Does Your Ideal Mouse Exist?

qbadger wrote:What about wireless? Any recommendations for one of those?

Good question. Someone might wish to start a thread about wireless mice. I considered only wired (corded) mice in my reviews.
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Unread post05 Feb 2017, 14:31

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I have small hand 18cm x 8,5 cm. I used for 1 month one mionix avior 7000, but it was too long (about 1 cm) but really confortable and I used for 6 years one cm storm spawn, but after this month I can feel a little unconfortable feeling on my thumb (seems too little atm).
Do you have any idea? I hate 2 click on the right (like avior), I prefer totally clean or better with 2 key on the left (like spawn).
Thanks :D
DrOpBoX

Unread post07 Feb 2017, 20:20

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DrOpBoX wrote:I have small hand 18cm x 8,5 cm. I used for 1 month one mionix avior 7000, but it was too long (about 1 cm) but really confortable and I used for 6 years one cm storm spawn, but after this month I can feel a little unconfortable feeling on my thumb (seems too little atm).
Do you have any idea? I hate 2 click on the right (like avior), I prefer totally clean or better with 2 key on the left (like spawn).
Thanks :D

According to the following web page on average hand size, the average male hand is about 18.9 cm long and 8.4 cm wide.

http://www.theaveragebody.com/average_hand_size.php

So going by this, your hand would be somewhat below average in length and slightly above average in width (although they did not indicate the variance on these mean values).

My own hand is about 19 cm long and 9 cm wide, and I prefer large computer mice that are designed for a palm grip.

The information I found on the CM Storm Spawn mouse indicates that it is designed for a claw grip and that it has two buttons on its left side, which is characteristic of most mice that are intended for right-handed use. The Mionix Avior 7000 is an ambidextrous mouse, with two buttons on both the right and left sides of the mouse. If you do not like this arrangement, you should be looking for a mouse that is intended for right-hand use, so that it will most likely have two buttons on the left side of the mouse.

You might wish to give the Mionix Castor mouse a try. It is smaller than the Avior and has the more traditional arrangement of two buttons on its left side.
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Unread post07 Feb 2017, 21:33

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Thanks for the answer...I was looking to another mionix mouse, but the problem I think is the lenght, still over 12 cm like Avior. The shape is different, do u think can really change the dimensions problem?
I was thinking about zowie ec2a o maybe za13. I don't wanna go down in quality and material, this is why I'm going around these Brand.
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Unread post08 Feb 2017, 14:46

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I use this at the moment
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01...UTF8&psc=1

Its bloody fantastic for the price.
andrewjoy

Unread post08 Feb 2017, 16:06

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For fear of being branded a philistine, my favorite mouse (trackball actually) was the Microsoft Optical Trackball USB (X05-87475). Sadly, mine broke after years of use and was discontinued. Being a little on the "cult status" side of things when I looked for a replacement, I eventually settled with the Logitech M570 wireless trackball. I hate the little wireless dongle (would greatly prefer a bluetooth or wired solution, actually, since I frequently throw it in my bag between home and work and forget it in the USB port of the keyboard).

Overall these two are about the same overall size, are thumb-trackballs (which I find more comfortable) and have enough buttons to be useful. I don't do much graphics work, so an awesome keyboard is more important than an awesome mouse, but both of these are extremely comfortable.
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Unread post10 Feb 2017, 13:43

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I have the g403 now and ive gotta say, its pretty close to perfect. Sensor is rediculous, shape is Better than deathadder.. Its getting close now : ]
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Unread post12 Feb 2017, 13:42

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zzuper wrote:I have the g403 now and ive gotta say, its pretty close to perfect. Sensor is rediculous, shape is Better than deathadder.. Its getting close now : ]

Thanks for the post. I looked up the G403 and I like its simplicity. How is the scroll wheel on the G403? The scroll wheel has often been the Achilles' heel on mice I have tested. I am not a fan of the free-spinning option found on some Logitech mice, and most mice I have tried have a scroll wheel that rattles, especially when scrolling forward.

The other thing that caused me to reject most mice that I tested is a surface that feels sticky or clammy -- either immediately or after some use. The culprit in many cases was the plastic used for cosmetic LED lighting. Otherwise, it was the material used for the main body of the mouse. What is your assessment of the surface of the G403 -- both the side grips and the top?

Finally, the other thing that I need in a mouse is a large size in all three dimensions. The G403 measures 124 x 68 x 43 mm (l x w x h). My current favorite, the SS Rival 300, measures 133 x 70 x 45 mm, which makes it one of the larger mice on the market, but it still feels a bit too small for my palm grip. So, I like what I have seen on the web about the G403, but I haven't yet seen comments on the scroll wheel or the surface feel, and it might be a bit too small for my taste.

Of course, all this is a matter of personal preference. There is a bewildering variety of computer mice on the market today. This degree of choice is great, but it can be a challenge to find an optimal match of attributes with preferences in the same product. Maybe the solution is to start building Frankenmice.
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Unread post12 Feb 2017, 15:26

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Hypersphere wrote:
zzuper wrote:I have the g403 now and ive gotta say, its pretty close to perfect. Sensor is rediculous, shape is Better than deathadder.. Its getting close now : ]

Thanks for the post. I looked up the G403 and I like its simplicity. How is the scroll wheel on the G403? The scroll wheel has often been the Achilles' heel on mice I have tested. I am not a fan of the free-spinning option found on some Logitech mice, and most mice I have tried have a scroll wheel that rattles, especially when scrolling forward.

The other thing that caused me to reject most mice that I tested is a surface that feels sticky or clammy -- either immediately or after some use. The culprit in many cases was the plastic used for cosmetic LED lighting. Otherwise, it was the material used for the main body of the mouse. What is your assessment of the surface of the G403 -- both the side grips and the top?

Finally, the other thing that I need in a mouse is a large size in all three dimensions. The G403 measures 124 x 68 x 43 mm (l x w x h). My current favorite, the SS Rival 300, measures 133 x 70 x 45 mm, which makes it one of the larger mice on the market, but it still feels a bit too small for my palm grip. So, I like what I have seen on the web about the G403, but I haven't yet seen comments on the scroll wheel or the surface feel, and it might be a bit too small for my taste.

Of course, all this is a matter of personal preference. There is a bewildering variety of computer mice on the market today. This degree of choice is great, but it can be a challenge to find an optimal match of attributes with preferences in the same product. Maybe the solution is to start building Frankenmice.

The g403 is what I settled on after testing out about 12 mice a few months ago, the biggest drawback it has for sure is the horrible quality control they did on the scroll wheels at release, then tried to take them all back in after denying it was a problem for a couple months. So literally every one I have gotten has been open box being sold as new from retail chains like Best Buy, to even Newegg. I have went through 7 and they all suffer for a slight wobble in the scroll wheel being able to shift in its housing, it was a lot worse before they "fixed" it. I finally went through Logitech directly and the one they sent me was still retaped to appear as new and still shifts slightly sometimes when I scroll up or down, and I can just lay my index finger on it and barely pull it to either side and it will make that horrible clack sound along with the sensation of it moving.

I have learned to live with it because I have a bad wrist and the sensor, weight, and shape all mattered more to me than the scroll wheel being perfect. I used to use a Death Adder 2013 for about 3 years until I changed to this. I used a regular mx500 logitech for 12 years before that until the left button stopped working very well and all that stuff that comes from a mouse being that old.

But it is 10 grams lighter than the death adder, or the same if you pop in the removable weight or get the wireless version of the g403 which is said to have a very sophisticated wireless connection and rocket jump ninja couldn't tell any difference between the wired and wireless performance in his review while playing quake. The g pro was very nice, and the scroll wheel on that was very tight. I just don't like the claw styling it forced on my hands which are on the larger side from most people I have come to realize even though I think they are relatively small. I tend to do a kind of palm/fingertip hybrid when I use a mouse and this allows me to do so with relative ease.

I had been looking to try the ducky secret m given that it is smaller and is more in the weight range I prefer over the 120-130 grams the original was. I wonder if you might like that one too since you seemed to have issues with grabbing it effectively and now that it is a little smaller it may have remedied that issue for you.

Sorry for ranting, kind of get carried away sometimes when I talk about things haha. Lemme know if I need to clarify anything.

Right now, I planned to wait another month or so for hopefully all of those "fixed" g403s to get off the shelves and I'll just buy them from Best Buy again until I get a good one. Logitech said they would send me another one after I complained that the issue still wasn't completely rectified, but they just started ignoring me so I don't know if I'll buy from them again after I get this eventually settled if that is how they want to be. It is still my preferred mouse for everything other than mmos though, and I did a lot of testing just like my recent keyboard binge when I got started reading on all the enthusiast forums haha.
dzugashvili

Unread post12 Feb 2017, 19:13

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@dzugashvili: Thanks for sharing the problems you have had with the scroll wheel issue in the Logitech G403 mouse.

Thanks also for mentioning Rocket Jump Ninja. I don't know why it took me so long to discover his excellent web site and reviews of computer mice and other gadgets. He could have saved me a lot of trouble with sorting through specs to find mice for palm grippers with large hands.

Regarding the Ducky Secret Mouse, I liked some of its features, and I admired the notion of making the shell out of PBT, but I didn't like the feel of the translucent plastic they used for the LEDs and it tended to slip when being picked up. The new smaller version wouldn't work for me because I prefer large mice.

I still like my Steelseries Rival 300, but based on recent reviews of large mice by Rocket Jump Ninja, and looking at the specs myself, if I were looking for a new mouse, here are the ones I would like to try:

Cougar Revenger

Logitech G403

Razer Deathadder Elite

Roccat Kone EMP

Zowie EC1-A

I would compare these with each other and with my current favorite, the SS Rival 300. I had looked at the Zowie previously, but it was at a time when there was confusion about the types of switches they were using, so I would like to revisit it. I anticipate that I might still have an issue with the gap between the top switches on the Cougar (I previously tested the 550M, and the Revenger is an update of this model). The DA Elite is not much of a change from the Chroma, but they claim to have improved the scroll wheel. The Roccat still has the cosmetic translucent strips that ruined the Kone XTD for me (they had a clammy feel), but more than one review has praised the scroll wheel, which is an item that matters to me.
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Unread post12 Feb 2017, 20:11

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I didn't really care for the da elite when I tried it. It felt weird to me for some reason and I hate the scroll wheel change to that 3 little dots crap they've been using the last few years. I like the regular ridged design from 2013 and prior personally. That alone made me dislike it, plus the left mouse on mine felt off and different from the right which I'm too anal to accept haha. They also seem to have made their packaging cheaper the last few years, cause the hex v2 and elite both weren't really secured except through tension which bothers me given how reckless packages are thrown in transit. Plus they used to make those real nice thick lovely boxes that made you want to keep them around; which I did and have actually stored my razer products in them now since changing my whole setup around. But as always, ymmv :). One of my favorite things about the g403 other than the sensor and weight is that the left and right buttons are standalone from the shell. Makes the switches feel better in my opinion without that tension from being attached to the whole shell.
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Unread post13 Feb 2017, 23:32

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I have an optical Mionix Naos and I don't know if they've changed the finish since I got mine, but mine is really grippy. The shape is unusual, but I actually wish they'd gone further with the finger supports on the side. I also have a Steel Series Rival on my ITX box which I kind of like. It isn't really big enough for my mitts, but then even the Naos could be bigger for me. I used a Deathadder 2013 for about 8 months before it sh*t itself, it was ok but i had to move to a sort of claw grip for that. The Roccat Kone felt fine before mine again sh*t itself, but I tried a freinds a while back, exactly the same model as mine, and it felt terrible.

Other than that I have a Steel Series Kinzu v2 which is alright as a portable mouse I only use with my laptop.

MY ideal mouse currently would be a slightly larger version of my Naos. The Naos for the record has been ging for 2 years.
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Unread post17 Feb 2017, 21:38

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@dzugashvili: I tend to agree about the Razer mice. I prefer my original DA Black to the newer DA versions. And another vote for the G403. It looks a tad small for my hand and grip, but I've seen it recommended so often, I'd like to give it a try.

@randomist: Interesting about the surface of your Mionix Naos 7000. This is one that I really wanted to try because of my preference for large mice. However, appearances and specs can be misleading. Something I picked up from Rocket Jump Nija's reviews is the importance of measuring the width of a mouse where you grip it vs measuring the widest point. The Naos 7000 is 85 mm at its widest point but only 62 mm at the front tip. The height also matters, and here again, it is important to look at where the highest point occurs along the length of the mouse. The Naos 7000 maximum height is 39 mm, whereas the Rival 300 is 45 mm tall, as is the Cougar Revenger.

On another, but related topic -- Does anyone here use a mouse bungee?
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Unread post17 Feb 2017, 23:42

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My hand also sits higher in general with my Rival, though, and in a direct comparison it does feel smaller than my Naos, the heel of my hand trails a lot more with the Rival because my hand is sort of tented over it. The widest point of the Naos is where the finger supports are, which i do grip on. I grip further forward as well as there, but as my outer fingers are resting on the finger supports, the narrowing is proportional. The Naos is the mouse out of all those that I've mentioned that feels largest in use for me.

It isn't just about measurements, no matter where you take them, its about how your hand reacts to the mouse.
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Unread post20 Feb 2017, 00:54

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randomist wrote:My hand also sits higher in general with my Rival, though, and in a direct comparison it does feel smaller than my Naos, the heel of my hand trails a lot more with the Rival because my hand is sort of tented over it. The widest point of the Naos is where the finger supports are, which i do grip on. I grip further forward as well as there, but as my outer fingers are resting on the finger supports, the narrowing is proportional. The Naos is the mouse out of all those that I've mentioned that feels largest in use for me.

It isn't just about measurements, no matter where you take them, its about how your hand reacts to the mouse.

+1
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Unread post21 Feb 2017, 14:49

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Hold the frickin' phone.

I was always curious about the Rollermouse (I am a touch-typist and a software dev who uses VIM, so my hands are glued to the keyboard 90% of the day), but it always something that seemed very awkward. One of my coworker when I worked at Viaplay used one exclusively and I would *hate* peer coding at her desk, since she used both Swedish layout and the Rollermouse.

So yesterday, I go to a local thrift store yesterday and find one for 60 SEK (6.34 € or $6.67 US). It was dirty as hell and the rollerbar didn't click 100% right, but worth a try. I cleaned it, fixed the rollerbar (the one plastic stop on the end came loose), and set the mofo up.

It took me about an hour or so to get used to it, tune it to the right acceleration and do a button mapping I like, but O GAWD YAS! I basically have the bar set to click, the left, middle, and right set to their respective buttons, disabled the scroll wheel click, and set the two little buttons to button 4 and 5. With BetterTouch tool on the Mac, I have middle mapped to Spaces and the two little buttons to Move Space Right and Move Space Left, so I can page between my desktops *super quickly*.

I am serious. If you know someone with it and you are a touch typist, borrow one from someone for an afternoon and try it out. Since we are all mostly keyboard geeks here, having our hands in a natural position and not having to reach for a mouse is nice thing. Buying one new can get a little pricy, so I'd recommend doing a test run first, but yeah, I may wind up tracking down a used one or order a new one for my home setup.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 09:27

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I like what I hear :) I'am also a touch typist, I also use Vim (also Emacs with 'evil-mode' for Vim compatibility) ... and today I'm set to receive a (used, but looks like it is in good condition) RollerMouse Free2 at roughly double the price you got it (~13 €). So it seems this can be a very good investment.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 09:32

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Laser wrote:I like what I hear :) I'am also a touch typist, I also use Vim (also Emacs with 'evil-mode' for Vim compatibility) ... and today I'm set to receive a (used, but looks like it is in good condition) RollerMouse Free2 at roughly double the price you got it (~13 €). So it seems this can be a very good investment.

Nice. I took to it like a fish to water after a little sensitivity and acceleration tuning. Also, I would recommend the driver (at least for the Mac). I don't specifically know if it was the driver or if it was just the tuning, but when I first plugged it in and didn't install the drivers, I would get a little tremble when I rested my thumb on the roller but kept it still (as if the sensitivity was too high, but the cursor still tracked slow compared to what I like). It looked like I had one too many cups of coffee... But when I installed the driver, I got it tuned. It may be that I was able to dampen the sensitivity and up the acceleration to find the sweet spot between smooth but responsive fine movements and wheeling about three screens like a bat out of hell, but yeah.

Re: Emacs: tried to learn that back in the late 90's when I got into Linux (feeling that VIM was far to esoteric) and kept getting thrown off by all the weird modifiers and sequences. Wound up using a variety of editors over the years, but forced myself to learn VIM a little over a year ago (because of the gesture-based commands and repetition... and seeing other devs absolutely fly around with it) and haven't looked back. Not quite used to the native merge tool within VIM and I wind up using Sublime Text's Sublimerge plugin to do more complex stuff or compare arbitrary commit histories, but other than that, live in VIM. I think most people are intimidated by largely text-mode editors, but seriously, I can type faster than mouse and menu around, and with modern plugins for code checking and completion of keywords, etc. etc. there are basically no features (that I need) that modern IDEs have that I can't do quicker and easier in VIM.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 09:45

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Driver-wise, it will be interesting, as I use Linux ... Also Vim rocks, but vimscript, not so much, so, after reading about LISP a little, and after playing with Emacs' Org-mode (best note-taking, literate programming, agenda etc. all-in-one tool), I decided to give it a try.

This guide shows how complicated Emacs indeed is, but also serves as a very good intro to Emacs + evil-mode (Vim-like behavior in Emacs). There is also an Emacs 'distribution' tailored for Vim users, called Spacemacs, but I like to make&understand my own config files. But it's true, I couldn't touch Emacs if it hadn't any way to emulate the Vim 'way'.

(OTOH, Emacs *is* a huge beast, so if you don't need any of the above, skip it ;) - this is not a pipe/thread about emacs)
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 10:29

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Laser wrote:Driver-wise, it will be interesting, as I use Linux ...

Depending on what distro you use, it may be easier or harder. All of those things are very tweakable under the hood (xorg.conf). So, just as warning, if stuttering and jump, decrease sensitivity slightly and tweak acceleration.

Will check it out, but yeah... We'll get off that subject for the sake of others :D
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 11:08

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Laser wrote:(OTOH, Emacs *is* a huge beast, so if you don't need any of the above, skip it ;) - this is not a pipe/thread about emacs)

Except now it is, because emacs consumes the functionality of everything ;-)

Have you considered spacemacs? Its vi mode is arguably a better implementation of vi itself.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 12:20

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__red__ wrote:
Laser wrote:(OTOH, Emacs *is* a huge beast, so if you don't need any of the above, skip it ;) - this is not a pipe/thread about emacs)

Except now it is, because emacs consumes the functionality of everything ;-)

Have you considered spacemacs? Its vi mode is arguably a better implementation of vi itself.

Mentioned Spacemacs just one paragraph above the one you quoted. Its vim emulation is still based on evil-mode, which I use directly.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 14:10

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Actually gave it a 15 min test drive. Not bad in terms of VIM commands and gestures. The big problem I had in the first test run was how helm handled file selection vs. ctrlp. I literally do 90% of my navigation via ctrlp (since it is code I wrote and tag jumping in JavaScript doesn't work so well with EcmaScript 6+ syntax yet). I can literally multi select multiple items on drive, open buffers, etc. even with different name matches in one trip and open them all up, all with muscle memory. Sure, I need to figure out how the tools work, and I will likely give it more of try, but what I worried with even Spacemacs is that I will wind up spending the better part of forever remapping the keyboard commands for every single plugin to be more "Vim-like"... Yeah, the editor being VIM-like = awesome. The equivalent plugins and utilities having crazy corded and sequential key commands = not so much.

It does seem like something worth spending the time to look into (when I have less a full plate right here), since Lisp is much better than VimScript. VimScript is loathsome, but all my favorite plugins will have to be retired, equivalents found, and either learning them with insane Emacs-like keyboard "long-cuts" or remapping to infinity and beyond.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 14:27

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Yep, don't do it, unless you have to :)

Just arrived! So far so good, seems very usable without any tweaks:

roller_free2.jpg


I use Arch Linux, with Stump as Window Manger (also made in LISP :) ), so mouse usage is already low from that point of view. Will have to see how tweakable are the xorg settings.
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 15:25

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Laser wrote:Mentioned Spacemacs just one paragraph above the one you quoted. Its vim emulation is still based on evil-mode, which I use directly.

In my defense, I have the attention to detail of an American President :evilgeek:
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 20:21

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Laser wrote:I use Arch Linux, with Stump as Window Manger (also made in LISP :) ), so mouse usage is already low from that point of view. Will have to see how tweakable are the xorg settings.

I've not heard of Stump, but have used i3 and xmonad for the mouse-free experience.

LISP makes me happy :-D
__red__

Unread post22 Feb 2017, 20:24

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__red__ wrote:I've not heard of Stump, but have used i3 and xmonad for the mouse-free experience.

Before that, I used Awesome WM, but I wasn't so keen on learning Lua ...

You may like StumpWM - it even has something like Emacs' which-key-mode to show possible keys to press after you type a prefix :)
Laser
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Unread post22 Feb 2017, 20:49

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Personally I don't think that the perfect mouse exists.
Over the past years I've tried different mice. In the years around 2010 - 2014 the best mouse for me was the Razer Abyssus. I tried a lot of ergonomic mice and a lot of different other gaming mice but I always ended up using the Abyssus. I couldn't get used to other mice. The Abyssus was so light, had so good clicks and was totally perfect for me!
The lack of side buttons didn't bother me because it was so light.
After buying two different Razer Abyssus mice in that time - because one broke - I ended up with it until I wanted to try something ergonomic. After trying out the new Logitech G502 in that time I really didn't like it because of the scroll wheel, the weight and ergonomics. I sold the G502 a month later and tried a lot of mice over that time. Zowie FK2, Zowie EC2, Razer DeathAdder, Steelseries Kana, Asus Rog Sica, Zowie Mico, some cheap gaming mice etc.. After buying the Logitech G303 I kept it for a couple of months before I ended up buying the G502 Proteus Spectrum and now I fell in love with it. It needed a couple of time to get used to the scroll wheel, especially in FPS games but now I like it. I still hate the weight, but that's not a big problem anymore since I the materials a lot now and I got used to the shape.
Overall I would say that the G502 and the Razer Abyssus were my favorite mice but it's all a thing of habit. If I used a mouse longer than a month I liked it and got used to it, even the Razer DeathAdder. It's always a point of games too. I couldn't play Starcraft II with the G502 as good as with the Razer Abyssus, but also I couldn't play CS:GO with the Razer Abyssus as good as with the G502 or the Zowie FK2.
Sometimes I miss the ambidextrous shape of the Zowie FK2 for example but after imagine myself playing a MMORPG with the Zowie and it's stiff Huano Clicks I wouldn't like it.
So I needed to make priorities and needed a hybrid mouse that suits the most games and stuff I play and do at the moment. If I'd only play MMO's I'd get a MMO mouse and if I'd only play FPS games I'd get a FPS mouse.
It's all up to personal preference and moods regarding the needs.
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Unread post24 Feb 2017, 18:32

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After reading this thread I went out and snagged a new mouse. Got an m705. In the end it had one killer-feature that I couldn't find on any of the other options that just overrode everything else...

A button to turn on and off the scrollwheel stepping.

Where has this invention been my entire life?
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Unread post24 Feb 2017, 20:18

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