deskthority

BACKGROUND

On July 26 of this year, I posted a brief review of the Leopold FC660M, the Cherry mx switch version of the Leopold mini keyboard.

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t6207.html

Now, after a long wait on backorder, I have finally received the Leopold FC660C, the Topre switch version of the Leopold mini keyboard, which enables me to do a side-by-side comparison.

This is my first experience with a keyboard equipped with Topre switches. My longest experience is with IBM Model M and IBM SSK keyboards with buckling springs, but recently I have used various keyboards, mostly with Cherry mx blues, but some with blacks, whites, and greens. In addition, I have had a brief tryout of Matias 4 tactile switches.

TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS

First, it is important to realize that the FC660C and FC660M are not merely the same keyboard with one switch type substituted for another. These are two different keyboards from the ground up. They bear a close superficial resemblance to each other because of their unique mini layout and similar color scheme with stock dark brown PBT keycaps and gold lettering. Moreover, build quality of the FC660C and FC660M appears to be similar. Each weighs about 700 grams, and with nearly identical case sizes, each has about the same density and "heft".

However, closer inspection reveals that the chocolate-brown FC660C case is slightly larger than the black FC660M case, and the mini-USB connector on the FC660C is located a bit farther to the left of the right side of the keyboard. The location of the DIP switches also differs between the two boards.

I have noticed what I think is a minor issue, but nevertheless a difference between the two keyboards. The case on the FC660C flexes slightly along its top edge and makes a faint popping sound when the keyboard is squeezed in the middle, but the FC660M does not do this. There have been previous posts about this potential quality issue by other authors. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43605.0

The two Leopolds also have different pedigrees. Although some FC660M boards are made by Leopold-China, mine says, "Made in Korea" on the bottom-side sticker. In contrast, the sticker on the FC660C says, "Designed by Leopold. Inspected in Japan. Made in China."

NIGHT AND DAY

The real difference becomes apparent as soon as you start typing. The FC660M has Cherry switches (blue in my case) and Cherry-type stabilizers; the typing feel differs from one key to another -- this is particularly noticeable on the stabilized keys (backspace, enter, shift, and spacebar) versus the others. The blue switches have a "Rice Crispies" light crunchy sound and faint crinkly friction on actuation, and bottoming out has a comparatively high-frequency harsh sound and abrupt feel.

In contrast, the FC660C has Topre switches (evenly weighted at 45 grams, although the spacebar feels somewhat heavier). The typing feel and sounds are agreeably even across the board, including the large keys. Actuation feedback comes with a pronounced "bump", and bottoming out is slightly cushioned with an agreeable sound, like that of a galloping horse wearing rubber horseshoes (thockity clop!; clopity thock!). The resistance is about right, although I think I might like something slightly heavier, perhaps 50-55 grams rather than 45 grams.

The typing experience between the FC660M and FC660C is like night and day. The FC660C with its Topre switches has the feel of an upscale full-size automobile, whereas the FC660M with its Cherry switches feels like a cheap compact car. Typing on the FC660C feels luxurious and instills confidence, whereas typing on the FC660M feels toy-like and evokes trepidation, as though something might break at any minute.

IT'S ALL RELATIVE

After my positive experience with buckling spring and Matias switches, I had not expected to like Topres, but I do. In fact, based on a few hours of typing on the FC660C, I would rank these Topre switches alongside my beloved IBM buckling springs. Overall, my switch rankings are as follows: IBM buckling springs ~ FC660C 45g Topres >> Matias ~ Cherry mx green > Cherry blue > Other Cherry mx switches (however, I have yet to try Cherry mx clear switches, which look promising). Naturally, these are my subjective impressions and YMMV.

It is unfortunate for my wallet that it took so long for my FC660C to arrive, because while I was waiting, I kept acquiring various Cherry-switch boards in a largely fruitless attempt to find the perfect keyboard, especially one with a smaller footprint than my IBM Model M or IBM SSK.

NOTHING IS PERFECT -- WHERE ARE THE CAPS?

However, the FC660C is not perfect, even with its excellent mini layout and fabulous Topre switches. To my mind, Leopold, or someone, needs to provide a reasonably priced source of alternative Topre keycaps for this board, including the spacebar. The stock caps have a good profile and the excellent feel of PBT, but they need to have quality dye-sublimated legends and attractive background colors, as seen in the white and beige RealForce or white and light gray HHKB Pro 2 boards. Such keycaps would improve the appearance and legibility of the keyboard. Customers want choices for keycaps, and no matter how good Topre switches are, the absence of keycap alternatives is a major deterrent to buying the FC660C.

STICKER SHOCK

As good as the Topre switches are, I think the price of the FC660C is too high. The current price for the FC660M with either Cherry mx blue or brown switches is 104 USD from EK, whereas their price for the FC660C with Topre switches is 189 USD. There is no question in my mind that the FC660C is the better board, but it does seem questionable to set the price at 85 USD more, especially with no options currently available for replacement keycaps.

PARTING SHOT

So, until reasonably priced alternative keycaps become available for the Leopold FC660C, I will relegate it to backup status and revert to my IBM SSK, which already has a beautiful two-tone set of dye-sublimated PBT keycaps along with its buckling spring switches, which are at least as good as the Topre switches in the Leopold.

Fantastic review, it covers just about everything I would have asked to be compared between the two models, and consequently I'm now relieved that I selected the FC660C over the MX model. I like the added reference of switch types other than just cherry vs topre.

I should point out this sentence in particular "In contrast, the FC660M has Topre switches" which should be self explanatory. Additionally, there have been various mentions of keycaps for the 660C in the works from Leopold.

Edit: Did you remove the spring from the spacebar before testing key weights?

The model names are cruelly similar, so mistaking them every once in a while is only natural. Leopold really wanted the Cherry version of this board to share some of the Topre's mystique, I think.

ohgodpleaseno wrote:Fantastic review, it covers just about everything I would have asked to be compared between the two models, and consequently I'm now relieved that I selected the FC660C over the MX model. I like the added reference of switch types other than just cherry vs topre.

I should point out this sentence in particular "In contrast, the FC660M has Topre switches" which should be self explanatory. Additionally, there have been various mentions of keycaps for the 660C in the works from Leopold.

Edit: Did you remove the spring from the spacebar before testing key weights?

Many thanks for pointing out my typo or "think-o"! I have corrected the sentence so that it now reads, "In contrast, the FC660C has Topre switches...."

No, I did not remove the spring from the spacebar. I am still finding my way around the strange new world of Topre switches.

Muirium wrote:The model names are cruelly similar, so mistaking them every once in a while is only natural. Leopold really wanted the Cherry version of this board to share some of the Topre's mystique, I think.

My dear Mu, you are too kind. In any event, I have corrected the offending terminological inexactitude. I agree that Leopold is probably hoping that the two boards will be associated with each other, as they certainly are through their common layout. However, the similarity stops there, as a world of difference separates the typing experiences on Cherry switches versus Topre switches.

Regarding model names, I suppose they might have been thinking "C" for "capacitive" and "M" for "mechanical", but it might have been more helpful to have used "C" for Cherry and "T" for "Topre".

Perhaps the coolest thing about the Topre-switch model is the subtle black on dark brown capacitance equation printed on the front of the case.

LOVE my 660C but I ordered a 660m in MX Clear / grey body to compare. :p

Cafeine wrote:LOVE my 660C but I ordered a 660m in MX Clear / grey body to compare. :p

After trying Topres, it would be very difficult for me to go back to any Cherry switch, except perhaps greens, which I have tried, and clears, which I know only by reputation. When you get your FC660M, please let us know your impression of Cherry mx clears and how they compare with other Cherry switches and with Topres.

I will, I hope Qtan sent that already !

So I got my babies.
Album here



Quite surprised by the MX Clear. Damn they will make my fingers strong. Or KILL them. Love it but for heavy typing, I do question that choice for the CODE KB.

The KeyCool 84 is light, I enjoy the MX Black for gaming and I'm surprised by how well it's packaged and stuffed with extras. Low price, good feeling, thx China... I got those 2 from Qtang.

I don't know if I'll have time to write a proper review in english (not this week anyway) but if you have questions, I'll be around of course. (I will be reviewing them for work, in french. Sorry !)

I like your mouse. If only Apple still made real keyboards. Let alone Topre switch ones!

People say MX clears don't feel so heavy once you learn how to use them right. I don't believe them. I like a heavy switch, and clear is brown's heavy brother.

Cafeine wrote:So I got my babies.
Album here



Quite surprised by the MX Clear. Damn they will make my fingers strong. Or KILL them. Love it but for heavy typing, I do question that choice for the CODE KB.

The KeyCool 84 is light, I enjoy the MX Black for gaming and I'm surprised by how well it's packaged and stuffed with extras. Low price, good feeling, thx China... I got those 2 from Qtang.

I don't know if I'll have time to write a proper review in english (not this week anyway) but if you have questions, I'll be around of course. (I will be reviewing them for work, in french. Sorry !)

Hi Cafeine! I would be very interested in your reviews. Could you by any chance post English translations of the reviews you will be doing in French? Sorry to be a barbarian who is largely ignorant of French! I am particularly interested in your impressions of the FC660C and how it compares with your other keyboards. I have found that I really like the Topre switches in my FC660C, but I am very frustrated by the lack of high-quality keycaps for this board. I am considering getting a RF87U, but I much prefer a smaller form factor.

For a quick answer, let's say that for me the RF660C is the best Topre around. I mean the best "ez layout" around (the HHKB is nice too but I'm saving for the ultra combo : Type-S + some black keycaps to help navigate the blanks ). Feeling wise, the close second would be the RF in 55g uniform. I own or have access to a lot of KB and the 660C is my daily driver for a reason. The problem is that YEP the lettering of the keycaps sux. If I could blank them, I'd do it. The PBT itself is fine.

The 660C is really a nice combo of ease of use, form factor and overall quality. For the price, I'm not suprised that THERE IS a tradeoff... I'm willing to wait to see what comes from the new Topre factory and I can't help to think that Leopold will sell new keycaps soon. They did it before, but they are limited by Topre working on the prod. equipments atm. Btw I'm pretty sure they did the same for the 660M but it's too new for me to know for sure. And I'm not typing as much on it (yet).

Cafeine wrote:For a quick answer, let's say that for me the RF660C is the best Topre around. I mean the best "ez layout" around (the HHKB is nice too but I'm saving for the ultra combo : Type-S + some black keycaps to help navigate the blanks ). Feeling wise, the close second would be the RF in 55g uniform. I own or have access to a lot of KB and the 660C is my daily driver for a reason. The problem is that YEP the lettering of the keycaps sux. If I could blank them, I'd do it. The PBT itself is fine.

The 660C is really a nice combo of ease of use, form factor and overall quality. For the price, I'm not suprised that THERE IS a tradeoff... I'm willing to wait to see what comes from the new Topre factory and I can't help to think that Leopold will sell new keycaps soon. They did it before, but they are limited by Topre working on the prod. equipments atm. Btw I'm pretty sure they did the same for the 660M but it's too new for me to know for sure. And I'm not typing as much on it (yet).

Thanks. I am torn between trying (which unfortunately for me means buying first!) a 55-gram RF 87U or waiting for dye-sub PBT keycaps to become available for the Leopold FC660C. I might also still keep the HHKB Pro 2 in the mix, because of its elegant design, but I think I know myself well enough to realize that I need a standard layout and dedicated arrow keys. At present, the 55-gram RF 87U would meet more of my criteria, but I know I would always regret not having a board with a smaller form factor.

So, I will become like one of those despondent patrons of Rick's American Cafe in Casablanca waiting for my exit visa. I will wait, and wait, and wait....

The TKL Realforce isn't any bigger than your SSK. You'll live!

try one, you can sell it quite easily if not perfect for you. Julle (http://deskthority.net/julle-u98/) on the forum have a TKL 55g RF to sell. I wanted it but can't afford (or justify) it at this time.

Cafeine wrote:try one, you can sell it quite easily if not perfect for you. Julle (http://deskthority.net/julle-u98/) on the forum have a TKL 55g RF to sell. I wanted it but can't afford (or justify) it at this time.

Thanks. I'm tempted, but I really shouldn't, at least not until a decent interval has passed since my last purchase.

Muirium wrote:The TKL Realforce isn't any bigger than your SSK. You'll live!

Yes, you are right. Even so, although the RF 87U is a bit more compact than the IBM SSK, it's the same general layout. My present thinking is that if anything is going to displace my SSK for long, it needs to be something spectacular in the 60-ish percent category. One of these days there might be a HHKB Pro 3, a revision of the Leopold FC660C, or a 60+% board from Realforce. A good stopgap would be a decent set of dye-sub PBT caps for the FC660C.

Something a little like this?

Muirium wrote:Something a little like this?

Well, perhaps a little like it. The JP version of the HHKB has been suggested often in DT and other keyboard forums, but it has been criticized as well for straying from the considerable research on the part of Prof. E. Wada that led to the classic HHKB Pro 2 layout.

Moreover, although the JP version has dedicated arrow keys, other features of the layout would make it very difficult for me to use. These include the small backspace and the small and non-standard placement of the right-shift key, which I use often, almost to the complete exclusion of the left-shift key. The layout has other quirks that would probably combine with the others to drive me crazy.

I think I could much sooner adapt to a Topre-based Poker II, despite its lack of dedicated arrow keys. If a 60+% board from RF is not forthcoming, I would probably settle for a Leopold FC660C with a decent set of white/gray dye-sub PBT keycaps.

Yeah, the HHKB Pro JP is a sprinkling of nice ideas on a classic design that doesn't seem to end up being much good. I just love the space bar. And I want those mods! But you're right about its flaws. And arrow keys aren't worth that compromise for me.

Still, hopefully PFU has something else in the works. HHKBs move so fast outside Japan they must be a good seller, and the lineup's been static for long enough.

I mapped backspace and shift to the keys on the right side of space and press them with the thumb, works great for me.

Good idea. Thumbs are so underused on traditional layouts, and even the classic HHKB.

Muirium wrote:Yeah, the HHKB Pro JP is a sprinkling of nice ideas on a classic design that doesn't seem to end up being much good. I just love the space bar. And I want those mods! But you're right about its flaws. And arrow keys aren't worth that compromise for me.

Still, hopefully PFU has something else in the works. HHKBs move so fast outside Japan they must be a good seller, and the lineup's been static for long enough.

Yes, I would like to see more designs with diminutive spacebars. I tend to use only the center of the spacebar on conventional layouts, so the spacebar could be quite small and centered for me. Perhaps it would not need a stabilizer and could keep quiet for a change.

It will indeed be interesting to see the HHKB Pro 3.