New Macbook Pro with Touch Bar

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

29 Oct 2016, 16:25

vivalarevolución wrote:
Nearly everyone that has used a Windows Phone seems to have a good user experience. Interesting.
My brother-in-law, a database manager in Cincinnati, loves his.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

29 Oct 2016, 17:47

I had to buy a win phone for a project I did for MS and honestly it's not horrible for the price.

Findecanor

29 Oct 2016, 21:01

caligo wrote: ... aren't there lots of non-contextual things like volume and backlight that people usually want to be able to access no matter what program they're currently running?
There is more on Ars Technica about the Touch Bar.
Up to 28% of the touch strip from the right is supposed to have permanent controls and they are supposed to be user-configurable.
The top/left corner is dedicated to a key: I interpret that that the Escape key is kept there but that it just changes legend depending on the default "Cancel" or "Close" action in the current dialogue.
It is still possible to configure the Mac to display F-keys all the time and they are also available when Fn is pressed (like now when the Mac is configured to display media keys by default).

User avatar
caligo

30 Oct 2016, 09:18

Findecanor wrote:
caligo wrote: ... aren't there lots of non-contextual things like volume and backlight that people usually want to be able to access no matter what program they're currently running?
There is more on Ars Technica about the Touch Bar.
Up to 28% of the touch strip from the right is supposed to have permanent controls and they are supposed to be user-configurable.
The top/left corner is dedicated to a key: I interpret that that the Escape key is kept there but that it just changes legend depending on the default "Cancel" or "Close" action in the current dialogue.
It is still possible to configure the Mac to display F-keys all the time and they are also available when Fn is pressed (like now when the Mac is configured to display media keys by default).
Well, that solves one problem at least. Although it also serves as an illustration of the problem with global controls competing with program specific ones for space on the touch bar. Maybe there's enough space for all of it – I guess one would need to use it for a while to get an idea of how it would work in practice.

User avatar
Menuhin

30 Oct 2016, 09:41

I recently bought a used Windows Phone (the past flagship 'Nokia' Lumia 930) in less than 100€, upgradable from 8.1 to 10.
I have an iOS device (an iPad) and I really like the Windows Phone design experience.

It's a pity they don't have as many apps, I always wonder why there aren't as many developers for WP as in Android or iOS. The 950 is great, but I hated MS for killing Nokia.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

30 Oct 2016, 20:21

Fun fact: System76, a seller of laptops with Ubuntu pre-installed, just experienced record website traffic after the Apple Macbook Pro release event.

https://twitter.com/system76/status/792530900504281088

User avatar
Hypersphere

30 Oct 2016, 20:42

For most of my computing needs, I use desktop workstations with mechanical keyboards. Until a few years ago, OS X was my primary OS, but because of software needs and requiring more power for the money in hardware, I switched to Windows as my primary OS with linux as secondary for specialized applications.

My current mobile device is an 11-inch Macbook Air, which is now running Windows. My primary criterion for a mobile computer is portability. Even most 13-inch laptops seem too large and heavy for maximum portability.

However, my MBA is starting to show its age, and I am beginning to look for possible replacements. In addition, I am looking for a mobile phone.

For one who uses Windows and linux, previously used Mac and a MBA, but who is not enamored with the new Macbooks, what are some good alternatives? Surface 4 Pro with an auxiliary keyboard perhaps? Lenovo X1 Carbon (with some way to remove its backdoors)? Late 2016 -- early 2017 Dell XPS 13? Others?

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

30 Oct 2016, 22:23

My first question is what is the intended purpose for your mobile device? Because if you are only doing basic tasks, I recommend a Chromebook. Some of the Chromebooks are taking a more quality approach, such as the offerings from Google, HP, Lenovo, and Dell. If you plan to do actual work, then that would affect my recommendation.

User avatar
chuckdee

31 Oct 2016, 04:43

Hypersphere wrote: For one who uses Windows and linux, previously used Mac and a MBA, but who is not enamored with the new Macbooks, what are some good alternatives? Surface 4 Pro with an auxiliary keyboard perhaps? Lenovo X1 Carbon (with some way to remove its backdoors)? Late 2016 -- early 2017 Dell XPS 13? Others?
Funny, I actually fall (sort of) into that category. When I first moved from my MBP, I went to the XPS 13. I find it very good. I've started divesting myself of the Mac Ecosystem, so also replaced my iPad Air with a Surface Pro 4... and I use that more than my XPS 13 now.

andrewjoy

31 Oct 2016, 11:38

jacobolus wrote:
USB Type C everything can’t come soon enough.

I totally agree in the consumer market.

But in a corporate and professional environment we still need other stuff.

We need ethernet for reliability
We need legacy USB ports for kit like audio interfaces etc.
We need normal USB ports so anyone can rock up with that 1gb USB stick they have had for 10 years and have it work.
We need real video out ( HDMI or DVI, ideally SDI but thats never going to happen) to go to projectors cameras etc.
We need DB9 RS232 for control of external devices.

Its called a macbook PRO for a reason , its made for professionals not prosumer or consumer, they are fine with an air with 3 USB C thats fine.

Don't get me wrong i am all for USB C i think it needs to replace micro and mini now as both of them connectors are SHIT.

But for other things full sized B is still the standard

axtran

31 Oct 2016, 12:38

I'm set to receive my ThinkPad T460p this week. It is the only 14" portable computer that I could find to fit the bill: i7-6820HQ and a 2560x1440 panel. There's been changes with Lenovo keyboards as well, and I am hoping it is still a nice experience.

I do software development so Linux use is just fine--I've been an Apple fanboy mostly because in my eyes it was large-company supported UNIX. With every macOS patch and hardware redesign I've been let down more and more, though.

My Mac Pro still serves me well, however I do see a day where that will even become even more aged (Late 2013 was the last refresh). Part of me knows that there hasn't been that many developments since Ivy Bridge-E that will even be that significant, however I'll admit that I'm hesitant to spend money on a much needed 12-core upgrade. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Laser
emacs -nw

31 Oct 2016, 13:15

People with loads of money will soon cook up a reason to buy this; I'd even go there to say, an expensive product *must* have something that is stupid, proprietary etc. in order to "make a difference" and ... justify the price, something "unique" for the buyer to cling to. All this, after the "we are different through this" discourse is sufficiently advanced so that it can cover the fact that it was better, simpler and cheaper without it.

jacobolus

31 Oct 2016, 22:19

andrewjoy wrote: But in a corporate and professional environment we still need other stuff.

We need ethernet for reliability
We need legacy USB ports for kit like audio interfaces etc.
We need normal USB ports so anyone can rock up with that 1gb USB stick they have had for 10 years and have it work.
We need real video out ( HDMI or DVI, ideally SDI but thats never going to happen) to go to projectors cameras etc.
We need DB9 RS232 for control of external devices.
This is all nonsense. You can get a little Thunderbolt 3 dock which includes all of this legacy bullshit and then some – heck, stick a floppy drive and a SCSI port on there – and plugs into your laptop via a single Type C jack.

Or if you don’t want a full dock with tons of jacks, here’s a single-purpose Thunderbolt 3 to Ethernet adapter: http://ezq.com/usb-to-ethernet-adapter-details.html (Found in 20 seconds in a google search; or do your own search and buy one of the dozen other similar adapters. I’m sure you can find a similar adapter for USB Type A, HDMI, DVI, serial, or whatever other silly thing you need). Also note that Apple hasn’t included Ethernet or DVI on laptops for years. I’m frankly not sure why they ever had HDMI on there, it’s a stupid port to waste valuable real estate on.

If what you mean by “corporate and professional” is basically “we’re too lazy to ever upgrade anything and adapters make us cry”, then you might as well just stick with an old Windows 98 or whatever box. I’m sure it’ll have your beloved serial port on there.
But for other things full sized B is still the standard
Nobody serious is going to ever put USB Type B jacks on their devices again. They were a reasonable choice for that combined toaster/fax/scanner/inkjet printer circa 2000, but are now an anachronism. But anyway, who cares? You can buy as many USB Type C to Type B cables as you want, for a few bucks each.

* * *

Seeing as this is a keyboard forum, I’ll add: I hope keyboard vendors hop on the USB Type C bandwagon ASAP.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

01 Nov 2016, 01:45

Qualify statements much?

User avatar
chuckdee

01 Nov 2016, 03:32

jacobolus wrote: Nobody serious is going to ever put USB Type B jacks on their devices again. They were a reasonable choice for that combined toaster/fax/scanner/inkjet printer circa 2000, but are now an anachronism. But anyway, who cares? You can buy as many USB Type C to Type B cables as you want, for a few bucks each.
Hmmm... my Surface Pro 4 has plain old USB 3.0 on it.

Why can't we just look at them as tools and use what works for us? If you want to buy your handy dandy Mac, then have at it. They're good machines. Just not for me, and not for a lot of others. It's not a religion... it's a piece of hardware.

jacobolus

01 Nov 2016, 04:58

chuckdee wrote: Hmmm... my Surface Pro 4 has plain old USB 3.0 on it.
Andrewjoy is talking about the device-side USB Type B connector. The ones shaped like a slice of bread, that you can find on printers and scanners and slow external hard drives from the mid 2000s. Every device I can think of has moved to Mini and Micro Type B jacks, and will within the next few years move to Type C at the device end.

You’re talking about a Type A connector, the one one the other end of the cable. Windows PC vendors are going to still be using Type A connectors for a decade at least, especially on desktop machines, in the same way they took years to phase out serial and parallel ports, PS/2, telephone modems, VGA, etc. Phones and tablets and ultraportable notebooks will go all USB C pretty soon, or have already.

citrojohn

01 Nov 2016, 15:38

The trouble with adaptors is, it's hard to be sure they do everything the original port did. Ask a Tipro or Access-IS owner about programming them through a PS/2-USB adaptor. At least with USB-C there's a decent chance of backward compatibility.
jacobolus wrote: [...] in the same way they took years to phase out serial and parallel ports, PS/2, telephone modems, VGA, etc.
I'd pay extra for a relatively modern computer that had all those (except telephone modem). And a USB-C port - mustn't be a complete Luddite! ;)

User avatar
chuckdee

01 Nov 2016, 19:47

jacobolus wrote:
chuckdee wrote: Hmmm... my Surface Pro 4 has plain old USB 3.0 on it.
Andrewjoy is talking about the device-side USB Type B connector. The ones shaped like a slice of bread, that you can find on printers and scanners and slow external hard drives from the mid 2000s. Every device I can think of has moved to Mini and Micro Type B jacks, and will within the next few years move to Type C at the device end.

You’re talking about a Type A connector, the one one the other end of the cable. Windows PC vendors are going to still be using Type A connectors for a decade at least, especially on desktop machines, in the same way they took years to phase out serial and parallel ports, PS/2, telephone modems, VGA, etc. Phones and tablets and ultraportable notebooks will go all USB C pretty soon, or have already.
If he's talking about device side, why would what Apple does have anything to do with it? Maybe I'm arguing a different point- but I mean the fact that it does not have USB ports on the actual device is a needless inconvenience, and I think that's the same thing that everyone else is arguing.

face

01 Nov 2016, 21:09

What sucks about the adapters is:

1) For goods sake, I don't care how this this laptop is when I have to constantly carry around this plane-sized thunderbolt 3 adapters or a power brick!

2) They are selling you this Thunderbolt 3 laptop stuff for an extra already. But then you have to pay at least 100€ (Apple) for Adapters. Or even more, 200€ and up for Thunderbolt docking stations. That's just too damn expensive.

One (or two) Thunderbolt 3 port is ok and perfectly useful. But in the realy world, there is a lot more USB B stuff than C and also SD-cards... just keep that stuff until every divice uses USB C.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

01 Nov 2016, 23:42

Aren't you a complainer. There's an adapter for everything, all the old stuff for old people. You can connect anything you want.

You know though what would be nice in the next gen? If they, like, look what adapters are used most in everyday, contemporary life, and then, like, integrate those in the laptop, as an extra convenience, like internal adapters so you can just plugin popular devices without carrying around extra stuff. That would be real pro.

Oh, wait.

User avatar
chuckdee

02 Nov 2016, 00:12

webwit wrote: Aren't you a complainer. There's an adapter for everything, all the old stuff for old people. You can connect anything you want.

You know though what would be nice in the next gen? If they, like, look what adapters are used most in everyday, contemporary life, and then, like, integrate those in the laptop, as an extra convenience, like internal adapters so you can just plugin popular devices without carrying around extra stuff. That would be real pro.

Oh, wait.
I like the cut of your jib young man.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

02 Nov 2016, 00:50

Not sure how many times I have to say this. Apple is now in the adapter/connector/cable business. Their hardware devices simply are mediums to force you to buy more adapters/connectors/cables. End of story.

User avatar
ideus

02 Nov 2016, 17:20

Apple did it one more time, a nice feature that worth nothing for productivity; but, that will rise company's sales sky high, did it for cheap and sell it for hundreds. As a matter of principle, I avoid to join the consumerism associated with this kind of superfluous stuff.

jacobolus

03 Nov 2016, 02:19

chuckdee wrote: If he's talking about device side, why would what Apple does have anything to do with it? Maybe I'm arguing a different point
Yes, you’re arguing a different point, to which the bit of my comment you quoted before is irrelevant.

jacobolus

03 Nov 2016, 02:25

face wrote: 1) For goods sake, I don't care how this this laptop is when I have to constantly carry around this plane-sized thunderbolt 3 adapters or a power brick!
Probably not the laptop for you then.

I’d be pretty happy to carry around a laptop that gets 8+ hours of battery life (“up to 10 hours”) and leave the power brick at home.

Likewise, if you need to plug into a display, printer, ethernet adapter, stereo system, etc., you’re likely to be at home, where you can leave everything sitting on your desk. The stuff needed on the road (say, at a coffeeshop) is going to be no more complex than on any other laptop.
2) They are selling you this Thunderbolt 3 laptop stuff for an extra already. But then you have to pay at least 100€ (Apple) for Adapters.
The vast majority of customers will need nothing more than a couple of $5 USB Type A to USB Type C adapters. Even folks with special needs are going to get by fine with one or two extra dongles, which can be purchased from a variety of vendors if you don’t like Apple’s version.

User avatar
chuckdee

03 Nov 2016, 03:34

jacobolus wrote:
chuckdee wrote: If he's talking about device side, why would what Apple does have anything to do with it? Maybe I'm arguing a different point
Yes, you’re arguing a different point, to which the bit of my comment you quoted before is irrelevant.
I think that's what everyone is arguing... so perhaps, it's you that's arguing a different point?

They have 4 USB Type-C connectors, and nothing backwards compatible. So you have to carry around/find adapters. That's been the argument from the beginning... the connectors on the device. Nothing else makes sense.

face

03 Nov 2016, 08:18

jacobolus wrote: Likewise, if you need to plug into a display, printer, ethernet adapter, stereo system, etc., you’re likely to be at home, where you can leave everything sitting on your desk. The stuff needed on the road (say, at a coffeeshop) is going to be no more complex than on any other laptop.
2) They are selling you this Thunderbolt 3 laptop stuff for an extra already. But then you have to pay at least 100€ (Apple) for Adapters.
The vast majority of customers will need nothing more than a couple of $5 USB Type A to USB Type C adapters. Even folks with special needs are going to get by fine with one or two extra dongles, which can be purchased from a variety of vendors if you don’t like Apple’s version.
First: no, I actually need my laptop when I am on the road. Alright, there are times where I am sitting at a coffeeshop finishing a paper because it's nice and then you would be right, but I am also doing serious research with it at my university. And nothing there has USB Type C, that's what I meant above. I need multiple standard USB ports, I need the SD-card reader to read out telemetrics of our stuff which is written on SD cards and I need HDMI to do presentations (which already is in the need of one adapter, since most stuff doesn't even have HDMI!).

Second: yes, that may be true for the cast majority of customers. But isn't that was everbody above has been saying? Apple is concentrating on consumers, not on actual pros who work with this stuff. And those are the people the Macbook Pro was meant for and used by for a very long time.

Now, for ME it's not worth paying 2000€ to be able to sit in a cafe with it. The Macbook Pro has also been an option for people (like me, at a time), who need a capable computer and also a portable one, but cannot afford both a desktop and a laptop. Now, the new Macbook is just too expensive for this scenario too.

This isn't true for the old macbooks of course. Apple has had a pretty need lineup there, in my opinion. I have never heard a MBP user complain about it's size or weight. The MBP should be the power horses, the MBAs for people wo travel a lot and value weight and size. Now they condensated this into one product and that's awkward, because ok for most of the people, but often not ok for people with special desires.

Also, it isn't like this couldn't have been done better. Take a look at the XPS 13 - besides that fact that they could have done better with the coil whine engineering thing, it is lighter, smaller in footprint, has Kaby Lake. And Dell stayed in the real world with its connectivity selection - USB-A, USB-C with Thunderbolt, SD. There are other problems this device has of course, but with the time (several years) and the manpower and money of Apple, the engineering should have been more than possible!

andrewjoy

03 Nov 2016, 10:27

Your exactly right ! They had this down a few years ago pro with all the ports and the likes for you know professionals , and the air for everyone else .

Why is this so hard for apple to understand, the pro is now an air with a better screen , even more so than it was.


Oh Apple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYVjIjBMx6o

wifi and USB at the same time , who would want that

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

03 Nov 2016, 12:02

Apple could have thrown people a bone by allowing them to choose a few adapters, at no extra cost, when they purchased their Macbook Pro from the website, as measure to ease the transition. Realistically, nobody has all USB Type C devices and will need a half dozen adapters for still common connections like USB Type A, HDMI, SD cards, Ethernet, etc. These adapters probably cost them $1-$2 to make and the markup on the Apple store is insane.

What they are doing now is just being asshats forcing you to adapt to a world that does not exist yet, even in their own ecosystem (hello Lightning connector), a world full of USB Type C devices. They are emulating one of my favorite movie quotes of all time from Caddyshack: "You'll get nothing and like it!"
Last edited by vivalarevolución on 03 Nov 2016, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.

andrewjoy

03 Nov 2016, 12:18

Just no , i don't want to carry around a load of stupid adaptors that can break or get lost or left at home when you need them. There LOADS of room on the side of that macbook for a normal USB and an SD reader, or you know stick with the old design and put in your fancy new keyboard and use all the space for extra battery , win win for all , but no it has to be thinner so all the rich kids on youtube with there mum and dads credit card can buy it to stick on there desk.

There is a solution.

Just buy the 2015 model , that is a good product , sure it has issues but its way way way better than the new one.

Post Reply

Return to “Off-topic”