deskthority

//gainsborough wrote: ↑ I'll have to check my plate on the gold label 102 or the PLUS, but I think that plate could support an ANSI enter over BAE, you'd just have to remove the stabilizer-insert. It has the same dimensions as an alps switch!

BAE has the exact mount as ANSI, that was used in the calculation of 144 different plates...That is the crazy part. There may be less than 144, but I would have to actually go through and figure each out, but too many to design still.

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑Just want to throw this out there...The number of combinations for the setup of this board is ridiculous.

There are:

• - With/Without Left function keys
  - BAE,ANSI, and ISO enters
  - 3 Different right side bottom rows (4 x 1U, 2 x 1.5U with 1U, and 2 x 1.5U with a gap)
  - Split and long right shift
  - Split numpad plus
  - T-nav, Ultra nav with bottom 2 x 1.5U, Ultra nav with bottom 3 x 1U

Totaling: 216 different layout combinations (288 if you replace the left, right and down arrow with 2 x 1.5U keys, if you really wanted to)

And because alps don't support multi-layout plates as nicely as cherry switches, there are a boat load of plate layouts...144 to be exact. So I am not sure what to do about designing the plates as there is no logical way to do this, and swillkb can't build to the weird cluster spacing these keyboards have.

EDIT: I even started to use keyboard-layout-editor to get the layouts started, then realized there are more than I originally thought, only managed to do 12 layouts before doing the above math, needless to say I gave up.

Some of these "fold out" in theory:

* if you lay out the version with left-side F-keys, you can easily delete that part before export.
* The 1.5-1-1.5 mods bottom row and conventional winkeyless bottom row an use the same plate (or users can delete the keys before exporting the plate).
* The "9 position" and "inverted T" editing block can use the same plate, or users can delete the 5 unwanted spaces.

Also, you can potentially just build a few examples in the editor showing each optional choice, and users can use them as reference to combine themselves. That way, we get the vital data (spacing) but you don't have to make every version.

For example:

* ANSI, 4x1u bottom row, split shift, 3x1u bottom of editing block, split plus, 12 keys over main block
* ISO, 1.5-1-1.5 bottomr row, unsplit shift, 2x1.5u bottom of editing block, unsplit plus, 13 keys over main block
* BAE, winkeyless bottom row, inverted-T navigation, removed F-keys.

Hak Foo, Yeah I think I will just provide a single DXF, and let people work with it from there.

Question, should I support a stepped caps lock? Just was laying out the plate and thought about doing that.

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑Hak Foo, Yeah I think I will just provide a single DXF, and let people work with it from there.

Question, should I support a stepped caps lock? Just was laying out the plate and thought about doing that.

I would assume most folks would be using their existing plate. The whole idea here is to use the Northgate case for it's construction and look/layout. Only those who want to change the layout would need a different plate. As we know the ANSI enter will work with the existing plate on all four generations, so no plate worries there. ISO enter would need a different plate. Deep breath.

The other consideration is key caps. Those reusing Northgate caps will probably be keeping the same layout, at least for the bottom row and nav keys. That eliminates the need for a lot of the combinations.

Stepped caps lock also relates to key caps. Or that one key cap at least. Gen1 Northgates came with the Control key to the left of "A", with Caps Lock down below the left shift. Gen2 and 3 came with two sets of Control and Caps Lock caps so you could swap those two keys by flipping a dip switch. I'm not sure if Gen4 came with the extra caps or not. Most folks who aren't Wordstar users (are there any still alive besides me?) will probably want the Caps Lock in the upper location, but Gen1 owners and Gen2 and 3 owners with only the flipped key caps won't have the correct caps for that layout. I don't know what's available in the aftermarket, but Dell, Acer, and a couple others have the stepped Caps Lock and offset switch to match. Most others are non-stepped. I've never seen a stepped Control cap for that spot, and I wouldn't expect very many people would be making a new plate just to use an existing key cap (Control or Caps Lock) for that location.

ISO Enter might be another story though, since the Enter key is fundamental to most users.

Going out to make some measurements ASAP.

Myoth wrote: ↑ this wouldn't be hard to implement and I think you would actually bring a lot of people into this project there IS no ISO on omnikeys, I'm searching for one of those sweet keyboard myself and I would actually love to find one, and get an additional pcb to make mine in ISO.

Hey I need some more help, after a bunch of searching I have discovered that iso enter has 4 possible mounting locations. 3 rotated ones and 1 non-rotated one. For the rotated ones there is 1U, 1.25U, and 1.5U switch locations as some caps have the stem offset from the center for some reason. Which ones do you actually want me to do, I currently have all 4 on the PCB now, but it is a cluster fuck....and if we don't need all of them, I would prefer we don't keep them on the pcb as it just makes it harder to figure out which holes are for which layout at first glance.

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑
EDIT: Can you also measure the spacing between the numpad and nav cluster for the Gen1? I measured it on the gen3 and it is an odd 1.09375 inch spacing and wanted to see if by chance it is different on the older ones.

I did the measurement between clusters a different way, edge of pad to edge of pad instead of between switch pins, and if I close one eye and hold my mouth just right I can see the 1-3/32 inch (1.09375) measurement being correct. I have a crappy digital calipers from Harbor Freight, but it only has two digits past the decimal, and there's more eyeball error using it than with a steel rule. Regardless I think it's safe to ignore my previous 1-1/8 inch measurement. Sorry again for the mistakes, or at least the imprecision, we'll get there yet!

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑

Myoth wrote: ↑ this wouldn't be hard to implement and I think you would actually bring a lot of people into this project there IS no ISO on omnikeys, I'm searching for one of those sweet keyboard myself and I would actually love to find one, and get an additional pcb to make mine in ISO.

Hey I need some more help, after a bunch of searching I have discovered that iso enter has 4 possible mounting locations. 3 rotated ones and 1 non-rotated one. For the rotated ones there is 1U, 1.25U, and 1.5U switch locations as some caps have the stem offset from the center for some reason. Which ones do you actually want me to do, I currently have all 4 on the PCB now, but it is a cluster fuck....and if we don't need all of them, I would prefer we don't keep them on the pcb as it just makes it harder to figure out which holes are for which layout at first glance.

ISO_Enter_Cluster.PNG

Wow, that would be all about the Enter key cap donor. I think the only other ISO Alps one I have besides the Focus would be an Ortek 84, and I doubt anyone's going to be using one of those as a cap donor. Dell would seem a likely candidate, but I don't have an ISO example to check.

Polecat wrote: ↑ Wow, that would be all about the Enter key cap donor. I think the only other ISO Alps one I have besides the Focus would be an Ortek 84, and I doubt anyone's going to be using one of those as a cap donor. Dell would seem a likely candidate, but I don't have an ISO example to check.

Yeah that is how I found out about it, looked up the alps64 and he had a revision just because someone asked about a Dell ISO cap working because it was offset for some reason. I don't like ISO, and will never own a board with it, so I can't speak about what people would want to use, if people have sets that require the offset locations, I can keep it but this GB is going to be small enough that it may not matter.

EDIT: I wanted to say, it is funny how ISO layout is a "standard" but has 4 different switch possibilities for enter, whereas every other layout has just 1 possible location. ISO is weird...

Polecat wrote: ↑I did the measurement between clusters a different way, edge of pad to edge of pad instead of between switch pins, and if I close one eye and hold my mouth just right I can see the 1-3/32 inch (1.09375) measurement being correct. I have a crappy digital calipers from Harbor Freight, but it only has two digits past the decimal, and there's more eyeball error using it than with a steel rule. Regardless I think it's safe to ignore my previous 1-1/8 inch measurement. Sorry again for the mistakes, or at least the imprecision, we'll get there yet!

The harbor freight calipers aren't too bad tbh, had a couple sets and they work great if you constantly re-zero them as they tend to wander after a bit. I have a Mitutoyo caliper, so accuracy is great, and all around nice to use.

Don't worry, I just want to make sure I have a board that was somehow "different". Better to have more people measure multiple times than just assume it was correct the first time. Once I get the answer about the ISO enter from Myoth, I can finish the plate layout, check layout for the last time, and launch the GB this week hopefully. We have enough interest to at least meet the minimum order quantity, so that is good news.

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑ Yeah that is how I found out about it, looked up the alps64 and he had a revision just because someone asked about a Dell ISO cap working because it was offset for some reason. I don't like ISO, and will never own a board with it, so I can't speak about what people would want to use, if people have sets that require the offset locations, I can keep it but this GB is going to be small enough that it may not matter.

EDIT: I wanted to say, it is funny how ISO layout is a "standard" but has 4 different switch possibilities for enter, whereas every other layout has just 1 possible location. ISO is weird...

I used the black Focus with ISO Enter (and US caps) for quite a while, until the legends wore off the most used keys. The only thing I didn't like about it was the small left shift key. (Macro key next to it, which I never used or even figured out...) Personally I have no problem with ANSI, ISO, or BAE-style Enter, but I can't deal with a 1U backspace, that's my "can't have". I converted the Avant (Gen4 Omnikey) to ANSI Enter mostly to see if it would work, and that's a very simple modification, took twenty minutes if that. Even less with a PC board having the pads already in place.

Polecat wrote: ↑ but I can't deal with a 1U backspace, that's my "can't have".

YES, the tiny 1U Backspace key is an absolute NO in any Keyboard layout.

Don't understand why they decided on that tiny atrocity, thinking that any future user would not need to comfortably erase their mistakes.....

Elrick wrote: ↑

Polecat wrote: ↑ but I can't deal with a 1U backspace, that's my "can't have".

YES, the tiny 1U Backspace key is an absolute NO in any Keyboard layout.

Don't understand why they decided on that tiny atrocity, thinking that any future user would not need to comfortably erase their mistakes.....

Like the standard "tiny" (1.25u) left Shift on ISO keyboards, which apparently is a capital problem for ANSI users,
it's just a matter of getting used to it.

If anyone can please give me feedback on if I should put a reset switch on the topside of the board alongside the one already on the Teensy++(which will be mounted on the bottom of the PCB). I don't know if it would be useful as the PCB is shorter than the originals, so the models with the doors won't have any PCB below it, and I won't be extending the board as that increases cost by quite a bit as I pay for the max dimensions, even if it is cut off.

Also I wanted to say that the plan is to have a black PCB with ENIG(gold), personally hate green PCBs so I will not be doing that.

Tomorrow I will wrap up the switch plate layout and do the final look over on the PCB to make sure everything is placed properly and to make sure I didn't forget anything. And if no one wants the switch, then I will go ahead and launch the GB on Thursday(3/8) at noon central time, and keep it open until 3/14 at midnight.

As I mentioned early on, the quantity is very important, if I only get 11 orders, I will either have to order 10 or 15 boards, which is hard on me as I don't want to kick people out of the GB, but I also can't afford to have extras and unless people are willing to buy the empty slots before I place the order, I will have to make a hard choice. I will have a live list here with the current number of orders, and the empty slots until the next price drop.

If anyone has any feedback before the GB is opened about a design change, please let me know, but also make sure to check back for my response so as to not delay the GB if I have an important question.

Thank you all for the interest!!!

Also need to mention that this GB will have plate files ready so you can make a custom omnikey Ultra or smaller 100% alps board using this PCB and the plate files.

All omnikey variants supported, even added ANSI and ISO support to further customizability(360+ possible layouts)

ISO love!
This sounds really really nice, esp with the plate option.

Awesome work with this so far, dude! I'm psyched for the GB!

I went ahead and posted the GB page on GH as it was easier to have it seperate from this IC to write it all up. It hasn't been approved yet, I have update the OP of this thread to include the information. Tomorrow marks the start of the GB, so good luck everyone!!!

GB is Live, You can begin placing orders. Hope we get a lot of interest on this because it was quite a bit of work, really want this to reach a lot of people.

In!

you included a split num pad + , you sir are a god among men

andrewjoy wrote: ↑you included a split num pad + , you sir are a god among men

Well seeing as the omnikey came with it, I couldn't not do it, and I love split num pad + because of the omnikey. Thank you!!

Silly question but this would work with the Gold Label 102 right?

idlethock wrote: ↑Silly question but this would work with the Gold Label 102 right?

Sorry, you are going to have to ship that to me...for testing purposes.

But yes it works with all variants of omnikey, for the 102 you just solder and go.

BlindAssassin111 wrote: ↑

idlethock wrote: ↑Silly question but this would work with the Gold Label 102 right?

Sorry, you are going to have to ship that to me...for testing purposes.

But yes it works with all variants of omnikey, for the 102 you just solder and go.

Was gonna respond with a follow up question, as I swear it said something else.
Though since I'm not super technically inclined, I suppose I still do have one: is this PCB mainly in case we need to replace anything/want to configure different layouts?

So I guess its no fuss with the 102. Also you can have a preview of the board

idlethock wrote: ↑ Was gonna respond with a follow up question, as I swear it said something else.
Though since I'm not super technically inclined, I suppose I still do have one: is this PCB mainly in case we need to replace anything/want to configure different layouts?

So I guess its no fuss with the 102. Also you can have a preview of the board

Yes, that was the goal. My omnikey pcb was messed up (corrosion under the silkscreen and pads broken off) and I thought that others may want one, and then it evolved into supporting other layouts as people asked if I could. There is no fuss at all with the 102, the board was designed initially for my Ultra T, and made to work with everything else from there.

We have hit 11 PCBs, so this will officially go though, hope to get more orders before the deadline so we can get lower prices and to meet the PCB quantities I can order.

Still sitting at 12 PCBs. If you are still thinking, just note you have until 3/14 at midnight to get your order in. If you know someone with an omnikey, or who likes large board layouts, hit them up and see if they would like to join the GB. We are so close to hitting the first price drop and I hope we can reach it before this ends!!

These Northgate Omnikeys are some of the best non-IBM boards ever made. I'd encourage anyone who has one or may get one later to jump on this. Buy a couple of extra ones because someone down the road will need one.

(Like me, who learned the hard way just how ridiculously fragile the solder pads are on the old PCBs when removing the switches.)

Better yet, buy a PCB and an Omnikey on Ebay, desolder, clean, and lube the switches, put the new PCB, Teensy, diodes, and switches back in, and resell the USB/programmable Omnikey with Alps Switches on Ebay. You should be able to make your money back and probably even a little extra.

Thank you for doing this, BlindAssassin111!

Yeah. The original PCB is the weak point of the originals.

It's also one of the rare alternatives to a "classic" programmable Alps board like the Focus 9000 or Ortek MCK-142.-- running 21st century firmware, you can probably do things the original "macro recording" could never do by itself.

just_add_coffee wrote: ↑These Northgate Omnikeys are some of the best non-IBM boards ever made. I'd encourage anyone who has one or may get one later to jump on this. Buy a couple of extra ones because someone down the road will need one.

(Like me, who learned the hard way just how ridiculously fragile the solder pads are on the old PCBs when removing the switches.)

Better yet, buy a PCB and an Omnikey on Ebay, desolder, clean, and lube the switches, put the new PCB, Teensy, diodes, and switches back in, and resell the USB/programmable Omnikey with Alps Switches on Ebay. You should be able to make your money back and probably even a little extra.

Thank you for doing this, BlindAssassin111!

Thank you for being a part of this!!

Depending on how things go there may be future rounds if after delivery people see threads about them, and want one. But if you are on the fence, don't use that as a reason to not buy now, we are almost at the first price drop and by you joining now, we can all save money.