deskthority

Wodan wrote: ↑Do you really think?

That you live in the right place for MX? YES.

That there is a lot more out there in terms of switches? YES. Provided you actually try them.

Wodan wrote: ↑

Chyros wrote: ↑You still owe us an alternative to MX switches ...

What alternative is everyone missing that is superior to MX based switches?

Off the top of my head:

-Alps
-Matias
-BS
-SMKs
-FMR/FLS
-Honeywells
-NECs
-Space Invaders
-Aruz
-Acers
...

All in my opinion, of course. To each their own.

Yeah OK but I'd say you forgot:

IBM beam spring
IBM capacitive buckling spring
Topre
BTC
SMK Alps mount
Oki Gourd Spring
Omron
RAFI

Chyros wrote: ↑ -Alps
-Matias
-BS
-SMKs
-FMR/FLS
-Honeywells
-NECs
-Space Invaders
-Aruz
-Acers
...

With the exception of Matias/Alps, none of these switches make _ANY_ sense in this thread. I mean I appreciate your endless effort to remind us of the inferiority of the MX design but please think for a minute before suggesting Space Invaders as an alternative to the MX design in a NEW PRODUCT.

What's left of your list?
Matias? The simplified Alps clone with a 50mil rating?

Oh yeah and your list is missing this:

Sigmoid wrote: ↑[…] However, while I haven't actually used Matias switches […]

Wodan wrote: ↑[…] What alternative is everyone missing that is superior to MX based switches?

Matias. Matias is the alternative everyone is missing […]

How can you call them an alternative if you never used them?

I have been typing on MX blacks for decades now, and everything else I tried felt clearly inferior (clearly biased opinion, if you ask me).
But never having tried e.g. Topre, I wouldn't dare give an opinion on them.

Listing an alternative is not the same as offering an opinion about the alternative.

Death is an alternative to paying taxes, but the only option I have tried thus far is paying my taxes.

seebart wrote: ↑Good thing you live in the right place for that.

Seebart, you also live in germany, don't you?
But in Germany I can't find a freaking Alps board. Only IBM's and Cherrys most of the time.

For the Cherry is the worst arguments:
They seem to be relaible, without any oxidaton (Unlike Alps Complicated... I have 200+ dead switches by now... )
Nearly immune to DUST and seems to be completely immune to wear.. (looking at you Alps... )
And by design yes.. They are linear...
But the only thing I'm complaining about is scratchyness, and Pre-tactile/click travell. It feels like the tactile feedback is on the top, and feels Scratchy as hell compared to Futabas or buckling springs. but I've never used Blues befor though, and I'll get my first Mx Blue (possibly...) board on Monday.

BUT! Modding is easy, and Vintage Blacks in my G80-1800 (yes.. I transplated the sliders ) are the greatest linears I've ever used.. (they are the first ). But they aren't scratchy anymore, and feels solid. AND THEY WON'T BIND (Again... Ulps)

Don't get me wrong, I respect Alps switches. But I've only found shit ones. And they degrade... Is that quality dude?

PS: I hope I won't start a flamewar

Sigmoid wrote: ↑ Matias. Matias is the alternative everyone is missing. Also Topre.

Oh damn totally missed that. Unfortunately, Alps-based designs age terribly. The only MX-based design that "ages" that terribly in my perception are MX Blue switches - some of them simply loose their click due to a worn out contact leaf.

I have a few batches of desoldered Alps switches here and put several of them through a _FULL_ ultrasonic cleaning .. it is really impressive and scary how much better they feel again afterwards.

So yeah if you want a switch that feels INCREDIBLY while new and then starts to degrade as you use it ... an Alps design might be the best choice. It's a great example of an enthusiasts favourite, this switch. In the right condition, with the right care, in the right keyboard ... these switches feel im-prehe-ssive. But we have to get real - there are people out there that don't rotate their keyboards every 3-4 weeks and that don't have the means to clean their switches in an ultrasonic cleaner and that use them until the fall apart. It's like talking about a Lotus Elise as a great car. If you want to take it for a ride on a sunny week end afternoon, you will put a smile on your face that will last well into your monday. But you wouldn't recommend this as the best allround car to anyone just because you can have such a great time with it.

And I am not done with Matias yet! They are trying to tell us that after Alps made their switches with a rating of 10mil - 20mil for more than a decade, they found a way to 2.5x - 5x the rating of the switch?


And here is the revolution (Matias in silver - NO GOLD PLATING ANYWHERE)

Lynx_Carpathica wrote: ↑

seebart wrote: ↑Good thing you live in the right place for that.

Seebart, you also live in germany, don't you?
But in Germany I can't find a freaking Alps board. Only IBM's and Cherrys most of the time.

You can keep an eye open for Apple AEKII keyboards on ebay. They also come with some of the best Alps keycaps available.

But there is occasionally a Dell or Focus Alps keyboard on ebay.

I find them at the recycler occasionally, too ... like the Dells I threw into the Rabbit Hole kits.
I still have a whole box full of Alps keyboard if you are desperate for them

Wodan wrote: ↑

Lynx_Carpathica wrote: ↑

seebart wrote: ↑Good thing you live in the right place for that.

Seebart, you also live in germany, don't you?
But in Germany I can't find a freaking Alps board. Only IBM's and Cherrys most of the time.

You can keep an eye open for Apple AEKII keyboards on ebay. They also come with some of the best Alps keycaps available.

But there is occasionally a Dell or Focus Alps keyboard on ebay.

I find them at the recycler occasionally, too ... like the Dells I threw into the Rabbit Hole kits.
I still have a whole box full of Alps keyboard if you are desperate for them

Thanks, Dude, I may take it into consideration. But enough of keyboard buying for the month now (at least 100€s spent in just 2 months for keyboard... HOLLY F..S..)

EDIT: And yeah.. I think original Alps PBT w/Dyesub... My favorite combo .
#ibmfanhere

EDIT2: We can't forget the son of IBM: Unicomp. And Model M's are Wide-spread, relaible as hell, but might only need an exterrior cleaning and that's really all.

I think the answer here is that people have different preferences. I've heard people praised Green and Yellow Alps and said they were far better than MX blacks. Well when I personally type on both of them, they are just different, not necessary superior or inferior (I prefer Cherry linear's feedback). And then there's smoothness, good condition Alps are definitely smoother than scratchy new MX but bad condition Alps are gritty as f*ck and it's trickier to restore them than with Cherries. Don't forget about the modding capabilities of Cherry MX, put some thin lube on vintage blacks and they will be perfectly smooth - if not vastly smoother and more consistent than Alps, put some custom springs in and oil them to your liking..

Its almost impossible to mod tactile Cherries to have that smooth tactility from Topre and Alps. In clicky category, Cherry just pales in comparison . For me its MX for linears, Alps for tactile and BS for clicky, topre is just a thing of the past...

iamacicada wrote: ↑I think the answer is that people have different preference...

I decided not to trust anyone's opinions on switches and make my own decisions. One thing that really stuck with me when I had a conversation with another keeb addict in the DT chat was that, in the end, switches are only part of the build.

I prefer mx to alps since I want something nice to look at and type on, without the hassle of spending too much money. Cherry is solid and gaterons are smooth and cheaper. Zealios are smoother and I quite liked Mod switches. HHKB is great, and I hate neon lime alps. NIB blue alps feel great, and so does Model F.

It really is all down to preferences and taste. Just think of how varied our ways of typing are. At the end of the day I'm just glad there's a great variety of switches out there, and that's what we should celebrate instead of telling how inferior others are.

From my point of view, Chyro's typing style is weird and clunky. It's only natural that I can't agree on his taste, but I won't go as far as saying Alps being "crap" (Chyro's perception of Cherry M.X). It's not a word of any use to a discussion anyway. "MX linears made by Cherry are both poorly weighted and scratchy" is just untrue for vintage blacks, which should be used to compare with VINTAGE Alps in the first place. Don't compare modern Cherry with vintage Alps please, that's just not fair.

It would help to know your target market. Is it gamers? Typists? Collectors? Vintage fetishists? You won't be able to catch them all with a single net (i.e., switch type/brand) so you'll have to make some sacrifices.

For instance, I probably fall into the typist category. I'm not really a gamer (and even when I do play video games, they aren't the kind where keyboard performance matters), I'm not a collector, and I have no interest in old gear that I have to scrounge around the Internet for parts. I just want a pleasant typing experience.

If there is anything I am obsessed with it is keycaps, and in particular SA/DSA keycaps, so any switch I am going to buy into must be able to take my SA and DSA keycap sets. And lately I've become hooked on quiet switches, which means I stay far, far away from clicky switches.

All this adds up to a preference for the following:

1. Silenced Topre switches with MX stems. The gold standard for a smooth, quiet, tactile typing experience.

2. Cherry MX Silent Red switches. The only silenced linear switch with an MX stem.

Honorable mention goes to Matias Tactile switches since they are silenced in the same way the MX silent reds are and they feel pretty good to type on (not as nice as Topre, mind you). The only problem, of course, is the complete lack of spherical keycap sets to put on them.

In terms of the future, I look forward to trying a keyboard with XMIT's Hall Effect switches someday. I would love to try both linear and tactile variants (only linear exists at the moment), and hopefully a full-size board in a conventional case will become available. If that switch performs at least as well as MX silent red and Matias Tactile, then it could end up as #3 on my list.

Note that these are all contemporary switches in production today. I would strongly recommend staying away from old vintage switches, no matter how good they were back in the day, as the basis for a new product. To my mind, that really only leaves MX, Topre, Matias, and Hall Effect as viable options. But if you want to appeal to the largest possible customer base, aim for MX compatibility so that people can put their favorite keycaps on.

If this thread originally was about switches you can actually buy we really could have ended up with a more reasonable discussion

Are MX clones actually much better than the real thing these days? (and smoothness isn't the only thing you would want to look at here).
And what does Matias have to offer?

The fact that people rave about complicated Alps as long as they are clean and best case NIB doesn't really help here. With my vintage Cherrys I don't even have to think about the board condition.

And who knows what it takes to make Topre produce a board for you? Probably not an alternative.

Wodan wrote: ↑I can send you a mid 2000s G80 with MX Blacks if you're serious.

I am serious about wanting to use them, but I don't want more junk. (I mean, something I won't have any use for, but G80-3000 is also poorly made which is why I gave up using mine in the first place. How much would it have hurt Cherry to put a couple more stand-offs in the case so that the keys don't dip down inside the case when you hit one of the F keys?)

Wodan wrote: ↑But I have yet to see a modular buckling spring switch ... or a PCB-mountable Alps switch ...

By "Alps" you mean SKCL/SKCM style obviously. Perfectly possible — there are PCB mount clones from several manufacturers (including Xiang Min and Hua-Jie). For whatever reason Alps never found it useful and anyone wanting PCB mount just used something smaller such as SKFR/SKFS or SKFL. It just happens that the Alps clone switches tend to be poorly weighted, and don't know why they do that.

Wodan wrote: ↑With the exception of Matias/Alps, none of these switches make _ANY_ sense in this thread. I mean I appreciate your endless effort to remind us of the inferiority of the MX design but please think for a minute before suggesting Space Invaders as an alternative to the MX design in a NEW PRODUCT.

The point is that there is a lack of innovation. Too many new switch series are created simply as a way to skim off some of the market revenue by making a product identical to what everyone else is making. This has led to the confusing situation of everyone trying to figure out the comparative viabilities of Cherry, Gaote/Outemu, Outelu (not the same as Outemu), Greetech, Gateron, Kaihua, Kaihua–Razer, Greetech–Razer, Zorro and a load more I can't even remember (I also have Teton but I don't know if those are new or old, nor who Teton are supposed to be).

We don't need more MX clones, we need companies willing to look back at historical products and learn from them.

It does not stand to reason that clone manufacturers jumping onto a bandwagon implies that the product that they are copying is a good one. Market share is not directly relatable to product quality.

Many of your cited advantages of Cherry MX are not due to specific Cherry innovations, but simply the unwillingness of other manufacturers to extend their product range (or the lack of any need to do so at the time) or to remain in the market. Mechanical keyboards have made a resurgence, but not to the extent that we're likely to see the product quality now that we saw in the 1980s.

TL;DR: just because something is widely available does not mean that it's good or that we should like it. We may have to live with it, but that's all that can be asked of us.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑ We don't need more MX clones, we need companies willing to look back at historical products and learn from them.

The only switch I know of that is currently available (and also in active development/refinement) and which meets this criteria is XMIT's Hall Effect switch. It has so many advantages over other switch technologies (except maybe Topre for tactile feel) that it has the performance potential to knock all the others off the top of the hill, so to speak. And best of all, it is MX compatible for maximum keycap coverage.

kekstee wrote: ↑Are MX clones actually much better than the real thing these days? (and smoothness isn't the only thing you would want to look at here).
And what does Matias have to offer?

The only clones that improve on Cherry switches at a reasonable price point and availability level are Gaterons. Their smoothness is impressive, though their tactility and clickiness may not be as good as Cherry's offerings. I think the hassle free smoothness is worth it.

Some people here vocally dislike Gateron due to QC issues, but their evidence is pretty anecdotal. Most people seem to have a great experience with them (also anecdotal). HaaTa's switch measurements do show objectively higher smoothness.

Matias switches are less great, in my opinion. Their design clones simplified Alps, which felt "meh" to begin with. They aren't bad, but Gaterons beat them by having wider keycap compatibility.

ohaimark wrote: ↑ Matias switches are less great, in my opinion. Their design clones simplified Alps, which felt "meh" to begin with. They aren't bad, but Gaterons beat them by having wider keycap compatibility.

Moreover they aren't linear. They are sort of... Tactile.

Chyros wrote: ↑Cherry MX is arguably one of the worst MX-type switches out there right now. And MX-type switches are arguably one of the more mediocre switch types out there.

For MX compatibles, what is you preference? Only tried/own a myriad of Cherry MX and have one cheap compact Chinese board with Gateron blues (which are ok, if a little stiffer and louder... too bad the comma in the board stutters a bit... perhaps hacking the board with a diode to prevent noise and seeing if there is a serial programmer interface to hack together a better firmware). Planning on desoldiering the alphanumeric keys in a Tipro and switch the blacks for blues. If you can recommend a better MX compatible blue, would be interested in checking out.

seebart wrote: ↑Yeah OK but I'd say you forgot:

IBM beam spring
IBM capacitive buckling spring
Topre
BTC
SMK Alps mount
Oki Gourd Spring
Omron
RAFI

...Yup, you're right, they can all be added to the list too .

Wodan wrote: ↑With the exception of Matias/Alps, none of these switches make _ANY_ sense in this thread. I mean I appreciate your endless effort to remind us of the inferiority of the MX design but please think for a minute before suggesting Space Invaders as an alternative to the MX design in a NEW PRODUCT.

So you're basically saying Cherry is the superior product because it's the only product available :p .

Mind you, I've had several dozen Cherry MX boards by now (not counting the 60-70 non-MX Cherry boards I've had over time), I think I'm allowed to say I know the product pretty well :p . Sure, you're more than allowed to disagree with me of course - everyone their own, of course, but I'd argue at I'm making my judgment at least not in an uninformed manner .

Chyros wrote: ↑Mind you, I've had several dozen Cherry MX boards by now (not counting the 60-70 non-MX Cherry boards I've had over time), I think I'm allowed to say I know the product pretty well :p . Sure, you're more than allowed to disagree with me of course - everyone their own, of course, but I'd argue at I'm making my judgment at least not in an
uninformed manner .

Same here, in owning a heap of CherryMX based keyboards and not that impressed with them, when comparing them with Realforce and Model-M keyboards.

Sure, easy to customize the CherryMX keyboards but that alone doesn't make them great. I GREAT keyboard is something you can use either early in the morning or late at night, without ever feeling worn out or tired. A decent keyboard makes inputting data into any PC a delight instead of a chore.

I think it would be a mistake to only consider mechanical performance when judging the marketplace value of a switch. The most beautifully engineered switch in the world is worthless if it costs too much to manufacture, or simply isn't being made anymore. So affordability and availability are qualities that do indeed work into the equation.

How a given switch scores with a particular market segment will be governed by how each factor is weighted (in terms of importance) by that segment. I, for instance, value availability and MX stem compatibility about as much as I value mechanical performance. That's why I have a great tolerance for MX switches despite their mediocre performance.

Still, TMX switches rank the highest with me at the moment. They are MX compatible, deliver fantastic tactile performance, and best of all, they are currently in production (and integrated into a product I really like).

Chyros wrote: ↑So you're basically saying Cherry is the superior product because it's the only product available :p .

Mind you, I've had several dozen Cherry MX boards by now (not counting the 60-70 non-MX Cherry boards I've had over time), I think I'm allowed to say I know the product pretty well :p . Sure, you're more than allowed to disagree with me of course - everyone their own, of course, but I'd argue at I'm making my judgment at least not in an uninformed manner .

You wish ... I explicitly avoided to mention CHERRY or make this a Cherry debate. This is about the MX design and includes the dozens of clones available by now. I even mention that with the great variety of BRANDS, modding and various types of vintage switches available, you can mod your MX based switch to any preference.

The fact you have 60zillion Cherr MX boards doesn't add any weight to your opinion. The best MX Blue board you brought up as a contestant for the Matias board was a 15 years old G80. There's no shame about that since that's your thing - keyboards of the 80s and 90s. But trying to apply your "golden era" experience/knowledge to modern day keyboards is where you loose touch - I can't even find a handful of videos from you about modern, plate mounted, solid built MX based boards. That Gateron gaming board is not plate mounted

Let me know when you are done moving and got your new address and I will send you a modern MX care package (just for evaluation). Try some Filco MX blues and a Vintage Black Brass Plate Korean Custom and a Gateron Reds Magicforce68 aaaand a Kailh Red Spyder TKL aaaand Varmillo Cherry Red Fullsize with Dyesubs. Oooh and and vintage ErgoClears in a Low profile case with a leandreN HHKB plate.

Anything you've been typing on for a week before? Would love to save us both shipping costs.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑ TL;DR: just because something is widely available does not mean that it's good or that we should like it. We may have to live with it, but that's all that can be asked of us.

Oh yeah I never meant to credit Cherry for all the advantages of the MX design I listed. But they were the ones to unite them all in one single _modular_ design. The MX design has become such a standard these days and the market has shrunk to such a small niche, I don't see much room for a real revolution. We are actually seeing the opposite, Topre moving closer to MX standards by adapting the keycap mount - as do basically all other current innovations apart from buckling spring based projects.

As much as I appreciate new developments like XMITs and Wooting and Romer-G - those are KEYBOARDS to me and not SWITCHES.
Unless it comes in a compact, modular package, it's no competition for the MX design. Same reason why Topre isn't worth mentioning in this thread - it's jut not worth considering this for your own project.

Since this tiny enthusiast market consists of people who have all invested thousands of moneys into their MX compatible keycaps, any new design with no MX mount would have an extra hard stand. Any potential for innovation I see must happen inside the MX package - same pinout, full keycap compatibility. I'm just being realistic here!

I have an ISO layout modern MX black TKL ... but I'd want that back SOME DAY...

kbdfr wrote: ↑How can you call them an alternative if you never used them?

Alternative doesn't mean it's better. You know, if we were sitting at a cafe, and someone says "there just are no alternatives to Coca Cola at all", and I see a guy drinking a Pepsi across the road, saying "well look, that guy's drinking Pepsi so that's clearly an alternative" is a perfectly valid observation, regardless if I've ever drank Pepsi or no.

It can be bought, keycaps can be bought (though only in bulk), people have been using it in designs, so it's an "alternative".

Wodan wrote: ↑Oh damn totally missed that. Unfortunately, Alps-based designs age terribly. The only MX-based design that "ages" that terribly in my perception are MX Blue switches - some of them simply loose their click due to a worn out contact leaf.

Well, they age so terribly that in one massdrop, 10 out of 100 Cherry blues came silent on arrival. After disassembling them, and taking a pair of pliers to the contacts, they clicked again, but still... Anyway let's go into details, which tactile MX flavor do you consider the most superior?

Wodan wrote: ↑As much as I appreciate new developments like XMITs and Wooting and Romer-G - those are KEYBOARDS to me and not SWITCHES.
Unless it comes in a compact, modular package, it's no competition for the MX design.

Don't XMIT's hall effects come in a modular package?

Wodan wrote: ↑Same reason why Topre isn't worth mentioning in this thread - it's jut not worth considering this for your own project.

That really depends on the scope and ambition of the project.

Wodan wrote: ↑

Chyros wrote: ↑So you're basically saying Cherry is the superior product because it's the only product available :p .

Mind you, I've had several dozen Cherry MX boards by now (not counting the 60-70 non-MX Cherry boards I've had over time), I think I'm allowed to say I know the product pretty well :p . Sure, you're more than allowed to disagree with me of course - everyone their own, of course, but I'd argue at I'm making my judgment at least not in an uninformed manner .

You wish ... I explicitly avoided to mention CHERRY or make this a Cherry debate. This is about the MX design and includes the dozens of clones available by now. I even mention that with the great variety of BRANDS, modding and various types of vintage switches available, you can mod your MX based switch to any preference.

The fact you have 60zillion Cherr MX boards doesn't add any weight to your opinion. The best MX Blue board you brought up as a contestant for the Matias board was a 15 years old G80. There's no shame about that since that's your thing - keyboards of the 80s and 90s. But trying to apply your "golden era" experience/knowledge to modern day keyboards is where you loose touch - I can't even find a handful of videos from you about modern, plate mounted, solid built MX based boards. That Gateron gaming board is not plate mounted

Let me know when you are done moving and got your new address and I will send you a modern MX care package (just for evaluation). Try some Filco MX blues and a Vintage Black Brass Plate Korean Custom and a Gateron Reds Magicforce68 aaaand a Kailh Red Spyder TKL aaaand Varmillo Cherry Red Fullsize with Dyesubs. Oooh and and vintage ErgoClears in a Low profile case with a leandreN HHKB plate.

Anything you've been typing on for a week before? Would love to save us both shipping costs.

Sure, I'm always up for cool stuff to review . I do have some modern boards, but they're Tom's Hardware's, and I'm not allowed to review them on my channel for obvious legal reasons. I'll pass on my address when I'm done moving .

ohaimark wrote: ↑

kekstee wrote: ↑Are MX clones actually much better than the real thing these days? (and smoothness isn't the only thing you would want to look at here).
And what does Matias have to offer?

The only clones that improve on Cherry switches at a reasonable price point and availability level are Gaterons. Their smoothness is impressive, though their tactility and clickiness may not be as good as Cherry's offerings. I think the hassle free smoothness is worth it.

Some people here vocally dislike Gateron due to QC issues, but their evidence is pretty anecdotal. Most people seem to have a great experience with them (also anecdotal). HaaTa's switch measurements do show objectively higher smoothness.

Matias switches are less great, in my opinion. Their design clones simplified Alps, which felt "meh" to begin with. They aren't bad, but Gaterons beat them by having wider keycap compatibility.

Got a batch of Gateron Yellows this week, and they are smoother than Cherry Blacks. Got a Zealios and a Mod switch to compare Mx Clears, and both are smoother than cherry. However I feel that opaque plastic is more solid than the clear tops and bottoms of clones. Transparent top causes a loud upstroke. Just a fact.

I tried Matias Clickies at the meetup last week, can't form a informed opinion on them but I can say that I prefer their sound to MX clickies

Given a choice between my Filco Majestouch with MX Blue, and a Matias Tactile Pro 4, the Majestouch wins hands down for me in terms of sound. The Majestouch has a much deeper, fuller sound. It will be interesting to hear how Matias switches sound in a comparable keyboard.