[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Yes red I have some new production barrels and flippers (no springs) available - but not a full set's worth of barrels.

We have faced significant factory delays, not from any one component but from several. Please check out the project web site's blog posts for details on the challenges bringing back 1980s manufacturing.

However the factory is back on track now and is in production on the remaining parts. The factory should ship everything around the end of Q1 (March/April). The key molds should be ready early next month and the remaining major parts should finish up this month (inner assembly, ultra compact cases, springs, etc.). I will check every keyboard before it ships and will not ship something below my standards. Fortunately the factory will be doing the assembly and quality control - I will just be doing the final checks to make sure everything works and looks well.

Thanks everyone for your patience with this project. We are lucky to be able to bring back these great keyboards and the wait will be well worth it!
Ellipse

Unread post01 Dec 2017, 21:24

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Korzenowski wrote:Never mind SSKs, it's about time we got together and put pressure on Ellipse to pull his finger out and get control of this bloody project.

And if you can't do that, start offering refunds. Patience is one thing, but 18+ months for a keyboard is not acceptable. I know it's a big and difficult project, but the project manager's job is to take control and sort out the problems.

Paul

Normal part of being in ANY Group Buy where the time lines are broken or stretched beyond any consideration BUT here Ellipse has been totally honest through out this development and manufacture.

He didn't run away like most thieving Felchers would do at "Geekhack Central". Instead he is still here answering all and everyone's questions relating to this once in a Lifetime Project.

Because this has never been done before, here is the current FACT - relying upon others (manufacturers) in various countries to meet his specifications is an almost impossible task so your suggestion, would be to accept the lowest quality and move on to finish this project quickly?

When I laid my money down I knew the herculean task that was ahead of Ellipse, simply because I deal with nearly every day merchants and manufacturers around the globe and what misery shall befall him. He is making something that isn't made anymore and for good reason, it's complicated beyond any reason yet he (Ellipse) refuses to give up and accept any mediocre standard connected to materials and finish, with this project.

That is why I am with him till the End, I want the MOST perfect F77 keyboard that could ever be made by hand sitting in front of me. If it means the timelines get pushed further back than so be it, I still have a couple more years left in me and if not, my daughter's will take over with this waiting.

I know what's coming and it shall be GRAND beyond what any form of English that could be used in describing this Keyboard :D .
Last edited by Elrick on 02 Dec 2017, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
Elrick
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Unread post02 Dec 2017, 00:40

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Ellipse wrote:Thanks everyone for your patience with this project. We are lucky to be able to bring back these great keyboards and the wait will be well worth it!

YES we are all waiting with excitement and of course the usual sense of anticipation for this once-in-a-lifetime keyboard.

As you are in finishing this, so that you could go on with your own Life because I do know this venture has cost you a lot more than what you are willing to disclose to us.

All I can say, is a Thank You for doing this :) .
Elrick
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Unread post02 Dec 2017, 00:48

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Update on the case colors: Carolina Blue limited edition ultra compact anodized cases are now available to order - if interested please order 125 units of the store item "$1 increments." This color is just for the ultra compact cases.

Also someone told me about a meetup in NJ on 2/10/18 - I hope to attend and bring the keyboards in case anyone's interested in trying out these keyboards in person.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb...10th_2018/
Ellipse

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Ellipse wrote:Update on the case colors: Carolina Blue limited edition ultra compact anodized cases are now available to order - if interested please order 125 units of the store item "$1 increments." This color is just for the ultra compact cases.

Also someone told me about a meetup in NJ on 2/10/18 - I hope to attend and bring the keyboards in case anyone's interested in trying out these keyboards in person.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb...10th_2018/
Is this $125 in addition to the $100 cost of the case (if I want an extra case).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Vizir

Unread post02 Dec 2017, 15:24

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Yes correct.
Ellipse

Unread post02 Dec 2017, 15:48

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Here are the updated project stats!

F77 518
F62 243
Compact F77 125
Compact F62 74
Grand Total 960

Extra Flipper and Spring 2527
Extra Barrel 1556
4 Extra bumpers 291
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 210
FirstAidKit 180
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 128
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 121
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 108
Unprinted 1U key 89
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 71
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 68
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 63
Key Cap Puller 39
Extra F77 Case 39
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 26
Extra PCB 5
Controller 4
Extra Case 3
Extra top inner assembly 3
Extra box + protective custom foam 1

Case Orders, Excl. Extra Cases
F77
Color: Industrial Gray 268
Color: Off-White/Beige 175
Color: Black 66
Color: True Red 4
Color: PANTONE 14-5002 TPX Silver Gray 3
Color: Another color 2
F77 Total 518

F62
Color: Off-White/Beige 115
Color: Industrial Gray 79
Color: Black 38
Color: True Red 9
Color: Another color 1
Color: Silver Gray 1
F62 Total 243

Compact F77
Color: Black 77
Color: Regular Gray 47
Color: Carolina Blue 1
Compact F77 Total 125

Compact F62
Color: Black 46
Color: Standard Gray 25
Color: Carolina Blue 1
Color: Another color 1
Color: Regular Gray 1
Compact F62 Total 74
Grand Total 960

Key Sets, Excl. Extra Sets
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 669
Keys: Black unprinted keys 99
Keys: International layout (pls specify which one on the checkout page) 74
Keys: Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 74
Keys: Use your own keys 35
Keys: APL Keys 3
Keys: Blue printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 2
Keys: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 1
Keys: ANSI Enter (default horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout), Model M keys 1
keys: Brilliant white printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
Grand Total 960

Layout summary:
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 479
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 225
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 153
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 80
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 4
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 4
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 3
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 2
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
Grand Total 960

Breakdown of layout options by keyboard type:
F77
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 286
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 88
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 79
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 50
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 4
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 3
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 2
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 2
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
F77 Total 518

F62
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 97
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 93
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 33
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 14
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 3
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 1
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
F62 Total 243

Compact F77
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 73
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 21
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 19
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 12
Compact F77 Total 125

Compact F62
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 28
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 27
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 13
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 4
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
Compact F62 Total 74
Grand Total 960

Bumper Type
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes) 73
Bumper type: 2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo) 72
Bumper type: 4 Cork 44
Bumper type: 4 square 34
Bumper type: 4 dome (middle of photo) 22
Bumper type: 2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 19
Bumper type: 2 dome + 2 square 14
Bumper type: 2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 12
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers 1
Grand Total 291

F77 Right Side Block
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 386
0-9 and cursor keys 192
Blank 62
Other 2
0-9 and cursor keys, blue unprinted keys for 5 and 0 1
Grand Total 643
Ellipse

Unread post02 Dec 2017, 15:59

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Those are the project stats, but can you post a list of what's actually completed and, technically, ready to ship? E.g.

- Keys, regular, 200/300 Completed and ready to ship.

etc.
PancakeMSTR

Unread post05 Dec 2017, 20:37

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So what's the current shipping window on these? Are they close?
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Unread post11 Dec 2017, 18:49

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JoesWorkAccount wrote:So what's the current shipping window on these? Are they close?

It's already 12th of December and if he sends any keyboards out today ONLY the people who are close to his location will receive their keyboards.

Anyone living on the arsehole tip of this planet, will get nada within this year.

Not worried because am looking forward to 2018, the year of my F77 keyboard delivery :mrgreen: .
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 09:26

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Updates on the spring research - samples matched original XT springs!

Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.

In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound - many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I'd like.

The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don't worry I won't be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing - who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.

I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released - not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!

I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.

Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.
Ellipse

Unread post13 Dec 2017, 04:33

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Very nice to hear, but not unexpected. Just as the Japanese metallurgists reign supreme in fine cutlery and swordsmithing, they reign supreme in this the most noble of arts, springsmithing. A wire forged by skilled grandmasters in the kiln built by their great grandfathers.

The wire is of such incredible springiness and Qi force, it needs a year for the surrounding universe to settle back to equilibrium after being subjected to these springs, hence the sound reaching eargasmic levels only after a full year.

On a more serious note, great news! I hope we eventually learn the full mystery of the springs, i think you could do a tell-all autobiography once the last keyboard has shipped. I'd buy it and probably a fair quota of the GB participants would. How many keyboards have a companion book?
yac

Unread post13 Dec 2017, 07:57

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Ellipse wrote:Updates on the spring research - samples matched original XT springs!

I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!

Same here :D .

The louder - the BETTER.

This keyboard shall be used by people who don't care about silence that is why it's called the Model-F, meaning F##K Off to anyone who want's a quiet keyboard ;) .
Elrick
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Unread post13 Dec 2017, 08:11

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yac wrote:How many keyboards have a companion book?

... and written with the very same keyboard, to boot.
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Unread post13 Dec 2017, 18:40

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Yes I was thinking of writing a book on the prototyping/production story and also about Model F keyboards (after all the orders ship), of course typed on a Model F!
Ellipse

Unread post14 Dec 2017, 03:40

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Ellipse wrote:Yes I was thinking of writing a book on the prototyping/production story and also about Model F keyboards (after all the orders ship), of course typed on a Model F!
Do it, I'll buy a copy.
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Unread post14 Dec 2017, 19:57

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Ellipse wrote:Yes I was thinking of writing a book on the prototyping/production story and also about Model F keyboards (after all the orders ship), of course typed on a Model F!

ONLY if you have the time. Writing and distributing this diary/production of this keyboard would be like Icing on a Grand cake BUT have you got the time to do this?

Writing and presenting a 'book' on this 'Journey' (love the American Portrayal of that Word) would be extremely nice but I don't want it produced, if it'll take away the time from finishing all these keyboards and sending them out to everyone around the globe, as soon as possible.
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Unread post14 Dec 2017, 22:38

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Thanks for the updates Ellipse.
In for the long haul, and I appreciate your frankness regarding timings, and the pursuit of quality over speed.
Cheers.
cods

Unread post19 Dec 2017, 01:50

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@Ellipse: I've been away for quite some time, mainly because of a major research project. I am just checking in today. Good to see that you are still perfecting the product and keeping us updated.

Your pursuit of "that sound" reminds me of Jimmy Stewart in the movie, The Glenn Miller Story, depicting the long search for the special big band sound that became the hallmark of the group's music and is still appreciated today in songs such as "Moonlight Serenade".

Thanks for your ongoing efforts.
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Unread post27 Dec 2017, 19:46

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Hypersphere wrote:Your pursuit of "that sound" reminds me of Jimmy Stewart in the movie, The Glenn Miller Story, depicting the long search for the special big band sound that became the hallmark of the group's music and is still appreciated today in songs such as "Moonlight Serenade".

Thanks for your ongoing efforts.

So true.

Using any keyboard has to have that SPECIAL sound and when it's heard, the user will go into 'bliss-territory'.

For me personally, I would be using my F77 with Elvis Presley's hit;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1_6F-nCaw

Move yourself..... :D
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Unread post28 Dec 2017, 00:50

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Some quick updates:

The inside foam has completed production.
The key molds will be finished up this week and the first tests will be done next week.
The factory was sent one of my XT key sets so that they can exactly reproduce the texture, colors, and other characteristics of the original.
New key molds (1).jpg

New key molds (2).jpg

New key molds (3).jpg
Ellipse

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We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!

How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
Ellipse

Unread post05 Jan 2018, 23:39

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Ellipse wrote:We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!

For a very brief SECOND I thought you had finally built 13 keyboards, ready to ship.

:( :? :cry: :|
Last edited by Elrick on 10 Jan 2018, 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post06 Jan 2018, 01:19

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Ellipse wrote:How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?

I can't give you any specific color codes but as an inspiration, I think the color should be similar to the Carbon Black keyset sold by Originative
strah
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Unread post07 Jan 2018, 22:04

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I think Realforce black-on-black keys have the best gray I've seen
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 05:32

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Totally realforce black on black.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 17:32

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I echo the Originative Carbon Blacks as an inspiration. Basically dark enough that upon first glance you don't see the printing, but light enough that I don't have to get my face in the keys to see them. I've never held a Realforce 104UB, but Originative says that their Carbon Blacks are inspired by it.
duncancmt

Unread post11 Jan 2018, 23:43

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I like the Topre Realforce black on dark gray caps but I would go a shade or two lighter for the Model F caps. The Real Force caps are basically blanks unless they are in a well lit room.
tron
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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 23:53

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It would probably be best if someone with a dark gray Realforce set could send Ellipse some spare keys for reference so he could maybe send them over to China for them to get the color right
strah
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Unread post12 Jan 2018, 14:21

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The keys to which you are referring to are listed as: "Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys - Printed (Dark Gray)" on the site for $55, right? I've already placed an order for them, and I agree that the realforce black-on-black would be awesome (or maybe only just a smidge lighter).

I may be biased as my original order is black with black [unprinted] keys. I like the low-profile, tactical style :)

So, just to be certain, these are the same dark gray keys that everyone is referring to right?
Sp33ls

Unread post12 Jan 2018, 19:47

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