deskthority

Matias wrote:fossala, why the inflamatory language?

Just google Topre switch and you'll find no shortage of people saying it's a hybrid, not mechancial. What I said is not controversial at all.

In fact, if you check Topre's own website, they don't say anywhere that it's mechanical. They call it an "electrostatic capacitive non-contact switch". They even compare it to a regular rubber dome...

http://www.topre.co.jp/e/products/comp/key_point.html

OK, you are not addressing the other matter. There are vintage switches I bet that are quieter.
EDIT: Does your claim activating a switch or botteming out (that can be as loud as you want)?

Matias wrote:fossala, why the inflamatory language?

Just google Topre switch and you'll find no shortage of people saying it's a hybrid, not mechancial. What I said is not controversial at all.

In fact, if you check Topre's own website, they don't say anywhere that it's mechanical. They call it an "electrostatic capacitive non-contact switch". They even compare it to a regular rubber dome...

http://www.topre.co.jp/e/products/comp/key_point.html

Not inflammatory, correct.

I can't see any links to a proper test that shows them to be the quietest, is it just a marketing gimmick?

Dang.

If I got so steamed up about every arguable marketing claim, I could pull a train!

fossala wrote:

Matias wrote:fossala, why the inflamatory language?

Just google Topre switch and you'll find no shortage of people saying it's a hybrid, not mechancial. What I said is not controversial at all.

In fact, if you check Topre's own website, they don't say anywhere that it's mechanical. They call it an "electrostatic capacitive non-contact switch". They even compare it to a regular rubber dome...

http://www.topre.co.jp/e/products/comp/key_point.html

OK, you are not addressing the other matter. There are vintage switches I bet that are quieter.

Okay, but since I've already addressed the first matter, clearly disproving the false statement you made about Topre switches, can I accuse you of being a liar now? Can I sue you in a European court?

fossala wrote:EDIT: Does your claim activating a switch or botteming out (that can be as loud as you want)?

Sorry, I don't understand your question. Can you please rephrase?

It's just marketing hype then?

haha, what a nice consumer literacy fossala has...

Anyway, the word 'mechanical' is unuseful, meaningless or even more harmful in discussion. People have their own definition of this word and which is not same as any others.

I view Model M's less mechanical than topre.

This is a very interesting usage of 'mechanical' for me.

Actually, you know, this discussion of "mechanical" really deserves its own thread. Going to make one now...

...and done: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/we- ... t3930.html

I hate marketing lies as much as the next guy, but when you're comparing a production product range to decrepit hardware from the 80s, that's just dumb. Good luck connecting a keyboard harvested from a Commodore 64 to a Windows or Macintosh computer and selling that to people! You'll need a lot more lies to make that marketable to the wider world …

That said, I do disagree with keyboards marketed as "silent", as that is, quite frankly, absolute and utter rubbish. Silence is not a qualifiable concept: there either is sound, or there is silence.

(I don't really consider Topre switches mechanical either, but keyboard terminology is a mess. "Rubber dome" has no inherent indication of quality, nor does "membrane" (despite both terms being used disparagingly), and "mechanical" just indicates moving parts – ruling out rubber domes is a bit of a stretch. That said, the Model M is definitely more mechanical than a Topre as you have a hammer that is driven off the shockwave from the spring, which works the membrane contact switch. The Topre mechanism simply uses a rubber dome to compress a spring.)

This is the problem, when I said less mechanical I meant more like a RD keyboard.

Mechanical, the keyboardist jargon edition:

When two or more solid parts come in and out of physical contact with each other to create some effect (i.e. close a circuit, make a noise, or create a sensation of feedback).

IMO, Topres aren't mechanical. They just feel good enough to place them in the keyboard enthusiast's repertoire.

Its like talking about fruits and nuts: If you like to cook then having to classify them according to the rules of botany or genealogy would be a drag.

Now, to get into epic level pedantry... a mylar sheet ain't liquid, gas, or plasma, it's a solid. (Granted, one that's flexible at extremely low force, but the conductive elements in a Cherry or Alps switch are flexible at fairly low force, too.)

So, using that definition means that a rubber dome is mechanical switching, and a Model F isn't!

What about: "The quietest mechanical switch."

trax wrote:What about: "The quietest mechanical switch."

Is it though?

Can we please stop derailing this topic with discussions about "What is a mechanical keyboard?" and "Is it lying to exaggerate in ads and can we sue people for it?" None of this is useful to us and I know that many people here are interested in the new switch. How about we discuss some more appropriate topics: How soon can we get the switch? How much will it cost?

Or how about a review of the board from someone? I will get one but they will only be available in Europe in january...

I am genuinely interested, how quiet is the switch?

This YouTube video suggests that it's reasonable for a mechanical, being quieter than plate-mount Cherry switches. What I find curious about that video is how much quieter the QuickFire Rapid is compared to the other Cherry boards*– sounds like a PCB mount from that video, although the sound quality is pretty terrible.

I'm guessing that the sound profile will be similar to PCB-mounted Cherry switches, which to be fair would still be very quiet for ALPS, as ALPS tactile switches make a LOT of noise!

[Edit: Edgar Matias posted yesterday over at GeekHack: "I'm putting together some videos today comparing the sound of the new switch vs. Cherry and Clicky ALPS. I'll also get some photos of the switch posted."

*I didn't mean in comparison to the QP
]

A caveat with recordings:

As a note, when I was recording sound samples of my own keyboards, I found that all the mechanical recordings came out roughly the same level. Cherry MX brown and Alps CM blue sound similarly loud, despite blue complicated Alps being ridiculously noisy in reality. The Tactile Pro 3's Fukkas were also relatively similar in volume in the recordings. (I made them for my TP3 review and decided against posting them, perhaps as they were all so inaccurate when it came to volume.)

The issue may be that my rubbish microphone doesn't pick up enough bass, and ALPS switches are bass-heavy, while Cherry brown switches in FILCO boards have a particularly high treble clack. The microphone's frequency response will have an effect on what you perceive. (The "control" recording of a Dell KB1421 is significantly quieter, despite that being a particularly loud keyboard for a dome – the hefty thock is missing from the recording, but you get all the ping from the Alps switches.)

I also remember that Ripster's recordings of keyboards were made in such a way that all the "underneath" sounds of scratching and scraping were picked up in a way that bore no semblance to how a keyboard sounds to the operator. His recordings made all keyboards sound horrendous.

Sound recording is so hard – you can troll YouTube for recordings of a switch you're familiar with (e.g. Cherry brown) and find so many recordings that sound nothing like your own keyboard. Local acoustics play a part in that as well – desk surface, wall surface etc.

TL;DR Don't trust recordings

Icarium wrote:Can we please stop derailing this topic with discussions about "What is a mechanical keyboard?" and "Is it lying to exaggerate in ads and can we sue people for it?" None of this is useful to us and I know that many people here are interested in the new switch. How about we discuss some more appropriate topics: How soon can we get the switch? How much will it cost?

I agree.

The switches will cost $100 for a box of 800pcs.

We're also planning to sell 200pcs packs, which will be less expensive to ship.

Or how about a review of the board from someone? I will get one but they will only be available in Europe in january...

Okay, here's the first mainstream magazine review...

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/digita ... es/26.html

Also, I got a hold of a Das Keyboard with Browns and a Razer with Blues, to do a quickie sound comparison video.

Computer power user, comschmuter power schmuser.

Why not send a review unit to deskthority?

webwit wrote:Why not send a review unit to deskthority?

Yes, we're sending one to Mr. Interface for review.

Matias wrote:

webwit wrote:Why not send a review unit to deskthority?

Yes, we're sending one to Mr. Interface for review.

And I am very eager to video-review this new keyboard.

Could not believe my eyes when I read matias made their own switch and I'm really curious as to how they perform.

Matias is also sending me a batch of the new switches so they will go inside my switch sample bags....

Mrinterface wrote:Could not believe my eyes when I read matias made their own switch and I'm really curious as to how they perform.

We didn't really have much choice. It was the only way to do it.

[Account and posts deleted on request]

cactux wrote:^ Are you sending the whole keyboard or just the switches?

Both

[Account and posts deleted on request]

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:TL;DR Don't trust recordings

Most cameras have microphones with automatic gain circuitry. They will tend to make different sounds seem to be the same loudness.

So the trick is to display a loudness meter and/or use a mic/recorder without automatic gain.

Personally I didn't use a camera (just some rubbishy old circular Apple mike ;-) and the quieter Dell recording to me suggested a lack of AGC, as I was only using Sound Recorder in XP. The sound card drivers could have been playing tricks.

However, AGC is something I fear may be upsetting other recordings, although the issues they are many.

Will the tactile pro come to pc too? what kind of switches does it use?

maxrunner wrote:Will the tactile pro come to pc too? what kind of switches does it use?

Yes, I expect it will, but right now we are trying to keep up with demand for the Quiet Pro. We are currently sold out of both PC and Mac models.

Interesting. Thanks, i think i'm interested in both for PC. WIll you have iso models on european shops?

regards,