Matias 60 Choices

[Hypersphere]

I am considering ordering a Matias 60 keyboard, despite the strange configuration of the bottom row. There are two layout choices: PC and Mac; and three key switch choices: Click, Quiet, and Quiet Linear. It will be possible to toggle between Mac and PC layouts via a DIP switch setting. However, it is not clear how this might affect the Navigation keys in the PC version, i.e., Home/End and Pgup/PgDn.

Despite the strangeness of either layout, which of the two would be preferable and why?

PC layout:

MTS60PC.jpg (159.9 KiB) Viewed 9597 times

Mac layout:

MTS60Mac.jpg (156.21 KiB) Viewed 9597 times

[scottc]

I think I would prefer the PC layout for a few reasons:

- On the Mac layout, the left-hand function key is to the left of control. I'm used to this from my Thinkpad, but I think I would find it irritating on a desktop keyboard.
- The PC version has a "HHKB Fn". Edgar Matias himself previously said that he would be open to sharing schematics etc. to enable users to add their own controllers. Even if this proves to be difficult, it could be remapped in software. This is a major plus for the layout for me.
- Dedicated PgUp/etc keys are nice but probably not optimally placed for my usage. Then again, I don't use right-hand mods very often so they might be nice to have.

[Muirium]

Accepting the horrors of the super fat bottom row, the PC one is better in every respect besides the legends (ugh, Windows key). Well, if the well placed key currently masquerading as Delete were Fn. Although I will definitely buy neither!

Do we use Page Up/Down and Home/End on Macs? Yes! So why lose them? Surely only the mods should be differently labelled.

[Hypersphere]

Legends are of secondary concern. It will be possible to swap keycaps, and I might opt for blanks for the mods and nav keys. In addition, the bottom row will be PBT and, depending on the number of units sold, the keyboard will be increasingly populated with PBT keycaps.

If I can decide on a layout, this leaves only the choice of switches. I've ruled out the Quiet Linears, because I prefer having tactile feedback, which both the Click and Quiet switches deliver handsomely. The Click switches remind me of IBM Model F, and the Quiet remind me of silenced Topre but with more tactility.

[Stabilized]

Sorry to sort of hijack this thread, but I had a quick look at the web page I don't think it is made that clear how this keyboard with Cherry switches would work (mainly in terms of the bottom row).
Interesting to hear that there may be plans to make it programmable with a 3rd party controller, but I can't justify buying it with the hopes of this down the line. If it was programmable by default and it was compatible with current 60% cases, then I would be a lot more interested.

To go back to the subject in hand; I would go for the PC layout, as the additionally keys make more sense to me, especially if you can remap the small delete by the shift to be function as well.

[jacobolus]

Sorry to sort of hijack this thread, but I had a quick look at the web page I don't think it is made that clear how this keyboard with Cherry switches would work (mainly in terms of the bottom row).

Bottom row would be Alps switches, top 4 rows would be MX.

[cookie]

The biggest issue for me would be the fact that you can't get your hands on propper keycaps. It is very difficult to get good caps for alps type stems but that bottom row will make it impossible to fit nice caps in that board. It's up to you, if you are happy with the stock caps, go for one of the boards. The weird layout of both keyboards woult annoy me though :/

[Findecanor]

All keys on the bottom row must be Matias/Alps The plate and PCB don't support Cherry on that row.

I'm a bit confused about the stabilisers though. It was said that there should be different positions on the plate for the clips so that you could use them with either Alps-style or Costar-style stabilisers, but prototype plates shown have only supported Alps-style.
However, Alps-style should work with Costar-style inserts if you use the right type of stabiliser wire - and that might be something that you could make yourself.

[jacobolus]

that bottom row will make it impossible to fit nice caps in that board

The bottom row is all thick PBT caps. What’s your definition of “nice”?

[cookie]

I assumed all caps are made of ABS plastic, I didn't know that they are made of thick PBT. Speaking of so, that would be my definition of "nice" caps

[Muirium]

Looking at the obese bottom row on this keyboard, I can safely say it fails to fit my definition of anything remotely nice! Any caps that fit that are cry out loud ugly in my opinion.

I wish Matias made smarter compromises with this design. The success of the HHKB and Poker — each now popular enough to be alive and well for many years and generations — proves that people can live without an arrow cluster! Especially the kind of people who will pay top dollar for an unusual, low volume keyboard like this.

We all agree that Matias' greatest strength is the switches. The best way to approach 60% (or 65%-75%) layout would be simply to concentrate squarely on that. Something good and clean with as much compatibility with vintage Alps doubleshots and dyesubs as practical. (Those are "nice" caps indeed! Better than anything I expect here.) But what this board makes me think of is the other ungainly designs out there that want to duck at the last moment and appeal to a user who doesn't exist. This thing will cost more than a Poker. Who's going to buy it? Keyboard enthusiasts, especially those well versed in switches who know there's something besides MX worth trying. And we are more likely to be into upgrading with our own caps! Just the thing this layout denies.

Ugh.

Trouble is, if this sells badly, Matias would be wise to give up on us lot entirely, without turning back to see why we just simply didn't go for it…

I hope he has an MX mount switch project. That would solve so many problems for customs builders and cap compatibility outright. Every switch maker is up to it nowadays, for good reason!

[andrewjoy]

that bottom row .....

Kill it kill it with fire!

Why did they bother with a nav cluster ? Why not just use an FN key later for it ?

[cookie]

I actually don't know how to feel about the bottom row, at one hand I give them credit for their courage to try something new on the other hand it indeed looks ugly :/

I can remember people forecasting that the poker will fail bady because of the missing arrow cluster, it is now one of the most sold 60% boards on the market! Time will show, but I don't see myself convinced to spend money on such a board though :/

[Stabilized]

I really would have to see one after they have been made to have a final opinion on the bottom row.

But I do agree with Muirium on a lot of these points, I think it would have been hugely more beneficial to do something like the Duck Viper or Orion, but much cheaper and by Matias!

On the topic of dedicated arrows keys, I would have to agree with Muirium again, I think users have taken to the lack of them very well, in return for being able to source standard keycaps for their boards. The amount of people posting poker pictures on somewhere like r/mk is amazing, but no-one seems to bother going for the pure pro (the model with dedicated arrow keys).

[Muirium]

I reckon what's tugging Matias in the wrong direction is the desire to appeal to the mainstream keyboard market. The kind of people who buy this:

Spoiler:

Found via a Google Images search for "cheap desktop keyboard", no less!

The fat spacebar is definitely in fashion on crap keyboards now. And you can see what happens when it meets the desire to cram in a set of arrow keys. I'm sure this feels like a safe, conservative choice to Matias. Because who knows, maybe this will be a breakout hit and appeal to people as their first mechanical keyboard, and who are the most fearful of daring things like losing the nav cluster?

But that's a phantom safety. To get anywhere, this board has to appeal to enthusiasts, who even know what an Alps switch is, and why they want them. The kind of people who are all over the Poker and have created an entire economy for replacement cases and keysets for that immensely customisable board! The Matias 60's design, meanwhile, is very unfriendly to our desires for case and caps compatibility. There will be no way to truly customise one of these when it's stuck with unique caps like that. And without keyboard community appeal, its chances with the mainstream don't look realistic.

That's my perspective at least. A bad choice of design priorities.

[andrewjoy]

I was just thinking , how are they going to stabilise them big ass keys ? aint they just going to bind terribly if you hit them on the edge ? I mean i guess they could rotate the switch 90 degrees and that would help ( alps iso/big ass enter style) but that will surely cause problems with production of the caps ?

[Hypersphere]

Yes, I agree with some of the comments about the design of the Matias 60. It's a shame that the project might fail because of taking a chance on an unorthodox design.

For one thing, I really like Matias switches. Since acquiring my KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet keyboards, these boards have risen to the top of my keyboard rotation, pushing aside notable keyboards such as the RF 87ub 55g, IBM XT, IBM SSK, HHKB Pro 2, and HHKB Pro 2 Type-S.

However, one thing that helps make my V60 Matias boards acceptable is that I have replaced the mods with black blanks from Matias and the alphanumerics with dye-sub PBT caps from an IBM 5140.

If high-quality dye-sub PBT keycaps were more readily available for Matias-switch keyboards, more people would be inclined to buy them.

I hope that the Infinity 60 keyboard kit GB on Massdrop turns out to be a success. They got it right with respect to layout choices, and if the kits work well for people, I think there will be sufficient demand to launch another GB.

[jacobolus]

I reckon what's tugging Matias in the wrong direction is the desire to appeal to the mainstream keyboard market. The kind of people who buy this: [...] The fat spacebar is definitely in fashion on crap keyboards now. And you can see what happens when it meets the desire to cram in a set of arrow keys. I'm sure this feels like a safe, conservative choice to Matias. Because who knows, maybe this will be a breakout hit and appeal to people as their first mechanical keyboard, and who are the most fearful of daring things like losing the nav cluster?

This is not only a very negative cynical somewhat insulting point of view, but also completely wrong, as you could trivially figure out by asking Matias about it (or reading his posts about the subject).

The “fat spacebar” provides a substantial ergonomic advantage. It got its start on ergonomic keyboards like the IBM Adjustable M15 and (a bit less fat) the Cherry G80-5000 (please don’t tell me those are “crap keyboards”), and then got copied by a whole host of other ergonomic keyboards including the sculpted microsoft ones, and then finally worked its way down to standard layout rubber domes from Logitech, etc.

The reason it was added to those keyboards, and the reason it continues to be added to your so-called “crap keyboards” is that it provides a very noticeable ergonomic advantage by allowing the hand to adopt a more open neutral posture, which reduces tension and helps against RSI, as has been empirically verified in several studies. Among relatively simple keyboard layout changes, it’s one of the nicest “free wins” you can get. There’s almost no downside for a typical user, just benefit. (As for “enthusiasts”... well, you can’t make them happy anyway, those guys are hardened cynics who will complain about everything for any reason at all, or no reason.)

Note also that Matias has been engaging directly with the “enthusiast” community, asking for feedback, and making changes in response to criticism. I’m not sure his project will hit his target numbers, but a bunch of people are excited about it, and there are at least a handful of folks who really like the bottom row layout (and they’re not those “mainstream”, “the kind of people who...” folks you look down on either). Maybe he’d sell more if he just made a half-assed Poker clone with Matias switches in it, after all, that’s what discerning “enthusiasts” want, right? Just more of the same thing everyone else is already making, what better for an enthusiast?

[jacobolus]

I was just thinking , how are they going to stabilise them big ass keys ? aint they just going to bind terribly if you hit them on the edge ? I mean i guess they could rotate the switch 90 degrees and that would help ( alps iso/big ass enter style) but that will surely cause problems with production of the caps ?

The switches don’t seem to be rotated for those keycaps:


I suspect that with 1x1.5 and 1.25x1.5 keys it won’t be too much problem, but it’ll be neat to test some of these in person once the ErgoPros start shipping out.

[Findecanor]

LThe success of the HHKB and Poker — each now popular enough to be alive and well for many years and generations — proves that people can live without an arrow cluster!

Then the V60 is for you. The arrow cluster is the point of this keyboard. Quit yer whining!

I hope he has an MX mount switch project. That would solve so many problems for customs builders and cap compatibility outright. Every switch maker is up to it nowadays, for good reason!

Only because it is popular right now. Back in the '90s Alps mount was The Shit. I see no technical reason for one or the other really. A mount that would allow for evenly distributed backlight and not bind too much on off-centre key presses would be better IMHO.

[Hypersphere]

I do applaud Matias for being bold and introducing a controversial new design. As he states on the Matias 60 web page, he wanted to create a 60% form factor keyboard that included arrow and navigation keys in the primary layer. He did this, while maintaining a standard layout and standard staggering in the top four rows. Something had to give, and this was the bottom row.

However, given the design constraints (including the inclusion of arrow keys), I would have preferred keeping the bottom-row mods and spacebar at normal height and using half-height switches for the arrow keys. I would also have liked the Fn key to the right of a shortened Right Shift (replacing the Delete key in the PC version). The nav keys would be in the Fn layer. Yet here again, Matias was not trying to give us a HHKB with Matias switches, and I hope that his gamble will pay off for him.

As for me, I am still undecided about purchasing a Matias 60. In the meantime, I am getting my Matias-switch "fix" by using my V60MTS-Click and V60MTS-Quiet mini keyboards.

[Muirium]

Quit yer whining!

Ach!

I hope he has an MX mount switch project. That would solve so many problems for customs builders and cap compatibility outright. Every switch maker is up to it nowadays, for good reason!

Only because it is popular right now. Back in the '90s Alps mount was The Shit. I see no technical reason for one or the other really. A mount that would allow for evenly distributed backlight and not bind too much on off-centre key presses would be better IMHO.

True. MX mount isn't perfect, I think Topre is a better mount for instance, but Alps is a particularly bad one. A couple of reasons come to mind, independent of its niche status for new caps today:

First is quite how much of a bitch it can be to pull a cap. I've never had an Alps-style fight with any MX cap. But I've had many choice profanities for Alps mount caps on the various boards of them I've cleaned. And I even managed to chip one of my Alps mount Acer switches while wrestling a determined PBT cap out its grippy maw. Alps mount isn't always horrible for pulling caps, but the bad end of its range reaches far indeed.

Second, when caps mount on switches there's always some bulging going on, as the result of necessary tightness for a friction fit. On Alps mount, the switch's stem skirts the cap's peg, and so deforms outwards. This can make some Alps caps mess up certain switches, like the binding problems Hyper ran into with some caps + keyboard combinations lately in his adventures in Alps. MX is much smarter about this. The switch stem acts as the peg, so it doesn't bulge. Instead, that's left to the cap. There's a good bit of tolerance for that, as the MX housing is wider than the cylindrical cap stem (or whatever we call the underside of the cap with the cruciform mount) which allows for a bit of bulging without any rub in the switch itself. The result is happier compatibility between different cap plastics and manufacturers.

But then again, MX downright sucks for centre illumination and for riding high. It's a difficult geometry to build adapters for, without excessive extra height:



A lot has changed since the 90s. Mechanical keyboards very almost died out entirely for a while. And Alps died, full stop. MX — as used by Filco, Das, and increasingly everyone else who got on the mech bandwagon — climbed to popular ascendancy at a crucial time. There's still a handful of quality caps manufacturers at work out there tooled for it and making good money today. The network effect supporting MX caps now is very strong. What reason do SP, GMK, etc. have to retool for complete Alps sets when all the demand is for MX? Chicken and egg, MX is where it's at, until something else changes in a big way.

[Hypersphere]

The situation is quite sad, as I find Cherry mx switches just about last on my list (with the exception of some random linear switches found on some terminal keyboards). My favorites include IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F), Topre, and some Alps or Alps-type switches, such as Matias Click and Matias Quiet.

This evening, I am back on my standard HHKB Pro 2 with blue alphas and black mods. Depending upon my mood, I can tolerate the return-stroke clack and enjoy the lovely look and feel of the dye-sub PBT keycaps (along with the downstroke thock). Moreover, the available Topre keycaps are of such high quality I don't miss having more variety.

Back to the topic of choices for Matias-switch keyboards, for those who have tried both Matias Click and Matias Quiet, which do you prefer and why?

[cookie]

I'd absolutely go for the matias Quiet! But I have certain thoughts about it.
Due to my experiments with several materials to get a stock Topre switch more silent I came to the conclusion that a spongy material outperforms a dense material like silicone by far! I'd like to see a different material used for the dampering, something like foam e.g


The next thing is the return spring within the switch. All switches which contains a Spring to return the slider after pressing have one major flaw. The force will increase while pressing the switch down.

That is something I can really feel in my arms while typing on a MX-Red switch. There must be a spring type or other way to get rid of this effect.

So my conclusion would be: if I had to stick with a quiet switch, which has almost zero aftermarket accessories. I'd definately stick to a HHKB Type-S or a stock pro plus dampering kit (comming soon!) over a matias quiet. It is more expensive but you will get an overall fantastic product which does not wobble, has incredibly good keycaps, based on a capacitive switch design with a premium domes (without return spring and therefore increased force).

[Muirium]

Springs behave according to Hooke's law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law

You'd need a pretty fancy ninja spring to do anything other than increase its force under compression. In fact, you'd need something that isn't a simple single spring at all. I'm calling it impractical until proven otherwise!

Strange how Hyper doesn't feel Matias/Alps wobble or its similarities to MX: increased force throughout travel (thanks to the spring) and notchy tactile response. I think he's infatuated and can't see their flaws for some reason! Maybe the spell will wear off and the prince will turn back to a frog at some point!

Anyway, I'd go for a linear Matias board. Preferably damped. The split ergo one looks interesting…

[Mal-2]

Springs behave according to Hooke's law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law

You'd need a pretty fancy ninja spring to do anything other than increase its force under compression. In fact, you'd need something that isn't a simple single spring at all. I'm calling it impractical until proven otherwise!

Strange how Hyper doesn't feel Matias/Alps wobble or its similarities to MX: increased force throughout travel (thanks to the spring) and notchy tactile response. I think he's infatuated and can't see their flaws for some reason! Maybe the spell will wear off and the prince will turn back to a frog at some point!

Anyway, I'd go for a linear Matias board. Preferably damped. The split ergo one looks interesting…

I can actually think of a way to do it, though it probably does fall under "impractical". Use opposing springs. Have one pushing up on the key in the usual manner. Have another that does nothing at first, but at some point in the key's travel, begins to counter some of the upward force of the first spring.

There are keys on musical instruments that use something akin to this, where pressing one key closes two holes, but pressing a second key opens one of them again. One example would be the Dorus G# key on early Boehm-system flutes. Other mechanisms exist which open one of two different holes depending on the combination of other keys being pressed. This is also done by unbalanced springs -- one is sprung lighter and therefore opens preferentially, but the action of another key can force it closed, in which case the second, heavier-sprung pad opens instead. (Automatic octave keys on both saxophones and oboes operate this way.)

Most of the impracticality comes from the fact that there isn't a lot of free space in a key switch, so sneaking in a second spring and attaching it to pull down would be a tight fit and probably next to impossible to ever reassemble by hand if disassembly was required.

[cookie]

Such a switch, if someone could figure out a way to fit all this inside a reasonable housing, would be impossible to assamble by machines. It somehow makes me sad that a simple dome is superior to a spring
I'd like a spring over a dome to return the slider, I don't like the idea to spend such amount of cash on a product which will change its characteristic over time. Topre domes tend to stiffen up a bit over the years, it isn't severe but I can clearly notice a difference between my pro1 and pro2!

Sometimes I feel like running in circles

[Muirium]

Most of the impracticality comes from the fact that there isn't a lot of free space in a key switch, so sneaking in a second spring and attaching it to pull down would be a tight fit and probably next to impossible to ever reassemble by hand if disassembly was required.

Yup. I've seen some interesting attempts at complex springs. Here's what NMB/Hi-Tek "space invader" switches have inside of them. A mysteriously multi-pitched spring:



http://deskthority.net/review-f45/nmb-r ... t8469.html

You're only seeing half of it there, while it's still inside the open switch. The tightly coiled section is in the middle, with symmetric looser pitched sections on either end.

Quite what this is supposed to do, force wise, I have no idea. The spring should still behave linearly, as whatever parts are weakest will compress first, and you really have to squeeze a spring right down until the metal coils touch entirely. I don't think space invader switches do that at any point in operation. They certainly feel quite heavy, typically sprung switches. Not at all like the IBM buckling spring I'm on now, which deviates from Hooke's law the moment the spring buckles.


http://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_buckling_spring

Actually, all the good springs inside switches are operating outside simple (one dimensional compression) Hooke's law. Buckling spring collapses to the side (taking up way too much space to retrofit inside of Alps) and Mitsumi miniature does something similarly two dimensional with its horizontal spring:


http://deskthority.net/wiki/Mitsumi_min ... mechanical

These feel very different from each other, yet both have much nicer tactility than naturally linear switches like Alps or MX, which must bolt it on with a bump mechanism instead.

[Parak]

So basically you're looking for a Selectric?

Here's a force curve:



Beam Springs attempt to copy that, sort of, in that they use two springs, with the bottom one providing the tactile point and some resistance to the upper:



While we're on the subject of weird springs, don't forget the gourd spring and marquadt butterfly spring

[Hypersphere]

@cookie: Please keep us posted about the Topre silencing kit that you are working on! One problem with foam materials is that they tend to break down faster than non-foam materials. Would you be able to use a solid material that was sufficiently resilient to provide good silencing properties and yet stable enough not to require replacement for many years?

I've seen spiceBar's interesting posts on GH about silencing Topre switches using ironed EK soft landing pads. I have not tried this, but it reportedly works quite well. One reason I hesitate is that it seems rather technique-dependent. Apparently, you need to use a clothing iron that is just below the melting temperature of the landing pads, and you need to apply considerable force to flatten the pads as much as possible. These factors could introduce variability. I would prefer it if I could simply purchase the pads (or washers, gaskets, or O-rings) of the correct thickness (apparently around 0.15 mm) compressibility (unknown compressibility factor), and inner/outer diameter.