the Topre donor switch (a lonely tester from Mr. Interface's sample kit) that switch has way too much resistance, even without the dome. Looks like Topre / CM had to make these hybrid sliders wider than standard Topre, probably for the MX mount to fit.

They are indeed different diameters, if only slightly. But slight differences multiply when at the heart of a switch. "Whistling" sounds like a side effect from too tight a fit between slider and shell. I bet the sound is from friction. The NovaTouch, meanwhile, may have sliders that (while wider than those on the Realforce) are a bit on the loose side for their housings.

[cookie]

Maybe the whistle comes from a lose damering ring? From what I see on pictures, they don't fit tight on the slider.
This could also cause the scratchyness. Becasue I use a punching kit to make those O-rings I am limited to a slightly smaller diameter for the inner hole. The O-Rings fit verry tight and don't travel around while typing. Beside of the dampering effect, I've never had issues.

Maybe my O-Rings are also interesting for people who alreaady have a type-s?

[Muirium]

But those guys are real snobs!

Oddly enough, I found your rings much, much easier to install on NovaTouch sliders than the one Realforce slider that I have. Nothing inherent to the rings, but because the NovaTouch sliders are way easier to pop out of their housing. I had such a struggle with the Realforce slider's little notch that I got out a file and cheated! Fine to hack a tester like that, but I wouldn't do it to a full keyboard.

How much do you reckon a full TKL pack of your rings would be? I've got only a handful of keys worth.

[cookie]

This highly depends on the material I use, the new stuff I am trying out is pricy!
I do not plan to make any profit out of this but I't should cover the costs of tools needed for this.
If I punch out the rings like I did before, one set for a 60% will take approximately 30min depends on how often I fail to center the inner punch. I will need a hand press and a custom punch which will punch out the inner and outer ring at once, this will increase the time dramastically!

Next step is a comparison video, it would be awesome if I could get my hands on a type-s for that.
Then I will start an interest check and get in production.

[davkol]

Why is a HHKB so expensive? just curous a $260 dollar keyboard with less than 60% keys

Japanese labour + marketing. And an ABS spacebar.

[Muirium]

That's one way of putting it…

In honesty, I'd put Topre switches at the top of the reasons switch. Followed by HHKB mystique (made worse by their being sold nowhere in Europe). Then the nice PBT caps, besides, sigh, the spacebar.

I've never actually seen an HHKB ad. I've never heard of them outside of keyboard forums, where owners are the ones showing them off, not sellers. And I don't care if something is made in Japan, USA, or China. What matters is word of mouth.

[Hypersphere]

Before I finally tried a HHKB Pro 2 for myself, I noticed that the reviews were almost uniformly positive. But it was more than that. The reviewers didn't merely like the HHKB, they loved it. I saw the same sort of emotional attachment to these little keyboards that I had seen with the first Mac computers -- the diminutive upright white boxes with the tiny built-in CRT screens. I didn't see this kind of devotion to other keyboards. Even the IBM Model M inspired respect and veneration, but not the sort of connection one might feel toward a personal droid like R2D2. Finally, I knew I had to try the HHKB for myself, and I was willing to pay the price.

[davkol]

Marketing perhaps isn't the right word, but it's more than obvious (especially if you take a look at the Lite version) that it's supposed to be a luxury item (umm, speaking of car analogies…) in the first place.

[Hypersphere]

Another thing that people often don't consider is that the HHKB Pro 2 is ready to go right out of the box. No real need to add new caps or a case (cases aren't really applicable to this keyboard anyway).

In contrast, you can pay over !00 USD for a Poker II, but you will probably want a nice set of caps for it (100s+) and perhaps an aluminum case (another 100+). By the time you've finished upgrading your Poker, you have spent well in excess of 300 USD.

The HHKB Pro 2 is currently 235 USD from EK.

[davkol]

Poker 2 has thick PBT keycaps out of the box AFAIK, and supports remapping. There's absolutely no reason to mod it, unless someone, y'know, wants a luxury item (why not get one straight away) or enjoys modding. Cherry MX switches are scratchy? Well, the original HHKB was a rubber dome (not Topre), but it wasn't any cheaper.

[Muirium]

Comparing the HHKB to an SUV, eh? Up is down? War is peace? Got it!

Meanwhile…

Twelve yards long,
Two lanes wide,
Sixty-five tons of American pride,
Cayonero-oh!