Round 7 / ALGOL-style / Deadline 2018-11-30

Menuhin · 05 Jan 2017, 15:27

PollandAkuma wrote: ↑How much more expensive are the sets after the GB/as leftovers?

It's not "more expensive" but after the rebate period has passed, one doesn't get the 25% off for joining the GB.
Leftover kits are listed in their original price, and the "Grab bag kits" despite usually incomplete are the most economical usually at just a fraction of the original price.

7bit has extended the 25% off rebate deadline of Round 7 from some time in November 2016 to December 31st 2016, and according to previous Rounds, it is also possible that the rebate period of Round 7 be extended a bit more. I think as long as the invoice 7bot sends you has the rebate information, you can still get it 25% cheaper.

Just check them out, Grab Bag kits of Round 5 and Round 6 have some real goodies indeed.
wiki/R5_leftovers#Grab_bag_kits_WHITE
wiki/R6_leftovers#Grab_bag_kits

IronSunsetscales · 08 Jan 2017, 22:31

Mail received in the end, and paid up! Now the waiting can begin

Scottex · 10 Jan 2017, 21:18

So, I did the payment a few days ago but the bot keeps sending me the invoice
what could be happening?

IronSunsetscales · 11 Jan 2017, 11:42

Scottex wrote: ↑So, I did the payment a few days ago but the bot keeps sending me the invoice
what could be happening?

Yeah same here actually, did you happen to have sent more than one note on accident? I didn't, so in that case I'd like an answer too from someone

Menuhin · 11 Jan 2017, 13:56

Scottex wrote: ↑So, I did the payment a few days ago but the bot keeps sending me the invoice
what could be happening?

I think the bot receives updated information of payment for every invoice only about once per week because the updated information is sent by the money collectors to 7bit about once per week or sometimes not as frequent, and it depends on the money collector you are paying to.

Last time, the bot sent me updated invoice information after I paid for about 7-10 days.

neon_tom · 11 Jan 2017, 14:32

Scottex wrote:So, I did the payment a few days ago but the bot keeps sending me the invoice
what could be happening?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. It takes some time for everything to be updated. Give it a week or so and the payment should be applied.

Scottex · 11 Jan 2017, 15:52

ok, I'll give it some time then
Thanks guys

IronSunsetscales · 11 Jan 2017, 17:17

Thanks for clarification guys, I'll let the bot do it's thing

R4WBIT · 11 Jan 2017, 18:16

I know it's 99% too late, but if you could add the greece kit (ALGOM_GR_*) in violettcream, that would be amazing

nowai · 11 Jan 2017, 22:05

R4WBIT wrote: ↑I know it's 99% too late, but if you could add the greece kit (ALGOM_GR_*) in violettcream, that would be amazing

Just to avoid misunderstandings: Don't expect this groupbuy to go anywhere near production before 2018/19. The "deadline" is no real deadline and was only meant for the early-bird discount. (7bits deadlines are always very loose)

So if you want to add something just do it. You'll probably still be able to add things to your order by the end of the year.

adamcobabe · 12 Jan 2017, 02:55

Is it possible to get the numpad enter key with the symbol as an individual key?

Menuhin · 12 Jan 2017, 03:11

adamcobabe wrote: ↑Is it possible to get the numpad enter key with the symbol as an individual key?

I also want the Round 7 R1 grey Backslash/Tilde as an individual purchase as I am getting the cadet kit.

PollandAkuma · 12 Jan 2017, 12:04

Are there ortholinear sets in this? Might get the leftovers

monkeyplusplus · 13 Jan 2017, 18:22

Indeed, having ortho kits would be really nice. I love that there are pre-made ergodox kits (I use one every day, so I appreciate the official support), so it seems like it's something that could be done at least with blanks.

adamcobabe · 18 Jan 2017, 21:18

Is there a R3-PAGE UP and R4-PAGE DOWN?
Needed for White Fox or Smart 68, etc.

Like this guy.

caligo · 19 Jan 2017, 08:07

caligo wrote: ↑I'm not very fond of doing things like this publicly, but since my PMs dont get any response I guess I'm left with no option. I really don't like internet drama… Oh well, screw it. Here goes.

In October I paid for my R7 order. But the bot kept sending me invoices saying I hadn't paid, and the deadline for the rebate drew closer (should have anticipated that it would be pushed back, silly me). Looking through my transfer history, I couldn't see any outgoing payment to 7bits account. I assumed I had just messed up the initial payment somehow, and made a second transfer. But apparently my bank's web page was just acting up (they're trying out some kind of beta of their 'new and improved internet bank experience'). And now I have something like 238 USD in excess funds. That's of course on me. Or, well, on my bank I guess. And I can live with having to wait a while for that money, as long as I get it back. But 7bit has had my bank info for over a month now, and nothing happens.

I get that things can be forgotten. But when I send two reminders through PMs, and see that they are read but still don't get any money and not even a response, then I think it's fairly reasonable to become either annoyed or slightly worried. Annoyed, because if there really is no time to get it done at the moment (unlikely, since it takes a few minutes tops) then just saying so in a PM is what you'd expect someone to do. Worried, because it makes me wonder if the reason I get neither money nor response is that the money's not there anymore, but has gone into paying for R6 shipping or some other shenanigans.

I'm not trying to get out of paying for stuff I've ordered, nor cancel anything. I just want money back that was sent by mistake. I've sunk a few hundred dollars into R5–7 – I think that makes me entitled to at least a response, no? And if this is indicative of how things are managed when there's a slip-up, then maybe i should just jump ship on this whole R7 thing. Because a GB like this is built on trust and reciprocity, and honestly those two are quickly eroding as far as I'm concerned. If for some reason the money is not there to be transferred, I'd at least like to know.

Two months later, still no bank transfer – nor a response. At this point, I'm leaning towards just writing the whole thing off as a loss and move on. Sent a 'CLEARALL' to the bot, more on principle than anything else, but I doubt I'll ever see that money. Does that count as rage-quitting a group buy? I guess it does. Oh well.

A while back a user PM:ed me asking if buying R6 leftovers was a wise thing to do, given that there where some rumblings about trouble with PayPal collectors etc. Based on my experience with R5, I said yes. Had I been asked the same thing today, I'm not sure what I would have answered. And that's honestly a damn shame.

I really like my R5 keycaps, and I'm sure the R6 and R7 stuff will be just as awesome when/if it finally gets produced. But I'm kind of fed up with this part of it. There are some quirks to this GB process that are quite charming in their old-school way, but for me personally we're way past that point of quaint and well into WTF territory by now. I can live with wait times and bots, but there has to be some basic level of reciprocity.

7bit · 19 Jan 2017, 17:09

Sorry, I could not keep up with this.

My current problem is that I need all my money to cover shipping costs.

Please wait one more month and I can send your money.

caligo · 19 Jan 2017, 20:19

Right, then I know what's up. Would it not have been easier to just say so in a PM two months ago?

But let me get this straight: the money paid for R7 is currently being used to cover the shipping costs of R6? See, that's what I was worried about. You do realise what a clusterfuck that will turn into if R6 phase 2 never gets off the ground? Maybe things are looking good on that front, I don't know. And I get that your focus is salvaging R6. But honestly: why should anyone join R7 before R6 is finished, if part of the deal is sharing the risks of a separate GB?

7bit · 20 Jan 2017, 14:01

Round 4, 5 and 6 pahe 1 leftovers are still contributing to ound 6, phase 2 and when this is done the huge amount of leftovers from Round 6 is contributing to Round 7.

If you want key kacp within a few weeks, you need to order what is in stock or buy from another group buy.

If you want to help thesde keys od Round 7 come true, you need to wait.

caligo · 20 Jan 2017, 15:47

I waited real patently for R5 without making a fuzz, for two years. Being patient is not the problem here – a lack of transparency is. For example, I'm fine with waiting a few months for a bank transfer if I'm actually told that's the deal – just sayin'.

Usually with GBs, the deal is that you pay money and that money is put in a pile. When that pile is large enough, an order can be made and the money is transferred to the manifacturer. If enough money is not amassed, then the thing falls through and people (hopefully) get some of their money back. At least that's my understanding of it.

But apparently, the money people pay for R7 doesn't go into said pile – they finance the shipping of R6 Phase 1, no? I don't think anyone has a problem with profits from previous rounds (e.g. sales of leftovers) helping finance more recent ones. After all, that does not affect the completion of those GBs. But effectively borrowing money from future GBs to cover unforseen costs in present ones is something else entirely. A Ponzi scheme, to be more precise, albeit one where noone's really making any money.

From what you're saying, it sounds like all the money recieved so far for R7 has actually gone towards R6. Is that the case? If so, what's the plan – that the profit margins on post-discount R7 orders will make up for that? None of this sounds like what I'd usually expect when signing up for a GB. In fact, it sounds more like a Kickstarter project or something.

7bit · 20 Jan 2017, 17:00

If we would keep the Round 7 money and only pay from Round 5 and 6 leftover sales, it will never work out.

It would mean we have money, but don't use it. Istead wait for more money to finally pay for the rest of the production. It is difficult enough with all those delays caused by Signature Plastics and people jumping off.

Once, SP has the money for the keys, we can do the refund businnes, but before I really don't want to have money refunded because all that does is further delay the whole thing.

Maybe I should make it more clear that we have to pay in full in advance and that there is no way to pay that money back, until the production is running.

$18168.50 has been collected for Round 7 (including unpaid orders) and I have keys in stock worth $16804.50 plus those I have not yet listed, plus my reserve to cover lost shippings ($2395 in stock kits), plus my own order ($3142, not yet packed). So let's say this is well balanced.

ps: When I look at this, maybe I should sell my own order ...

caligo · 20 Jan 2017, 19:04

Does that mean that the assets of this operation basically consist of inventory (i.e. leftovers + spare keys), and more or less no cash? And that it's "balanced" in the sense that selling the whole inventory will generate (nearly) enough money to finance producing the R7 stuff people have already ordered – if said inventory is sold?

I'm not sure I follow you, and I really hope I've misunderstood something here. Surely, the argument cannot be that people joining R7 have, in fact, effectively been buying R6 leftovers, but that everything will be okay as soon as those leftovers are sold and thus converted back to cash again?

7bit · 20 Jan 2017, 19:35

At least there is still that 25% pre-order rebate.

eddible · 21 Jan 2017, 14:02

Check out the update over at PMK...

"We are still waiting for funds for Round 6b. Once received, we will review the production schedule and provide an estimated completion date. Currently we are booked out to the end of 2017 in two-shot SA sets. Due to a number of factors, the main one being the overwhelming demand for custom SA sets, Round 6b will be the last of the Round orders we will produce in the foreseeable future."

oknytt · 21 Jan 2017, 15:14

But, but, but ... my ... my round 7 caps

Menuhin · 21 Jan 2017, 15:18

oknytt wrote: ↑But, but, but ... my ... my round 7 caps

Hope it can be scheduled in late 2017 to be produced in late 2018?

hansichen · 21 Jan 2017, 15:27

In my eyes this sounds like it is not worth it for SP to produce such a complicated (and probably low quantity) set in future. As the new group buy prices and the massdrop discount shows, SP is aiming for higher quantity orders in future. I dont think that they will produce more sets like it used to be in "normal" price range which will sadly end many group buy plans until there are new companies offering this keycap profile

Menuhin · 21 Jan 2017, 16:09

hansichen wrote: ↑In my eyes this sounds like it is not worth it for SP to produce such a complicated (and probably low quantity) set in future. As the new group buy prices and the massdrop discount shows, SP is aiming for higher quantity orders in future. I dont think that they will produce more sets like it used to be in "normal" price range which will sadly end many group buy plans until there are new companies offering this keycap profile

This is possibly the last chance to get the SA profile Symbolic keyboards key caps, given 7bit is a long time customer of SP. I don't think there'll be another 7bit who can run long-term productions with SP in the future.

caligo · 21 Jan 2017, 16:15

Judging by what SP says in that update, this is actually not a chance at all – the ship has already sailed, since R6 phase 2 will be the last 'Round' set they make. Now, 'forseeable future' does not necessarily mean 'forever'. But it does sound like they'll produce R6 phase 2 in the beginning of 2018 at the earliest, and R7 way later than than if at all.

eddible · 21 Jan 2017, 16:17

caligo wrote:Juding by what SP says in that update, this is actually not a chance at all – the ship has already sailed, since R6 phase 2 will be the last Round-set they make. Now, 'forseeable future' does not mean 'forever'. But it does sound like they'll produce R6 phase 2 in the beginning of 2018 at the earliest, and R7 way later than than if at all.

From their wording, I wonder if they've continued to be bombarded with emails from people asking them when they'll be doing phase 2. I imagine they've decided the hassle of that isn't worth it when they can just use Massdrop and not have to deal with much fuss from the community.