deskthority

The Commodore Educator 64 is a rare bird that was a cross between a Commodore 64 and Commodore PET. It's purpose was for educational use so that it provided Commodore 64-like computing in a Commodore PET case (it was harder to walk away with a PET than a C64). It was also a computer with keyboard and monitor all built into one unit.

This computer has a slightly modified Commodore 64 motherboard and a slightly modified keyboard in that the cable is much longer (so the case could open fully). I don't know if there are any other differences. It's pretty much like a C64 but I took some pics while I had one open. This is one of my favourite computers in my collection.

TRS-80 competitor? Neat piece, I don't think I ever remember seeing one before is it functional and does it utilize a slot for cartridges? Looks like it would be a hassle to reach around to insert them.

rsbseb wrote: ↑TRS-80 competitor? Neat piece, I don't think I ever remember seeing one before is it functional and does it utilize a slot for cartridges? Looks like it would be a hassle to reach around to insert them.

I have two or three. One is not functional but I have restored one with a bad motherboard before. I have to find a C64 with the right rev motherboard to replace the motherboard in the Educator 64 with some changes. It utilizes the card slot and everything else just like the C64 but it's actually on the right side (not the back). The motherboard is mounted sideways to the right on these units. One other difference; the monitor is monochrome green just like a normal PET but the screen does shades of grey instead of colour. You may not have seen this before because they are hard to come by.

snuci wrote: ↑

rsbseb wrote: ↑TRS-80 competitor? Neat piece, I don't think I ever remember seeing one before is it functional and does it utilize a slot for cartridges? Looks like it would be a hassle to reach around to insert them.

I have two or three. One is not functional but I have restored one with a bad motherboard before. I have to find a C64 with the right rev motherboard to replace the motherboard in the Educator 64 with some changes. It utilizes the card slot and everything else just like the C64 but it's actually on the right side (not the back). The motherboard is mounted sideways to the right on these units. One other difference; the monitor is monochrome green just like a normal PET but the screen does shades of grey instead of colour. You may not have seen this before because they are hard to come by.

I was just about to ask about the screen, it's a shame it doesn't do colour, the C64 has some amazing looking games. I've got a Japanese 2001-32N B PET myself that I have yet to repair; I think the BASIC ROMs have gone bad, but I can't be sure.

I love the color scheme of the C64 keyboard very much, rich in vintage flavor, classic, but the switch is ...

What does the label on the back of the keyboard say?

Mine's from August 84.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑What does the label on the back of the keyboard say?

Mine's from August 84.

It's a number that is not stamped very well but I think it says. Mitsumi 10950621 It didn't look like a date code to me and there are no electronics on the keyboard.

It's definitely a date code, but I also thought it looked like "95". Having seen the bottom-heavy "8" on mine, I'm guessing the decade is "8", and the day of month looks to be "21".

The photo is too low resolution to make out the rest of it. Maybe it is 85.

Basically, these keyboards are getting weirder by the day. The VIC-20 started out with a gaffer taped PET derivative, then onto something with rubber domes glued to the PCB, and then onto the hybrid switch type identical to the C64. I'm trying to determine the date sequence for the various types and in particular how this relates to the introduction first of the fat switch for shift lock (seen above, replacing Futaba lock seen as late as 1983) and then the Mitsumi standard mechanical that came along by the time of the M0110A and C64C.

Compounding this is the likelihood that, despite their hopeless indecision, they likely retained the older shift lock switch type for later production runs of the same keyboard, even if newer keyboards had been changed. I don't however know for certain what the earliest C64 had: Futaba the same as the PET/1983 VIC-20, or fat Mitsumi the same as later C64 variants.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑It's definitely a date code, but I also thought it looked like "95". Having seen the bottom-heavy "8" on mine, I'm guessing the decade is "8", and the day of month looks to be "21".

All of the pics are high-res. I just resize them for posting here in the forums. The high-res ones go on the wiki. To be honest, I just looked at the high-res pic to see what the date code was. When I get a chance, I'll open up all three but they would all be manufactured in the same time frame. These Educator 64s apparently used refurbished Commodore 64 (C64) motherboards so the date codes on the ICs will be all over the place.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Basically, these keyboards are getting weirder by the day. The VIC-20 started out with a gaffer taped PET derivative, then onto something with rubber domes glued to the PCB, and then onto the hybrid switch type identical to the C64. I'm trying to determine the date sequence for the various types and in particular how this relates to the introduction first of the fat switch for shift lock (seen above, replacing Futaba lock seen as late as 1983) and then the Mitsumi standard mechanical that came along by the time of the M0110A and C64C.

I am sure you've seen this page before: http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki ... e=Keyboard I have each of the derivatives but am particularly keen on the PET style VIC-20 keyboard because it reminds me of the PET. In general terms, I always like the earliest model of anything I collect. As you probably know, the VIC-20s started with an actual PET keyboard modified to fit the VIC-20 enclosure. Since the VIC-20 had 4 function keys and utilized only 4 key switches, the rest of the key switch holes that were normally used for the PET numeric keypad were covered up with "gaffer's tape" as you put it. I have at least two examples of this type; maybe three. Sadly, I don't yet have a VIC-1001 but I'm looking for a reasonably priced one, if and when the opportunity presents itself. These are the earliest VIC-20s sold in Japan that also have the PET keyboard.

I also have a Eurostile keyboard variant which I have not checked for keyboard composition. I don't think there were a lot of these. What the VIC-20 normally has is the normal keyboard found on early C-64s. I can check them but this will take a little time.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Compounding this is the likelihood that, despite their hopeless indecision, they likely retained the older shift lock switch type for later production runs of the same keyboard, even if newer keyboards had been changed. I don't however know for certain what the earliest C64 had: Futaba the same as the PET/1983 VIC-20, or fat Mitsumi the same as later C64 variants.

Keyboards changed because of the almighty dollar. If it was slightly cheaper, that's what was used because the scale of production for the C64 was massive. I have several of the early "silver label" C64s that were the earliest C64s produced. These are said to have the normal later VIC-20 keyboards because the function keys are the colour of VIC-20 function keys. These early model C64s had a flaw and were recalled. When they were repaired, they had the labels changed to the normal C64 labels so the "Silver labels" are hard to find. I can check these keyboards too.

Is there anything else I should be looking for while I examine these?

The sticker isn't readable on the photo above even if you have a higher resolution version elsewhere — I don't have NSA access to your hard drive.

The sleepingelephant keyboard list is new to me, but probably as it has little of any use — the images look familiar but I would have ignored them as there are no details that aren't covered far better elsewhere. In particular nothing is mentioned about the three different mechanisms (rubber disc, rubber dome, rubber foot). I guess nobody wants to try to exchange keycaps not because they won't fit, but because they'd look weird. Nobody seems to know what the keycap mount is for the rubber dome version. The trouble is that by the time you find that the photos are missing, it's far too late.

"The VIC-20 keyboard is electronically and physically compatible with that used in the Commodore 16 and Commodore 64 model computers" — I thought I read last night that the matrix is different.

Commodore keyboards are a minefield. I'm not sure how far to let myself get suckered into this awful mess. I'm intending to just briefly mention the three VIC-20 keyboard types on a wiki page, but that's as far as I plan to take it.

In terms of the "hybrid" switches, it's what I'd call the "XY problem" if some git hadn't already taken that name. That is, in a linear arrangement such as a document, you come unstuck when dealing with a situation with two or more discrete axes. I can't group hybrid types by generation as that splits up the description on how they work, but if I describe them by how they work, that splits up the generations and appearance.

I'm already mired in the bog far more than I ever wanted to be.