Keyboards for Alps Keycaps Dye Sub PBT or Doubleshot ABS?

[Hypersphere]

Which keyboards could be used as a source for dye-sub PBT or doubleshot ABS Alps (or Matias) keycaps?

[JackMills]

Interested in an answer on this one.

[scottc]

I recently got ahold of an Apple Design keyboard with ALPS-mount rubber domes. They came with quite nice PBT dyesubs (as far as I can tell). You could also go for an Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What material do Acer 6311/6312 keycaps use? They're dye-sub, that's all I know.

For doubleshot ABS there are plenty of options (Monterey, Northgate, Oriental Tech etc) but it all depends on exactly what shape and size keys you're looking for. Is big-ass enter or 1 u backspace an issue, for example?

[gogusrl]

From what I understand, almost all doubleshots are ABS (only recently they've made POM/PBT doubleshots) and all dyesubs are PBT so that Acer should have PBT Dyesubs (got one myself but loaned it to a friend atm so I can't do the float test).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

There are plenty of vintage double-shot keyboards with superb wear resistance. It was possible in the 70s and 80s to make double-shot keycaps from a better material; whether this is prohibited now by cost or regulation, I do not know.

[Hypersphere]

Are there specific keyboard models to look for, either for dye-sub PBT or doubleshot ABS?

I've heard that the SGI Granite keyboard and possibly some Wang keyboards had dye-sub PBT, but I don't know specific models or years.

Modifiers and even some alpha keys are going to be problematic, and I will probably need to put together a set from several donor keyboards.

I have at least a couple projects in mind: the Infinity keyboard kit with Matias switch option and the Matias 60 keyboard with the Matias switch option. The latter has an impossible bottom row that luckily is already going to be black PBT.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Quick selection off the top of my head:

Dye-sub:
Acer 6311 and 6312 (ANSI and ISO)

Double-shot:
Monterey K101/K102 (unknown OEM — regional keys are dye-sub ABS it seems, but I'm not certain)
Oriental Tech OK-100 series (Tai-Hao)
Zenith Supersport SX (Tai-Hao?)
Focus FK-2001 (Tai-Hao) and other related Focus keyboards
[wiki]Northgate OmniKey 101[/wiki] (Tai-Hao) (as that one is depicted on the wiki with doubleshots)

[Hypersphere]

@Daniel Beardsmore:

Thanks! Excellent memory for the top of one's head!

I've heard that there are even some triple-shot Alps caps out there.

Another possible dye-sub: Wang 725-3770 (black Alps; 1995 vintage).

[002]

Some of the nicest Alps caps I've come across are the PBT dye-sub ones on the IBM PC Convertible. The SIIG Minitouch can also have dye-sub caps if you're lucky.

Monterey K101/K102 (unknown OEM — regional keys are dye-sub ABS it seems, but I'm not certain)

I didn't realise that dye-sub ABS was possible?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Some of the keys are not double-shot (the UK-specific ones), but they're still ABS I assume as they're deep yellow. If it's pad printing, it's very good pad printing; last time I scrutinised those keycaps I figured they had to be dye-sub. Oddly, a few keys are distinctly less yellow, though still badly yellowed.

[amospalla]

What material do Acer 6311/6312 keycaps use? They're dye-sub, that's all I know.

I've got those keycaps (a pair of sets) and lots have have become yellow.

Doing the water test Acer keycaps do sink exactly the same as my Matias mini quiet pro keycaps. Those sink slowly than my PBT keycaps from my modern Cherry g80-3000.

I am also interested in PBT keycaps for my Matias Mini Quiet Pro.

[Muirium]

Although nothing fancy, my Acer 6312 (here on the wiki) has some of the best feeling PBT caps I've ever come across. They're not thick, but they make up for it with that nice pumice texture you get on some PBT caps, which they have in spades. It's strongest on the sides, which is odd but pleasant. I have plans to use them with Matias switches or any nice hoard of Alps I come across, as the Acer switches aren't up to much, the board has abysmal rollover (trips me up when I'm editing text), and the layout is fairly modern so the caps have a lot of potential for ISO customs.

@Hyper: don't forget about mixing profiles as well as materials. My big hangup with that bottom row on the Matias 60% is that it will likely be impossible to match with existing caps, sourced elsewhere. Keyboards with mismatching caps — height and shape-wise — feel miserable to type on; which is worse still than merely looking daft, another unavoidable consequence of that bottom row.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What material do Acer 6311/6312 keycaps use? They're dye-sub, that's all I know.

I've got those keycaps (a pair of sets) and lots have have become yellow.

There's different designs of Acer keyboards — I wonder if the keycaps vary between designs. How are the legends on yours printed?

[jacobolus]

Here’s a tweaked version of my post at Geekhack (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65 ... msg1539628):

Thick Alps dyesub caps are in general great.

I really like the Apple ones on Apple Standard Keyboard, Apple Extended Keyboard, Apple Extended Keyboard II, and Macintosh Portable keyboards. Very thick, no sharp corners.

SGI AT101 legends are kind of fun: yay oblique fonts. I’m not the biggest fan of the design of the symbols in the number row, but they’re okay.

Other keyboards with the same type of keycaps but different legends: the oldest Dell AT101s, IBM PC Convertible 5140, Xerox Docutech boards (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60956.0), the oldest Zenith XT keyboards, Wang 724s, I believe some Japanese IBM Alps plate spring boards.

IBM P70/P75 (Alps plate spring) keyboards have the same great thick dyesub caps for the larger keys, but all the 1u keys (except the homing keys), as well as the ctrl and alt keys, are super thin PBT dyesubs instead. Using the larger keys from a P70/P75 keyboard plus the 1u keys from another board is a potential way to get a nice full ANSI set, if the other board has some kind of funky layout.

This type of C.Itoh board even has similar PBT dyesubs with spherical tops: http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/citoh.htm
I’m kind of annoyed that I asked HaaTa about the switches on one that was up for sale on ebay instead of just buying it. He bought it on the spot, before answering my question about what the switches were. Oh well.

* * *

Northgate and early Focus keyboards have doubleshots that I believe were made by Tai Hao. There are several other keyboards over the years with similar Tai Hao Alps caps. For example, this cute “Clicker” semi-mechanical board (click leaf + rubber dome or spring over membrane or something, like an Acer switch) http://www.ebay.com/itm/171393295715

I think they’re alright, but I slightly prefer Alps-made doubleshots (e.g. old Toshiba laptops, NEC luggables, NeXT keyboards, and various others).

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: Yes, I have been looking at profiles, and as much as I admire Matias and wish him well, I have just about given up on the forthcoming Matias 60.

However, I really like the Infinity keyboard kit project that was available on Massdrop, and it looks like there may be a second round. It is a bit pricey for a DIY kit, but there are not that many keyboard options with Matias switches, and they have chosen an intelligent layout based on the HHKB. Split right shift key!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-keyboard-kit

Here are the two Infinity layouts:

Infinity_Hacker.png (21.26 KiB) Viewed 11023 times

Infinity_Std.png (21.25 KiB) Viewed 11023 times

Note that the bottom row contains Function, Alt, Menu, and blank keys as mere placeholders; the layouts are entirely programmable.

[Muirium]

I like the "Standard" layout, of course…



Both of those will be quite challenging to source from classic caps, though. Not impossible, but challenging. Fortunately, short right Shift was quite common, once upon a time. Often the \ key went to the right of there, thanks to its natural place being taken up by our old ungainly friend Big Ass Return!

Yeah, it's tricky.

[jacobolus]

Both of those will be quite challenging to source from classic caps, though.

Note that on the current Infinity keyboard, if you want Alps switches you can only use keycaps with Costar-style (MX mount) stabilizers.

The only old Alps-mount keycaps I know with such stabilizer inserts are thin pad-printed ABS, and the only new ones I know of are from Signature Plastics.

You can source other old Alps keycaps, but you won’t have any stabilizers on the left shift or enter, which are both 2.25u, and will be pretty wobbly unstabilized.

I’m hoping future MassDrop Alps-compatible keyboards will have a better stabilizer story, using Matias’s new stabilizers. Then all the old Alps keycap sets will work.

[tlt]

I really liked the DS caps from the Toshiba T3200SX and put them on a Dell for a while

[Hypersphere]

Both of those will be quite challenging to source from classic caps, though.

Note that on the current Infinity keyboard, if you want Alps switches you can only use keycaps with Costar-style (MX mount) stabilizers.

The only old Alps-mount keycaps I know with such stabilizer inserts are thin pad-printed ABS, and the only new ones I know of are from Signature Plastics.

You can source other old Alps keycaps, but you won’t have any stabilizers on the left shift or enter, which are both 2.25u, and will be pretty wobbly unstabilized.

I’m hoping future MassDrop Alps-compatible keyboards will have a better stabilizer story, using Matias’s new stabilizers. Then all the old Alps keycap sets will work.

Thanks for this! I wish I had read the Infinity keyboard description more carefully. I did not realize until now the situation with the stabilizers.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I really liked the DS caps from the Toshiba T3200SX and put them on a Dell for a while …

Those look like Tai-Hao caps again (note the huge symbols the number pad and distinctive [, ] and %).

Hopefully one day we'll hit MOQ on getting them to make new double-shot Alps keycaps again.

[amospalla]

What material do Acer 6311/6312 keycaps use? They're dye-sub, that's all I know.

I've got those keycaps (a pair of sets) and lots have have become yellow.

There's different designs of Acer keyboards — I wonder if the keycaps vary between designs. How are the legends on yours printed?

Acer 6312-ta seems to be dye-sublimated. The other keyboard is a Foxen 6312-tw. The later has different keycaps (slightly different shape) and some keys has lost some part of the simbol, like lost paint, but again just only a bit portion.

[jacobolus]

Those look like Tai-Hao caps again (note the huge symbols the number pad and distinctive [, ] and %).

The Toshiba laptop caps were definitely made by Alps. Tai Hao and Alps doubleshot legends are pretty similar though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Some unscientific tests:

1) Tulip ATK 030244 — most keys are double-shot, with an alternative printing method used for the regional keys; the alternative method is flush with the surface of the keycaps, is difficult to scrape off appears to have penetrated a little into the plastic, and maintains the same shine as the surface of the keycap.

Tulip ATK 030244 (Monterey K102) -- unknown and double-shot.jpg (196.67 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

Tulip ATK 030244 -- yellowing.jpg (55.79 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

Both types of keycap have yellowed badly.

2) Datacomp DFK192 — thick gloss pad printing, which scrapes off more easily, as the plastic seems to be softer and easier to disturb.

Datacomp DFK192 -- thick pad printed.jpg (140.27 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

3) Acer 6312 — legend is very easy to scratch off and clearly has not penetrated at all, yet still appears to be dye-sublimated; the plastic has yellowed, but to a far lesser degree than other keyboards might.

Acer 6312 -- unknown.jpg (60.49 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

Acer 6312 -- yellowing .jpg (55.81 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

4) Mitsumi KPQ-E99ZC-12 — pad printed with selective image clear coat. For anyone who doubts the longevity of pad printing, they need a Mitsumi as the legends on this keyboard are virtually impossible to remove.

Mitsumi KPQ-E99ZC-12 -- selective image coated pad printed.jpg (53.02 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

Mitsumi KPQ-E99ZC-12 -- yellowing.jpg (44.96 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

Having continued to attack the surface with a knife I finally got to the point that the clear coating was starting to give way, but this took a lot of scraping with sharp knives to get to this stage:

Mitsumi KPQ-E99ZC-12 -- further scraping.jpg (55.98 KiB) Viewed 10897 times

You've seen keyboards where the clear coat is significantly stronger than the ABS and the legend remains when the rest of the surface is worn away, and this is that type of clear coat: extremely durable.

[IvanIvanovich]

Next boards seem to have some pretty nice doubleshots. Though with most vintage Alps boards finding any with ANSI 2.25 enter or 1.25 mods is going to be a real challenge. It's the main thing that always kept me away from buying Alps stuff.

[Hypersphere]

I've seen Alps-switch boards with what I think are the correct dimensions of Enter and mods, but I am not sure about the type of stabilizers.

This is sad. I was initially psyched about a 60% with Matias switches, but if sourcing keycaps is going to be this problematic, I suppose I should have gone with Cherry mx (or just forgotten about it altogether -- I really ought to be content with my HHKB Pro 2!).

EDIT:

There is an Interest Check on Signature Plastics for an Alps keycap set. They need more votes for it to be a go.

http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/suggested/deals/

http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/deals/del ... s-dcs-set/

[Hypersphere]

Quick selection off the top of my head:

Dye-sub:
Acer 6311 and 6312 (ANSI and ISO)

Double-shot:
Monterey K101/K102 (unknown OEM — regional keys are dye-sub ABS it seems, but I'm not certain)
Oriental Tech OK-100 series (Tai-Hao)
Zenith Supersport SX (Tai-Hao?)
Focus FK-2001 (Tai-Hao) and other related Focus keyboards
[wiki]Northgate OmniKey 101[/wiki] (Tai-Hao) (as that one is depicted on the wiki with doubleshots)

Do you happen to know what kind of keycaps were used on the following?

Data General 6311 (Rebranded Acer 6311?).

Acer 6311-KW "Accufeel" (with Windows keys).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't, no.

[Hypersphere]

Does anyone know where to find a 6.25 unit spacebar that takes an Alps-mount switch and Costar-type stabilizers?

This would be to replace the spacebar on the V60 Matias Quiet Click Mini keyboard.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Hmm … [wiki]Space by keyboard[/wiki] only covers Cherry MX so far.

The Monterey K101/K102 space bar takes Cherry MX stabilisers (I think), but it's 7 u, as is the OK-100M. The AT102W appears to have a 6.25 u stabiliser, but according to some photos I took (in my 1500+ heap of unsorted photos), the stabilisers in both that and the OK-100M take rectangular posts — Edit: actually the insert shape isn't relevant, so long as the wire diameter is approximately the same, since you can harvest the inserts too.

My K102 space bar is just sat on my desk at work as I've gone and lost the inserts, so if I remember I'll measure it and put it on the aforementioned wiki page.