[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse wrote: I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.

So you sent them a very important video detailing sound differences? What happens if the operator is stone cold deaf?

You have to understand everyone has differing rates of hearing, depending upon where they have worked in certain LOUD factories, throughout China/US.

Congratulate you for trying something here but do be aware relying upon 'individuals' to make decisions with testing and audio, might not bring you the results you are ultimately hoping for.

If it can be tested via strict machine/computer control leaving out humanity altogether, then you may have something that will work.
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 09:53

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
Elrick the sound is an important part of QC but they also have detailed numbers on the tolerances.
Ellipse

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 12:49

X
Ellipse
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 17:24
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Brand New Model F F77 Keyboard
DT Pro Member: -
 
Ignoring efficiency can these springs be reliably attached by hand? For example if I have a vintage Model F with rusted springs and wanted to replace the springs are there any caveats to doing it by hand?
JP!
User avatar

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 13:45

User avatar
X
JP!
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: 01 May 2017, 03:49
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Currently a Model M
Main mouse: Steel Series Sensei
Favorite switch: Beam Spring
DT Pro Member: 0194
 
 
"Two things in this world can make life meaningful: having the strength to forge your own destiny, to live by your own rules, and not be swayed by the whims and wishes of others; and really sticking it to some stranger on the internet."
Ellipse wrote:Elrick the sound is an important part of QC but they also have detailed numbers on the tolerances.

You are correct by SOUND which can be measured via Audio Recording. Hence you can leave the human element out by relying solely upon detailed sound measurement and comparison.

Just have this massive concern when it comes to relying upon some total stranger's own hearing, verses the detailed sound recording for a perfectly balanced and correct comparison.

Suspect the computer's ability to match sound's would be far superior than relying upon some strange (untested) human ear.
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 01:25

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
JP I only offer assembled springs and flippers, but yes you can assemble by hand.
Ellipse

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 02:12

X
Ellipse
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 17:24
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Brand New Model F F77 Keyboard
DT Pro Member: -
 
The original sound and feel of the original Model F (4704) is outstanding in my opinion. And with so many things in life, it is very subjective. I am using an IBM BeamSpring 3278 daily and at times also Blue Alps. They all have their beauty and special place in my heart, but when it comes to pure preference, I can only highlight that well attached springs on the flippers combined with all the other bits and pieces of the Model F (keycaps, case, barrels, etc) are unmatched.
darkcruix
User avatar

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 12:11

User avatar
X
darkcruix
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 16 Jan 2018, 20:38
Location: Germany
Main keyboard: IBM 3278 Beam Spring
Main mouse: Logitech MX Master
Favorite switch: Buckling Spring & Beam Spring
DT Pro Member: 0209
 
To support the idea that a person's hearing and opinion of sound is not a lesser tool for determining quality, look to professional musicians. No one would or should ever trust the sound of a recording over hearing the sound for themselves in person. A pianist doesn't look at a catalogue, pick a $100k shiny black beast and buy it without playing it themselves. You may say this doesn't apply to mass production or this project, but I think it has its place, and I trust Ellipse to be my expert musician knowing what he's listening for.
Chalba

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 15:29

X
Chalba
 
Posts: 43
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 14:00
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Ibm model m
Favorite switch: Buckling spring
DT Pro Member: -
 
Ellipse, do you have an estimate on how long you'll keep extra spring+flipper assemblies and cases in stock after the keyboards are done being made, or will it be an instance of "while supplies last?"
FXT
User avatar
XT

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 21:56

User avatar
X
FXT
XT
 
Posts: 258
Joined: 31 Dec 2017, 18:29
Location: North Carolina
Main keyboard: F107/F122/XT/3278
Favorite switch: Buckling springs
DT Pro Member: 0204
 
FXT it will be while supplies last. I expect to make some extras of all the parts and sell them at higher prices to help recoup cost overruns.
Ellipse

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 22:35

X
Ellipse
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 17:24
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Brand New Model F F77 Keyboard
DT Pro Member: -
 
Chalba wrote:You may say this doesn't apply to mass production or this project, but I think it has its place, and I trust Ellipse to be my expert musician knowing what he's listening for.

This isn't were all of the production of springs is being done at Drake's or Taylor Swift's studio's ;) .

They're being made thousands of kilometers away in a factory and as I understand Ellipse is relying upon the production crew on the assembly line to listen to the springs and flippers operating together giving a certain sound for selection.

If I was there on the production line I wouldn't care what they sounded like, they ALL get put into a bag and shipped to the Client's Premises.

The luxury of relying upon "NONE musicians" to choose which springs give off that precise sound that is desperately required, has now gone into the realms of pure fiction. Suspect Ellipse will require to personally go through ALL the springs himself when putting together his keyboards one by one, to get that unique sound he's been wanting.

Sorry but like what you said before, it takes a specialized "Musician" to select that perfect sound to string together a high selling song for paid-up listeners (real life).
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 23:04

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
Elrick, I don't think anyone is listening on the assembly line - that... that would be something I'd want a video of lol. They just have tolerances and measurements that the sub assemblies have to meet. If I understood Ellipse's post correctly, he just meant that he was using the sound video to reinforce why spec has to be met.
consolation
User avatar

Unread post29 Nov 2018, 01:58

User avatar
X
consolation
 
Posts: 160
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 14:05
Location: NZ
Main keyboard: Norbatouch
Main mouse: deathadder 3.5g
Favorite switch: If I had to pick ONE switch only - orange Alps
DT Pro Member: -
 
Yep that's the idea consolation. Once the other two machines are set to spec they should produce the 95%+ approval rate of spring/flipper attacher Machine 1. Elrick is correct as well in that I have asked them to do the basic sound testing as part of the QC - essentially a spring with some reverb is good, but with a buzzing sound or no reverb means it should be detached and reattached, and the spring should potentially be discarded. I am not being overly particular on the length of the reverb or whatnot.

Also given this research it may be possible to mod the springs by hand if you prefer springs with less reverb - just press the springs down all the way leaving no space between bottom rung of the spring and the base of the nub on the flipper. Given the end of the spring and the last rung of the spring obviously not being a full loop, this means the spring would be pressed in a way that makes the spring lean slightly to one side so that the entire bottom surface of the spring is as close to the base of the nub as possible. I will not be modding this for any orders though.

Attached are the QC sound files. As a note these are just tests of a barrel, key, and flipper on a table top, not installed in a keyboard and they are not representative of how the keys will sound in the final keyboards. With all the foam, metal plates, and keys installed the keys are much lower in volume in line with many original Model F keyboards.
Attachments
good spring QC-not representative of key sound in keyboard.zip
(925.36 KiB) Downloaded 57 times
bad spring QC.zip
(846.9 KiB) Downloaded 50 times
Ellipse

Unread post30 Nov 2018, 21:58

X
Ellipse
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 17:24
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Brand New Model F F77 Keyboard
DT Pro Member: -
 
All I can say is, just as well I'm not doing QC; made me realise how much I destroyed my hearing working gigs without plugs - when I was young and dumb.
consolation
User avatar

Unread post30 Nov 2018, 22:19

User avatar
X
consolation
 
Posts: 160
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 14:05
Location: NZ
Main keyboard: Norbatouch
Main mouse: deathadder 3.5g
Favorite switch: If I had to pick ONE switch only - orange Alps
DT Pro Member: -
 
consolation wrote:All I can say is, just as well I'm not doing QC; made me realise how much I destroyed my hearing working gigs without plugs - when I was young and dumb.

Or working in factories dealing with diesel's and heavy machinery, over the years....
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post01 Dec 2018, 01:24

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)
green-squid
User avatar

Unread post01 Dec 2018, 12:09

User avatar
X
green-squid
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: 07 Oct 2017, 11:19
Location: Hungary
Main keyboard: Lexmark Dell Model M
Main mouse: Lenovo Scrollpoint optical
Favorite switch: Buckling Spring
DT Pro Member: -
 
Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.
Muirium
User avatar
µ

Unread post01 Dec 2018, 13:17

User avatar
X
Muirium
µ
 
Posts: 23054
Joined: 03 Feb 2013, 10:11
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
DT Pro Member: -
 
 
green-squid wrote:Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)

Lol, I thought the same thing.

Now I'm in college :roll:
Mattr567
User avatar

Unread post01 Dec 2018, 18:43

User avatar
X
Mattr567
 
Posts: 473
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 06:08
Main keyboard: Many things
Main mouse: G502
Favorite switch: Alps in general
DT Pro Member: -
 
Muirium wrote:Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.

Or maybe the Oprah Administration (after the 3rd World War) ;) .
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post02 Dec 2018, 02:54

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
green-squid wrote:Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)

Maybe try to get held back a year, just to be on the safe side?
consolation
User avatar

Unread post08 Dec 2018, 22:38

User avatar
X
consolation
 
Posts: 160
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 14:05
Location: NZ
Main keyboard: Norbatouch
Main mouse: deathadder 3.5g
Favorite switch: If I had to pick ONE switch only - orange Alps
DT Pro Member: -
 
Muirium wrote:Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.

Ah Mu, remember when the thread opened and it was titled "Brand new Model F 62/77 key delivered in 2016!" or something?
scottc
User avatar

Unread post08 Dec 2018, 22:48

User avatar
X
scottc
 
Posts: 5672
Joined: 06 Oct 2013, 21:09
Location: Remote locations in Europe
Main keyboard: GH60-HASRO 62g Nixies, HHKB Pro1 HS, Novatouch
Main mouse: Steelseries Rival 300
Favorite switch: Nixdorf 'Soft Touch' MX Black
DT Pro Member: -
 
scottc wrote:
Muirium wrote:Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.

Ah Mu, remember when the thread opened and it was titled "Brand new Model F 62/77 key delivered in 2016!" or something?

The "6" died and became a "9" ;)
Puree

Unread post08 Dec 2018, 23:21

X
Puree
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 08 Apr 2012, 18:02
Location: Belgique
Main keyboard: Ducky mini
Main mouse: G502
Favorite switch: x
DT Pro Member: -
 
Can we get a deadline
Nivlom_Drol-
User avatar

Unread post09 Dec 2018, 03:54

User avatar
X
Nivlom_Drol-
 
Posts: 48
Joined: 02 Dec 2018, 16:34
Location: United States
Main keyboard: IBM Unsaver
Favorite switch: Buckling Spring
DT Pro Member: -
 
So will these new Model F's get a proper inspection like the old Model F's? ;)

inspection.jpg
JP!
User avatar

Unread post09 Dec 2018, 18:06

User avatar
X
JP!
 
Posts: 1139
Joined: 01 May 2017, 03:49
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Currently a Model M
Main mouse: Steel Series Sensei
Favorite switch: Beam Spring
DT Pro Member: 0194
 
I have created a bottom inner assembly sticker with the user names of the early bird tooling volunteers and some other contributors to the project (engineering, artwork, etc.). Not sure if there will be another QC sticker as well. It is just me doing all the final QC after the factory's QC.
Ellipse

Unread post09 Dec 2018, 19:59

X
Ellipse
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 17:24
Location: United States
Main keyboard: Brand New Model F F77 Keyboard
DT Pro Member: -
 
Nivlom_Drol- wrote:Can we get a deadline

How? Are you volunteering to sit in a Chinese factory making sure it's all going smoothly?
consolation
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 06:23

User avatar
X
consolation
 
Posts: 160
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 14:05
Location: NZ
Main keyboard: Norbatouch
Main mouse: deathadder 3.5g
Favorite switch: If I had to pick ONE switch only - orange Alps
DT Pro Member: -
 
Ellipse wrote:Not sure if there will be another QC sticker as well. It is just me doing all the final QC after the factory's QC.

Then WE all want to see your Signature on any Label, anywhere on that keyboard.

Since you obviously didn't want your name on top of these fine keyboards then we are hoping your name appears elsewhere, so that we don't receive something blank and completely soulless from another factory.

Your name now carries Supreme Deskthority allegiance here, so we do expect it to be on our future made keyboards, somewhere, anywhere, so please make it happen.

YOU were the one to start all this and as we have all witnessed it, you shall be the very last one that will check and ship out our once in a Lifetime products.

You have to be proud of your name here because you are the last person alive, that shouldn't feel any negativity towards yourself and what you've achieved. My name is 'Mud' across all spectrum's yet your name represents true 'Hope' for the future.

Hoping to see your 'name' on your Keyboard, when it's finally delivered to my address - okay ;) .
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 07:12

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.
wobbled
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 09:29

User avatar
X
wobbled
 
Posts: 944
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 02:59
Location: UK
Main keyboard: HHKB Hipro
Main mouse: Microsoft IMO 1.1A White
Favorite switch: Capacitive Buckling Spring
DT Pro Member: 0192
 
wobbled wrote:You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.

+1
Khers
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 09:32

User avatar
X
Khers
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: 11 Sep 2014, 12:23
Location: Sweden
Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
Main mouse: Logitech G900
Favorite switch: Buckling Springs | Topre | Nixdorf Black
DT Pro Member: 0087
 
Khers wrote:
wobbled wrote:You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.

+1
These keyboards will be quite a legacy. Considering we're still talking about the originals, which are well over 30 years old, imagine if people will still be talking about Ellipse's keyboards in 2050!
Chyros
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 10:02

User avatar
X
Chyros
 
Posts: 4418
Joined: 28 Feb 2015, 22:04
Location: The Netherlands
Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
DT Pro Member: -
 
Chyros wrote:These keyboards will be quite a legacy. Considering we're still talking about the originals, which are well over 30 years old, imagine if people will still be talking about Ellipse's keyboards in 2050!

Only us here on DT which doesn't constitute the WORLD (who knows even if DT will still be around).

Personally don't go looking towards the future too far ahead simply because of what might happen next, due to such Toxic leadership on the current World stage.

If we all happen to reach 2050 (intact) suspect the only ones who will know anything about this keyboard are it's Owners and no one else. Down my street, most of the residents are interested in Voting for 'Goose-stepping' morons back into power, which won't go too well for our overall future.
Elrick
User avatar

Unread post10 Dec 2018, 10:37

User avatar
X
Elrick
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 31 Dec 2011, 01:36
Location: Greenmount, AUSTRALIA
Main keyboard: WASD
Main mouse: G400
Favorite switch: BOX Navy Switch, ALPs, Model-M
DT Pro Member: -
 
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sgtpopwell and 39 guests