deskthority

GMK GBs are difficult to reach MOQ as you're already aware, so I only wish to be informative about the differences by using photography and actual evidence to inform and garner as much support as possible.

And yes, I do strongly feel that the translucent and duller looking orange plastic leads to an objectively inferior product, as many keyboard enthusiasts like having LEDs in their keyboards, and such light bleed would not be desirable. Even without LEDs here, our fellow poster Khers is still able to tell the differences between the two colours photographed under natural lighting, enough to raise a question about it, to which I responded.

Once again, you are free to support whatever you'd like, and I'd be more than happy to have your support and will continue to respond the best I can to any further questions. It is merely absurd that my best efforts to provide an objective and informative response to a question regarding colour differences, supported by photographic evidence, be dismissed as merely marketing, as if it has no merits.

scottc wrote: ↑All of this marketing crap and talking shit about previous, similar GBs ("As you can see, especially when comparing both 'Q' keys, it is evident that the CO Orange colour is more translucent/bland/dull, making it a flawed and much inferior set.") makes me uneasy about this buy. I don't see why it's necessary to "market" what you've got for sale here.

Someone asked a question about the legends and he answered the question with empirical evidence. Obviously there will be marketing, it's a GB thread. Jesus you're dense

hwood34 wrote: ↑

scottc wrote: ↑All of this marketing crap and talking shit about previous, similar GBs ("As you can see, especially when comparing both 'Q' keys, it is evident that the CO Orange colour is more translucent/bland/dull, making it a flawed and much inferior set.") makes me uneasy about this buy. I don't see why it's necessary to "market" what you've got for sale here.

Someone asked a question about the legends and he answered the question with empirical evidence. Obviously there will be marketing, it's a GB thread. Jesus you're dense

Hah. Please, tell me more, hwood.

Actually, I don't think that marketing is necessary for a group buy at all. In a real group buy. What it is necessary for, however, is a commercial sale.

Karura, I apologise if you got the wrong idea from what I wrote. I don't mean to criticise you too harshly. I appreciate that you're passionate about creating an accurate homage to the Skidata set. It's just that statements such as:

SKIDATA+ will be produced to the highest standards, using an automated single-stage double-shot injection moulding process with the highest quality plastic.

mean little (well, little more than "these are GMK doubleshots"), and as such they read like pure marketing-speech to me. I'd expect to read something like that on the box of some commercial entity, not a humble community-run GB, hence my aforementioned uneasiness.

scottc wrote: ↑

hwood34 wrote: ↑

scottc wrote: ↑All of this marketing crap and talking shit about previous, similar GBs ("As you can see, especially when comparing both 'Q' keys, it is evident that the CO Orange colour is more translucent/bland/dull, making it a flawed and much inferior set.") makes me uneasy about this buy. I don't see why it's necessary to "market" what you've got for sale here.

Someone asked a question about the legends and he answered the question with empirical evidence. Obviously there will be marketing, it's a GB thread. Jesus you're dense

Hah. Please, tell me more, hwood.

My argument and my calling of you dense were two separate points. My argument wasn't based off your being dense.

On your bike hwood.

Karura wrote: ↑Wall of text

Thanks for the detailed response! Myself, I'm not very keen on LEDs and try to keep my keyboards LED-free. But the original just seem so much nicer, at least in the photos, than the charred. Let's just hope GMK can get their act together and produce something more akin to the original!

I might join in on the fun later on, I have to get this type of thing past my wife...

• scottc was called "dense" on the assumption that Karura more or less had to write in that manner in order to answer a question. Read scott’s post again and you’ll see that the "talking shit about previous, similar GBs" was only one point he had made.
  So of course it was a personal attack.
• There is another marketing aspect I would like to address: the adding of a raffle for a special "artisan caps", which is nothing more than the mere possibility of winning something extra, and this only for those who buy both the Base Set and Colour Pack, i.e. invest $213 on these: "[…] eligible for a chance to win one of […] free of charge".
  Note the expression "free of charge" at the end of the sentence, which is nothing else than the said "marketing bullshit" because it adds no information whatsoever to the "chance to win" but of course sounds tempting (what marketing-speak is all about). Also note that the photo shows several but obviously only one can be won. Will the winner have the choice among them? Will the other ones be for sale? If so, why do they show up in a (?) non-profit group buy? What to the fact that there is only a "very limited quantity" of them is supposed to be relevant to the group buy?
  By the way, looking at the photo, I see that at least some of those alleged "artisan caps" are by no means caps, but tops, i.e. only upper parts of relegendable caps.
  So obviously creating a positive atmosphere has priority over providing information, and this is the very essence of modern marketing.
• Up to now there have been 36 posts made by 17 different posters, including Karura himself and 3 having posted completely of-topic.
  3 expressed criticism about Karura’s marketing-speak:
  - gogusrl ("Pretty much everything you said sounds like marketing bullshit")
  - myself ("I just profoundly dislike the pathetic advertising blah")
  - scottc ("All of this marketing crap").
  In statistical terms, 3 out of 17 is near 18%. When excluding Karura himself and the 3 off-topic posters (ramnes, janvkn and Phil1), we even have 3/13*100= 23% of responders who criticize this very aspect of the way this set is promoted.
  I think it can be argued this is a statistically relevant value.

Here again, in clear this time, scott's link in response to being called "dense":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack
I see it the way he does - and yes, I'm pissed off

kbdfr wrote: ↑

• scottc was called "dense" on the assumption that Karura more or less had to write in that manner in order to answer a question. Read scott’s post again and you’ll see that the "talking shit about previous, similar GBs" was only one point he had made.
  So of course it was a personal attack.
• There is another marketing aspect I would like to address: the adding of a raffle for a special "artisan caps", which is nothing more than the mere possibility of winning something extra, and this only for those who buy both the Base Set and Colour Pack, i.e. invest $213 on these: "[…] eligible for a chance to win one of […] free of charge".
  Note the expression "free of charge" at the end of the sentence, which is nothing else than the said "marketing bullshit" because it adds no information whatsoever to the "chance to win" but of course sounds tempting (what marketing-speak is all about). Also note that the photo shows several but obviously only one can be won. Will the winner have the choice among them? Will the other ones be for sale? If so, why do they show up in a (?) non-profit group buy? What to the fact that there is only a "very limited quantity" of them is supposed to be relevant to the group buy?
  By the way, looking at the photo, I see that at least some of those alleged "artisan caps" are by no means caps, but tops, i.e. only upper parts of relegendable caps.
  So obviously creating a positive atmosphere has priority over providing information, and this is the very essence of modern marketing.
• Up to now there have been 36 posts made by 17 different posters, including Karura himself and 3 having posted completely of-topic.
  3 expressed criticism about Karura’s marketing-speak:
  - gogusrl ("Pretty much everything you said sounds like marketing bullshit")
  - myself ("I just profoundly dislike the pathetic advertising blah")
  - scottc ("All of this marketing crap").
  In statistical terms, 3 out of 17 is near 18%. When excluding Karura himself and the 3 off-topic posters (ramnes, janvkn and Phil1), we even have 3/13*100= 23% of responders who criticize this very aspect of the way this set is promoted.
  I think it can be argued this is a statistically relevant value.

Here again, in clear this time, scott's link in response to being called "dense":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack
I see it the way he does - and yes, I'm pissed off

You should add TL;DR : It was a personal attack , I'm pissed off

Although I really enjoyed reading your comment for such detailed :p

I don't like where this thread is going ... To be honest the marketing part makes me a little nervous, I've got stung way too often lately with nice advertised GB's, I'd rather buy the caps from a vendor with a XX% markup but I'm spared the waiting and in case the milk turns out to be sour... well I'm not the pussy to drink it.
For me GB's are almost dead, getting too old for this shit. At this point I have some money stuck in stuff that I don't know if I would ever get, money I could have put to good use. I should have taken very seriously that CAVEAT EMPTOR on GH , my bad I even stood up for some of the people ...

@kbdfr: those artisan caps are full caps, not only tops, they were made to match the SKIDATA spirit or something. To be honest after getting some of these artisans, after I tried so much to get some, I realised that I don't have any use for them except for the blanks. Nice to look at but totally unpractical, and the whole drama around them makes things even worst.

P.S: I'm not saying that this GB is prone to fail, I'm just saying that I have lost my trust in GB's n general, and this is my and only my opinion and has nothing to do with the OP.

scottc wrote: ↑
Actually, I don't think that marketing is necessary for a group buy at all.

Karura, I apologise if you got the wrong idea from what I wrote. I don't mean to criticise you too harshly. I appreciate that you're passionate about creating an accurate homage to the Skidata set. It's just that statements such as:

scottc,

No problem, I have duly noted your concerns, and appreciate your explanation - I now understand where you are coming from better, and it makes sense when I put myself in your point of view. It teaches me the importance of knowing your target audience, and how certain groups might have some negative responses to otherwise good information.

I feel that we have already gone off topic with all this "marketing", but allow me to offer you my perspective.

The facts are, I simply do not have time to specially tailor my "SKIDATA+ GB Description" to different audiences, I spend a lot of time writing a single general GB description post with as much details as possible, under the assumptions that a newcomer to the keyboard hobby, who otherwise might not know anything at all about GMK or keyboards at all, would be able to better understand that this is a premium product (yes, it is not cheap), and that it is well made.

I admit that perhaps this wasn't the best choice, given that members of DT are usually quite knowledgeable, resourceful, and have a lot more experience regarding GMK, Cherry keycaps, and the hobby in general, but I did not expect such a ridiculous resistance to it.

The truth is, I have other commitments and responsibilities in my daily life. It is only after these commitments that I am able to dedicate my remaining time and energy to organize this GB, and no one is paying me to do this. I make do with the time I have, and unfortunately it is sometimes not enough. I view it as dedicating my own time to bring something new to the community. I am not taking anything from any of you with this. I am not a business either, to repeat, ZealPC has offered to make my life easier, and help simplify the payment process, completely out of good will, for no profit or cuts at all. I am merely an individual, who is quite passionate about keyboards and keycaps.

I think it is quite enough that I have passed on the information, and perhaps there is some extra "marketing" for newcomers, but you guys are smart and capable, maybe you can just ignore it?

As to why is marketing needed in the first place? Have you forgotten that Classic Beige did not meet MOQ?
In today's keyboard hobby climate, just merely saying the name "GMK" is not enough to attract enough attention.
If I can manage to attract more newcomers to the hobby to support this GB, it only benefits the community.

Why is marketing a bad thing, if it could potentially attract more buyers, and help us actually reach MOQ?

Maybe artisans are not interesting to the DT community, but if offering free artisan keycaps (raffle) would lead to even just one new member being exposed to GMK keycaps for the first time ever, then why is it a bad thing??

Our hobby is very niche, and the community is small, and if we can attract newcomers, it will do nothing but strengthen our community. Once again, this is a good thing.

The point of marketing isn't to lie and bullshit to you. My only mistake is that I do not have time to cut the fluff, but you cannot neglect that I have included all the necessary information that you need, as opposed to leaving out information, leading to misinformation. I do my best to keep objective and provide photos/data when available.
You have more than enough information to make an informed decision regarding whether this keyset is something that might interest you.

Simply put, whether you like it or not, if the GB reaches MOQ, everyone has the opportunity to purchase a set, it is an additional option/offering for us (you are not forced to buy anything), and it is always a good thing to have more options. You have nothing to lose, and options to gain.

Yes, I'm not a DT member, but I know there are people here that do like a keyset like this, love the original Skidata keyboard, and would be happy to hear about this opportunity to get in on a newly produced set. I only wish to share my project and hope that those who DO want this, is able to know about it, and get something that they will enjoy.

It was a deliberate and conscious effort to share this GB on DT, because there is no other community out there that would share the passion, appreciate, and understand the SKIDATA+ keyset better than DT.

It saddens me that members would try to put a dark cloud over this project, and scare other members of the community from supporting something they might be interested in.

I hope members will use their own individual judgement, and decide whether they like it or not, there is no one forcing anyone to like anything, it is really your choice. My intentions of sharing the project here is done, and the rest is up to you.

tl;dr, do you want skidata keycaps? buy it! if not, don't buy it! It's really not that scary folks...

Karura wrote: ↑ It saddens me that members would try to put a dark cloud over this project, and scare other members of the community from supporting something they might be interested in.

For some reason you write your reply like it is purposively directed to put people off your GB. I don't read it as that, it was simply people asking questions about the cost of it, the use of words in the description, and the choice of keys in each pack.
I understand that you have taken time out of your busy life in order to do this GB, but the onus doesn't fall onto the community to be completely happy with everything you do just because you put a lot of effort in. For the number of people here that are not happy with a number of things, I am sure the people who do put in orders appreciate the work.

GH attitude meets DT!

Karura wrote: ↑[…] As to why is marketing needed in the first place? Have you forgotten that Classic Beige did not meet MOQ? […]

You don't really want to imply that it would have succeeded if only photekq had continuously thrown in things like "I would like to thank the community for your kindness, patience, and support. Through perseverance, we have finally made it this far, but the real challenge begins now" or "offered for the first time in the history of keyboard group buys!" or "absolute most complete and highest quality keyset ever made to date", do you?

As for me the reason not to participate was the absence of AltGr caps, otherwise I would certainly have participated even though my national layout was missing. I also wonder it hasn't reached the MOQ, but I don't just postulate reasons.
Remember, I already acknowledged your set does contain AltGr caps. A shame it is black/orange

Some questions not answered yet: are the artisan caps full caps? Will the raffle winner be able to choose his? What with the other ones?

Karura wrote: ↑

scottc wrote: ↑
Actually, I don't think that marketing is necessary for a group buy at all.

Karura, I apologise if you got the wrong idea from what I wrote. I don't mean to criticise you too harshly. I appreciate that you're passionate about creating an accurate homage to the Skidata set. It's just that statements such as:

scottc,

No problem, I have duly noted your concerns, and appreciate your explanation - I now understand where you are coming from better, and it makes sense when I put myself in your point of view. It teaches me the importance of knowing your target audience, and how certain groups might have some negative responses to otherwise good information.

I feel that we have already gone off topic with all this "marketing", but allow me to offer you my perspective.

The facts are, I simply do not have time to specially tailor my "SKIDATA+ GB Description" to different audiences, I spend a lot of time writing a single general GB description post with as much details as possible, under the assumptions that a newcomer to the keyboard hobby, who otherwise might not know anything at all about GMK or keyboards at all, would be able to better understand that this is a premium product (yes, it is not cheap), and that it is well made.

I admit that perhaps this wasn't the best choice, given that members of DT are usually quite knowledgeable, resourceful, and have a lot more experience regarding GMK, Cherry keycaps, and the hobby in general, but I did not expect such a ridiculous resistance to it.

The truth is, I have other commitments and responsibilities in my daily life. It is only after these commitments that I am able to dedicate my remaining time and energy to organize this GB, and no one is paying me to do this. I make do with the time I have, and unfortunately it is sometimes not enough. I view it as dedicating my own time to bring something new to the community. I am not taking anything from any of you with this. I am not a business either, to repeat, ZealPC has offered to make my life easier, and help simplify the payment process, completely out of good will, for no profit or cuts at all. I am merely an individual, who is quite passionate about keyboards and keycaps.

I think it is quite enough that I have passed on the information, and perhaps there is some extra "marketing" for newcomers, but you guys are smart and capable, maybe you can just ignore it?

As to why is marketing needed in the first place? Have you forgotten that Classic Beige did not meet MOQ?
In today's keyboard hobby climate, just merely saying the name "GMK" is not enough to attract enough attention.
If I can manage to attract more newcomers to the hobby to support this GB, it only benefits the community.

Why is marketing a bad thing, if it could potentially attract more buyers, and help us actually reach MOQ?

Maybe artisans are not interesting to the DT community, but if offering free artisan keycaps (raffle) would lead to even just one new member being exposed to GMK keycaps for the first time ever, then why is it a bad thing??

Our hobby is very niche, and the community is small, and if we can attract newcomers, it will do nothing but strengthen our community. Once again, this is a good thing.

The point of marketing isn't to lie and bullshit to you. My only mistake is that I do not have time to cut the fluff, but you cannot neglect that I have included all the necessary information that you need, as opposed to leaving out information, leading to misinformation. I do my best to keep objective and provide photos/data when available.
You have more than enough information to make an informed decision regarding whether this keyset is something that might interest you.

Simply put, whether you like it or not, if the GB reaches MOQ, everyone has the opportunity to purchase a set, it is an additional option/offering for us (you are not forced to buy anything), and it is always a good thing to have more options. You have nothing to lose, and options to gain.

Yes, I'm not a DT member, but I know there are people here that do like a keyset like this, love the original Skidata keyboard, and would be happy to hear about this opportunity to get in on a newly produced set. I only wish to share my project and hope that those who DO want this, is able to know about it, and get something that they will enjoy.

It was a deliberate and conscious effort to share this GB on DT, because there is no other community out there that would share the passion, appreciate, and understand the SKIDATA+ keyset better than DT.

It saddens me that members would try to put a dark cloud over this project, and scare other members of the community from supporting something they might be interested in.

I hope members will use their own individual judgement, and decide whether they like it or not, there is no one forcing anyone to like anything, it is really your choice. My intentions of sharing the project here is done, and the rest is up to you.

tl;dr, do you want skidata keycaps? buy it! if not, don't buy it! It's really not that scary folks...

yeesh.

i think you'll find the concept of a cross-community group-buy-styled sale to be a hard sell here.

i think, for DT, group buys still mean that a group is getting together to plan and buy something -- not just 'we need to hit MOQ, let's get on as many forums as possible to advertise this' style group buy. basically, if people want it here, they'll get together and get it. someone who is not a regular member of DT will have a harder time with that because the GB was not 'planned' as a 'group' buy, but as one persons' pet project.

that said these look very nice but halloween is only one day a year so i have to keep waiting for a less-festive keycap set before i dip into a GMK buy

sth is right on the point we like here to sit down and talk about these things and plan it and talk and plan and go off-topic without a mod screaming thread-crapping and talk again. It's just more fun this way, sure it takes longer, it drifts away from the initial plan manny times, but it's fun, and in the end it's something we all want and love.

In short:
Deskthority Group Buys: Emphasis On the "Group", Less On the "Buy"

So true!

There was a long-lasting IC thread on GH though. The problem here, if there is any, is more that if one doesn't follow ICs on GH you see only the result that's promoted here. Unsurprisingly, some decisions on this GB specifically target GH and Reddit audiences. That might make it harder to get orders from here, but otherwise there's nothing wrong with that.

I appreciate how Karura goes into detail to explain the decisions made, and I have no problem with the objective being to get more orders to help with MOQ.

DanielT wrote: ↑It's just more fun this way, sure it takes longer, it drifts away from the initial plan manny times, but it's fun, and in the end it's something we all want and love.

That's absolutely true, but that's not the way you would get a new GMK cap set (how many times did GMK get the ping award here?). It would take decades to reach MOQ, and if we would be near MOQ, the next discussion about another multi language support option would start, and everything would have to be developed and calculated again.

What could work here regarding a GMK set would be an enormous BEIGE group buy, with for example all kind of modifers, and stuff like that. So who wants to start it

Madhias wrote: ↑What could work here regarding a GMK set would be an enormous BEIGE group buy, with for example all kind of modifers, and stuff like that. So who wants to start it

When it comes to GMK smaller = more likely to succeed. If classic beige failed, we need to go smaller not bigger.

kbdfr wrote: ↑ Some questions not answered yet: are the artisan caps full caps? Will the raffle winner be able to choose his? What with the other ones?

Artisan caps are all triple-shot, complete caps with MX stems, they are not "relegendable tops".

BingeCaps has finished making his keycaps, KatzenKinder is still working on his, will be announced as soon as they're ready.

Artisans will be raffled out one by one until they are all gone (1 win per order max that includes Base Set), at the end of the GB ordering period.

I appreciate the explanation and I guess "brisk" welcome to the community.
I definitely understand the emphasis on "group" and making things together, as I've been paying attention to the R5 GB.

Perhaps when I have more spare time, I would be more than happy to participate in some future GB planning. Off topic, but perhaps someone can track down the moulds for the Nixdorf keyboard caps? Those are cool.

Orders have been steadily coming in, and it looks like SKIDATA+ will have a good chance at meeting MOQ.
I will make an announcement when order milestones have been reached.

Just a little update for those keeping an eye on this:

We've reached 1/4 MOQ for both the Base Set and Colour Pack in just under a week.

Will need a bit more support on the Relegendables, but unfortunately it seems like it might not make it.

Hoping for the best, and that we will reach the goal before the end of the month.

Good news, everyone!

It is my pleasure, with extreme happiness, to announce that we have officially reached MOQ for the SKIDATA+ Base Set, Colour Pack, and their respective spacebars.

We are still lacking a lot of orders for the Relegendables to happen. I have hope that we will make the numbers for the Relengedables Set with a little less than two weeks to go.

All orders of the SKIDATA+ Base Set, Colour Pack, or their respective spacebars are now guaranteed to go into production.

Lots of orders have been steadily flowing in ever since we reached MOQ. Just a reminder that there's less than 10 days left until November 30th, which is when orders close, and hopefully anyone that might want a set will be able to make it in time.

Artisans raffle will be conducted shortly after the orders have closed.

Relegendables still haven't met MOQ, but are looking strong.

Just a little update, every set, including Relegendables have met MOQ, and will be going into production.

With three days left, hopefully everyone who wants a set can make it in before the deadline.

Met up with Zeal yesterday, and had a photoshoot with the original Skidata keycaps.

One day left folks.

Last day to place an order; order forms close midnight PST.

Thanks for all the support! Very happy to see this project come to life.

Thanks for making this GB. Ordered yesterday.

Ordering is officially closed now, and will be working on sorting the order details and placing an order. ETA is 6 weeks after January, but no guarantees.

beltet wrote: ↑Thanks for making this GB. Ordered yesterday.

Glad to have you on board!