Old Triumph Adler Keyboard

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foxtrott

17 Mar 2014, 21:33

Hello,

I found this keyboard on the recycling center :) but I know nothing about...
there is no name on it, no stickers, no type designation
but there are beautiful flat doubeshots.... on cherry M9 switch.
can anyone tell me more about this keyboard ?

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caps on my G80 HAD:

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Josh

17 Mar 2014, 21:35

:o nice find!

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Grond

17 Mar 2014, 22:35

Beautiful and unique keycaps. The flat design of the keyboard itself is really beyond its time. Too bad that those old switches are pretty awful to type on.

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kps

18 Mar 2014, 00:32

I would bet on it belonging to an electronic typewriter, because of the keys along the left (the bottom two are letter and line spacing) and the display.

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Mar 2014, 00:46

So, (some) M9 switches were Cherry MX mount? Are they closer to MX mount (tall stem) or M8 cross mount (short stem)?

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phosphorglow

18 Mar 2014, 02:36

Very nice rescue! I wonder what color the display lights up with?

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7bit

18 Mar 2014, 11:26

MX key caps fit,

You can actually buy these switches from CherryMX:
M9CLEAR

:o

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foxtrott

18 Mar 2014, 19:18

the display lights up in green.
but I fear that it is turned on never again...

Cherry M9 ? i think so....

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Mar 2014, 19:39

Not counting perspective, those stems are around 3 mm tall, while Cherry MX expects … well, the wiki says "The stem on the keycap is around 3.7 mm tall" while I assume I meant "the stem on the stem" or something, since I presume that's what I measured, but I forget now. Maybe the confusion over terminology is why I subconsciously wrote that. (What does "stem" mean? To me, "stem" should be the post that the keycap fits on, not the whole slider.)

Basically, the lateral dimensions of the M8 keycap are the same as MX, but the "stem" (post) is shorter, presumably leading to wobbly keycaps. To fit M8 keycaps on MX switches (why would you want to do that?), there were special M8-MX adapter switches, but I am not sure what purpose they served as surely the problem would be the other way around? M8 keycaps should be OK on MX switches, no?

It looks like the M9 post (stem) is in the middle between MX and M8, but it's hard to tell. I never did get the M9 switch(es) that I was supposed to be getting from a US Geekhacker. I don't have any M8 either, but hopefully several of us should get some of those soon.

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foxtrott

18 Mar 2014, 21:11

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_M9

lock at the second photo... I would say the same switch; with the old logo without cherry symbol

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Mar 2014, 22:07

Oh they're definitely M9. I don't know why MY and M9 were used so much in typewriters though.

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7bit

28 Mar 2014, 18:25

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Not counting perspective, those stems are around 3 mm tall, while Cherry MX expects … well, the wiki says "The stem on the keycap is around 3.7 mm tall" while I assume I meant "the stem on the stem" or something, since I presume that's what I measured, but I forget now. Maybe the confusion over terminology is why I subconsciously wrote that. (What does "stem" mean? To me, "stem" should be the post that the keycap fits on, not the whole slider.)

Basically, the lateral dimensions of the M8 keycap are the same as MX, but the "stem" (post) is shorter, presumably leading to wobbly keycaps. To fit M8 keycaps on MX switches (why would you want to do that?), there were special M8-MX adapter switches, but I am not sure what purpose they served as surely the problem would be the other way around? M8 keycaps should be OK on MX switches, no?

It looks like the M9 post (stem) is in the middle between MX and M8, but it's hard to tell. I never did get the M9 switch(es) that I was supposed to be getting from a US Geekhacker. I don't have any M8 either, but hopefully several of us should get some of those soon.
M9 (order-ID: M9CLEAR) is exactly like MX, except the cap sits on the switch at an angle.

Unlike the big M51-0131 I also sell (order-ID: M5GREY) the MX key caps really fit and don't need to be forced on like Cinderella's shoe on the wrong girl.

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Daniel Beardsmore

28 Mar 2014, 21:48

Wait, you sell M9 switches?

And what's the M5 series? That's the first I've heard of anything older than M6, and all evidence to date is that M6 and M7 are identical.

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7bit

28 Mar 2014, 22:09

M5, M6 and M7 are quite similar, but the mounts are different. The switches I got via ebay some time ago where in a box at 700 switches.

I compared only the case to switches that had been called M7 and thought these are a variant of M7, but only recently I came accross that box again and found M51-0131 on it. It would be strange if M7 switches are called M51 ..., but makes sense if they are M6 indeed. So what distinguishes them (case look the same): The mount!!!

In the Cherry Catalogue 1982, you find M7 switches with I and T mounts, but not with + mount (page 23; pdf:12)

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M5 ^^^
:o

BTW: M5,6,7 need not necessarily been introduced in sequence and need not necessarily be a replacemnt of the other, but just parallel product lines for switches from different manufacturers.

While we are at it:
M9 article:
"The stem has a dual design for both linear and tactile depending on the position it is inserted against the leaf. "

Well, indeed the stem goes in 2 ways, but thre is no difference in tactile feel (I've tested this), but there is room for a 2nd contect mechanism to do what an MX can't do: close contact in 2 different circuits!!!
:o

Now, who is the number one keyboard expert on planet earth?
:evilgeek:

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8bit

28 Mar 2014, 22:38

7bit wrote: Now, who is the number one keyboard expert on planet earth?
:evilgeek:
+1 [bit] :roll:

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Daniel Beardsmore

28 Mar 2014, 23:00

I am disappointed that you have been withholding this information all this time, especially after graboy created a topic specifically to discuss these switches.

With that said, I have catalogues for 73, 74 and 82. 73 and 74 are both M6 and are both | mount. 82 is M7 and is | and T mount. I do not see how this contradicts what I said: M6 and M7 appear to be identical. The fact that an additional mount was introduced does not make it a new switch. The fact that I have found two different sets of internals means nothing, as it turns out that Cherry changed the internals of the MX switch too, and both versions are different again from the patent.

In the 1974 catalogue, the DPST NO version is given as M52-0104 (0°) / M62-0110 (10°) which I took to be a typesetting mistake, as M5 does not appear anywhere else.

I have already said enough times that we won't fully understand these early switches without more catalogues, as there is a huge gap between 1974 and 1982. I never claimed to be an expert on old Cherry switches; no-one is, thanks to a combination of relative scarcity and limited documentation. Many of the catalogue products are never seen at all, while there are also switches seen but not found in catalogues (old and new style + mount M6/7, and M11, in particular).
7bit wrote: While we are at it:
M9 article:
"The stem has a dual design for both linear and tactile depending on the position it is inserted against the leaf. "

Well, indeed the stem goes in 2 ways, but thre is no difference in tactile feel (I've tested this), but there is room for a 2nd contect mechanism to do what an MX can't do: close contact in 2 different circuits!!!
:o

Now, who is the number one keyboard expert on planet earth?
:evilgeek:
I never wrote that comment; you are mistaking me for IvanIvanovich. If I had written it, it would be referenced back to another source, explained in far more detail, or illustrated directly within the page. This might help illustrate why I stress the need for decent inline illustration and references.

I have very little data on M9, but the slider and contact design is very similar to M8, which we know had tactile versions from later M8 brochures. Again, I don't know that such a switch has ever been seen, so we don't know what's inside them.

If you want to be a switch expert, though, then keeping things secret won't help your cause. There's a wiki there waiting for you — start writing up all this information and illustrating it. You've got a good camera and you know how to use it!

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7bit

28 Mar 2014, 23:10

I just don't have not much time ...
:roll:

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

29 Mar 2014, 08:36

@ Daniel Beardsmore

Please take it easy, 7bit's joke is just an obvious reference to ripster, who didn't stop calling himself
"the number one keyboard expert on planet earth":
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/btc ... ml?#p13762
(just one of numerous examples)

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Daniel Beardsmore

07 Apr 2014, 19:56

I've checked with ZF US and they've checked with Cherry Germany — no record of an M5 switch at all.

This is all I could find myself:

http://www.armyproperty.com/product/01963/M51-0150/

Those are marked "SWITCH,PUSH" and M61 is marked "SWITCH,KEYBOARD". This may be a red herring. I shall contact them also and see what they say.

And that's it. M5 is so old, that no-one alive remembers it.

Does the label on the box (citing M51-…) have a date of manufacture on it, or any other clues?

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7bit

07 Apr 2014, 20:24

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:I've checked with ZF US and they've checked with Cherry Germany — no record of an M5 switch at all.

This is all I could find myself:

http://www.armyproperty.com/product/01963/M51-0150/

Those are marked "SWITCH,PUSH" and M61 is marked "SWITCH,KEYBOARD". This may be a red herring. I shall contact them also and see what they say.

And that's it. M5 is so old, that no-one alive remembers it.

Does the label on the box (citing M51-…) have a date of manufacture on it, or any other clues?
Ta-Daaa!
:-)
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Sadly, no date on the box. Seems to be from 1980s, but might even be from early 90s.
:roll:

Maybe the Cherry logo on the box tells us a little bit ...
:?

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Madhias
BS TORPE

07 Apr 2014, 20:57

[Offtopic] Wow, i really like the name "CHERRY MIKROSCHALTER GMBH". Cool. Wondering if there's an old abandoned Cherry factory somewhere.

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Daniel Beardsmore

07 Apr 2014, 22:24

7bit wrote:Maybe the Cherry logo on the box tells us a little bit ...
:?
I doubt it. That design (albeit with green leaves) was in use in 1972 and still in use in 1994.

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Daniel Beardsmore

08 Apr 2014, 21:09

It gets worse.

This is from a 1982 catalogue (I don't know which) — apparently M5 is not mentioned anywhere else in that catalogue at all.

Note that now we have M4 as well.

Maybe we should call it the "Cherry M-3/-2/-1/0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7 Series" …
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Daniel Beardsmore

08 Apr 2014, 23:21

OK, so M51 is confirmed. I've added the Burroughs M51-0131 specification drawing to [wiki]Cherry M5[/wiki]. (Many thanks to Ed at ZF US for his digging!)

Ironically, it is also "T" mount: nothing anywhere accounts for the "+" mount of the ones we've ended up with.

I'm now confused about M1, too. The sheet Ed found marked "M11-0101" is dated 1979. However, in terms of part numbers, the introduction of MX saw a change of series ID from 9 to X, e.g. M9 → MX was M93A-11NN, to MX1A-11NN (for example). "M11-0101" should be M1, just as M61 is M6 series, and M71 is M7 series.

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7bit

08 Apr 2014, 23:44

Where can we download all those catalogues?
:o

M4-M7 series should be enough.

Seems it is something else that distinguishes M4 to M7.

Are there any other confirmed model numbers, or just my M51-0131 ?

Seems dual is + and straight is |.

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Apr 2014, 01:22

The picture above is the only page I got — M5 is apparently not mentioned anywhere else in whatever catalogue that is, so it's only able to confirm that the part numbers are officially classified as Cherry keyboard switches of some kind, and that they were on sale in 1982. We don't know why there are switches there that aren't in the Keyboards and Switches catalogue 1982. 1982 was M7/8/9, so this may be a list of products sold only for spare parts, which if true, would prove that M5/6 and M7 are different in some way, even if there is seemingly no evidence to support that.

Officially, M6 and earlier no longer exist, nor does M10 or M11 — this information is all gone from Cherry US and Germany; M7 is the oldest switch on record now in the US. What Ed is turning up seems to all be oddments of information in the US office that, mercifully, isn't lost. I don't know the specifics of the storage and organisation beyond that. That he found a sheet for the same switch you have may be something to do with this being the former Cherry US (Burroughs being American), while the catalogue may be from Germany; yet, it's not the same keycap mount ...

If you check the spec sheet for M51-0131, you'll see that it used to be M51-0129 at one stage. I don't understand enough about draughting to understand the details, which is why I've not cited a year for the specification: there are several, and I don't know which ones correspond to which part numbers, nor what is supposed to have occurred on these dates.

Dual appears to be two sliders straddling a centre LED: see M71 in the 1982 catalogue. (I don't see that design in 1972 or 1973)

It's nothing short of confusing.

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7bit

09 Apr 2014, 08:42

Would be great to get all the material scanned, not just a page here and a page there.
:-)

I've renamed an almost orphaned page:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_catalogues

Or mabe it should be
Cherry catalogues and data sheets.

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Apr 2014, 09:19

No doubt, but I don't wish to impose too much! Maybe Robin will find some more spare catalogues to sell off.

Sorry, I'm a ninny — he did cite the source: Cherry Keyboards catalog #KB79-2R dated May 1982

It may be a US catalogue.

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Apr 2014, 19:52

Wow, Ed already scanned in the whole catalogue, expecting me to ask for it! I'll collect it from their FTP later.

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7bit

09 Apr 2014, 19:56

Great! Thanks!
:ugeek:

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