New Macbook Pro with Touch Bar

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caligo

03 Nov 2016, 13:49

To me, the biggest mystery is how this fits in Apple's general strategy. Is the headphone jack going away or not? If they really wanted to push the industry in that direction, shouldn't they have removed it from their laptops as well? And USB C is nice and all, but why then do they insist on those lightning ports for the iOS units? You need an adapter to connect your new iPhone to your new MacBook (or at least another cable than the one that came in the box) – that's just ludicrous. Had they removed the headphone jack from all of their devices and switched the iOS line to USB C, it would have been an easier sell since they would just push really hard for an industry standard. The current state of things just seems confused.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

03 Nov 2016, 15:56

I agree, I can't figure out Apple's general strategy or direction they are going with all these recent updates. It mostly seems to be "look at our shiny new stuff with a couple distinguishing features, but is incompatible with the rest of the devices in our ecosystem and your current devices. But trust us! In the future, they all will work together seamlessly. Oh, and they cost $500 more than they used to."

From my viewpoint, the price premium gives you the superior hardware-software integration, a history of better reliability (but you can't fix or upgrade anything on your own if the device breaks, which will cost you), and best resale value in the industry. Others value Apple devices for different reasons, but that's what I value them for. To me, the price premium and adapter juggling act simply are not worth it to me. And I used to love Apple devices.

I wonder if sales of the previous generation Macbook Pro will emulate what happened with the Mac Mini. When Apple released the latest gen of the Mac Mini a couple years ago, it had soldered RAM, a hard-to-access storage drive, and did not offer a quad core option. It seemed that Apple intended to push more serious desktop customers to the iMac or even Macbook Pro 15", but kept the Mac Mini as a entry level device to rope in newer Apple customers at the lowest price point. The demand and prices on the second-hand market for the previous generation Mac Mini increased afterwards.

andrewjoy

03 Nov 2016, 16:36

They had the new macbook planned , not switching the new iPhone to USBC is just insane, i mean fine if you want to go full USBC and piss everyone off thats cool , but at least be consistent about it.

As you say , not being able to plug your brand new iphone into your brand new mac is just absolutely stupid, and if you think thats ok then you are a blinkered apple fanboy, its just not ok.

And look at the problems the mac has , with USB devices causing the wifi to drop out, or screwing and gluing the bottom plate on , and having your stupid none standard SSD or a tamper sticker over the battery screw, thats not acceptable for a laptop where its base model ( without the stupid touch bar) is almost £1500 its just not.

With apple products at least in the past between say 2005 and 2013 it was all about the user experience and the rock solid hardware and software, you get it out of the box and it just works, no fuss no bother, even down to the experience of the store, fantastic.

That was worth something , it gives the product value, and that makes the higher price over a crap PC you would buy as a consumer ( not that PCs are crap but that the rubbish you buy in a big store is) worth it.

But now ? This problem that problem , software thats not qa tested properly , hardware thats not fit for purpose ( the new Macbook(none pro) thermal throttles ), all sorts of other crap.

The user will wonder why they pay that premium, when they could get a surface pro or a dell or hp for much less that has way more ports , better features for much less money, and with a company that respects what the user needs.

But who am i do judge , it will sell like hotcakes to hipsters as it looks cool on there desk that looks like it has never seen a days work.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

03 Nov 2016, 17:22

That was the thing for me, the price premium for what was offered simply was not worth it. I could buy a desktop and laptop with upgradeable components for the price of a capable, locked down Macbook. I am pickier than most consumers, but I wonder how many others feel this way.

User avatar
Menuhin

03 Nov 2016, 17:47

Something similarly smart-ass is the 'touch keyboard' of the new Lenovo Yoga Book:

I normally rest my fingers on the home row, but that just by touching the surface, keys are pressed already.
http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptop ... ok-windows

jacobolus

03 Nov 2016, 21:13

chuckdee wrote: I think that's what everyone is arguing... so perhaps, it's you that's arguing a different point?
WTF?

You quoted me directly talking about Type B connectors, which was a direct response I made to someone else talking about type B connectors.

The part you quoted had nothing to do with your comment in response. I’m not sure if you’re being deliberately obtuse, or just don’t bother to read comments before quoting them.

jacobolus

03 Nov 2016, 21:27

Anyhow, it’s kind of depressing how much everyone on a forum devoted to input devices cares about legacy connectors, and how little anyone is interested in a brand new input device (touch bar thingy), a different keyboard switch, and perhaps the best display ever on a notebook. Arguably the keyboard is unpleasant (low travel) and the touch bar may turn out to be nothing but a lame gimmick, but there should at least be something to talk about there.

Also surprising that there hasn’t been any discussion of Microsoft’s new fancy drafting table touchscreen thingy on this forum.

jacobolus

03 Nov 2016, 21:36

caligo wrote: Is the headphone jack going away or not? If they really wanted to push the industry in that direction, shouldn't they have removed it from their laptops as well? And USB C is nice and all, but why then do they insist on those lightning ports for the iOS units? [...] The current state of things just seems confused.
You can pretty much answer this by just looking at the device dimensions. The headphone jack and USB Type C are too big for their desired phone dimensions (probably also harder to waterproof), and the legacy USB Type A, Magsafe, HDMI, and Thunderbolt 2/Mini DisplayPort are all too big for their desired laptop dimensions.

The “current state of things” is that for PCs, they’re moving toward having nothing but USB Type C / Thunderbolt 3, headphone jack, and bluetooth, whereas on the phone/tablet side they’re moving toward having nothing but Lightning ports and bluetooth.

In Apple’s ideal world, peripherals (headphones, input devices, networking, etc...) are wireless, and anything that needs extreme bandwidth/low latency/power transmission is done via USB Type C or Lightning connectors.

User avatar
caligo

03 Nov 2016, 21:49

The display seems terrific! :)

However, the general sentiment seems to be that the touchbar and 'new' keyswitches are a gimmick more than anything else. I've tried the keyboard on the new Macbook, the one without 'pro' in the name, which has the same keyswitch design. It's impressive what they've managed to do with so little space, but the key travel is simply to short – it's like typing on a touchscreen. The addition of a function row that's actually a touchscreen with zero key travel is probably not going to sell it for me. And the damn thing clicks, which is nice for when you are at home but sucks when you're in a library or in a lecture.

Those scissor switches are perfectly fine for casual browsing and stuff like that, but it's not something I'd want to use for doing serious work. I have a Logitech KeysToGo for my android tablet. It's an impressive piece of engineering and good for what it is, but I'd never use it for writing something like an essay. I have a hard time getting excited about something like that, interesting as it might be from a technical standpoint.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

03 Nov 2016, 23:18

jacobolus wrote: Anyhow, it’s kind of depressing how much everyone on a forum devoted to input devices cares about legacy connectors, and how little anyone is interested in a brand new input device (touch bar thingy), a different keyboard switch, and perhaps the best display ever on a notebook. Arguably the keyboard is unpleasant (low travel) and the touch bar may turn out to be nothing but a lame gimmick, but there should at least be something to talk about there.

Also surprising that there hasn’t been any discussion of Microsoft’s new fancy drafting table touchscreen thingy on this forum.
Any reason why you think this is the case?

My guess is that all these new devices cost way more than most of us are willing to spend for what you get, and touchscreens are not well regarded as effective input devices. I am not aware too many high resolution display fanatics here, which look beautiful but can render font and applications to a tinier-than-usable level, especially for Linux users. The keyboard switch is an interesting piece of technology, but hardly offers the tactile feedback favored by users of mechanical keyboards. And if you read earlier in the thread, you will find various individuals that discussed the potential functionality of the touchbar and the technology behind it.

jacobolus

04 Nov 2016, 00:46

I think the touch bar is potentially a very interesting input device (at least as hardware, depending on how well its software works), certainly more useful than stupid “F” keys, which should have been dropped from keyboards 20 years ago. The place where we need more keys is down by the thumbs and between the two hands, with smarter use of the regular modifiers and letter keys (more custom layers, etc.), not slow-to-reach keys at the top of the keyboard.

[As you probably remember, I favor a general-purpose keyboard design along the lines of:
Image
]

I’d love to have more analog inputs included on every machine, in addition to (instead of as a replacement for) a keyboard with hardware buttons. If they could be relied on to exist, then application software could do a bunch of pretty neat stuff with it, especially if holding down modifier keys could change the touch bar content.

(My preference would be for physical analog inputs such as trackballs, mouse wheels, sliders, jog dials, etc. But those are not realistic to put on a laptop for space reasons.)

I wonder if Apple would consider selling stand-alone touch bars that could be used in conjunction with any arbitrary keyboard. Otherwise, the primary problem I have with the touch-bar is that it’s only on some devices, and seems unlikely to ever hit anything close to Mac market saturation, which means software creators can’t rely on users having it, which means they can’t make it a core feature of their apps, but only a secondary/alternative interface.

This is the same problem faced by e.g. the iPhone’s “force click” feature. Because it is only included on new devices, software authors can’t depend on it, which means that it can’t be used for critical features, which means that app authors don’t bother using it and phone customers don’t bother searching for force click implementations. This means it ends up being a bit of an annoying gimmick.

Touch screens in general can be *very* effective input devices for interfaces which focus on content over “chrome”. They primarily suck for typing and precise selection, but they’re pretty precise for picking up relative motions, and a mouse can’t come close to “multitouch” for adjusting multiple analog inputs at a time.

One nice thing about a touch bar is that if it is heavily user customizable, functions can still be very discoverable/memorable because it’s a screen (just look at them) even when they change from application to application, compared to functions applied to generically labeled hardware buttons. With displays getting bigger and bigger, mouse-navigated menus are becoming more and more difficult to drive. They require moving the mouse cursor away from its current position and then back, which requires moving the hands significantly away from the keyboard. It takes conscious attention to find menu options because the cursor is coming from a different place on screen every time. A touch bar by contrast has a cursor-independent placement in the physical world. Of course there are other alternative ideas like mouse-cursor-centered radial menus (as seen in some pro software), but these tend to see only niche uses.

* * *

Personally I wish we could have a 6–10 inch tablet in the middle of a split keyboard serving as both a touchpad for moving an external display cursor, and as a touchscreen with various user interface controls on it, and maybe even also as a drawing tablet with a stylus.

If such a thing could be relied on, some really kickass software could be made. Unfortunately right now we have these split tablet vs. PC user interface paradigms, and nearly nobody has been doing work on integrating the two in a meaningful way. (Microsoft’s version, where you have software designed for one or the other coexisting on the same device which can be put in one mode or another is a huge shit sandwich. Not what I’m talking about.)

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

04 Nov 2016, 01:04

Everything that we learned from the wisdom of IBM's Common User Access (CUA) has been thrown away instead of updated when the idioms become outdated. With the ribbon, and now with the touch bar. I.e. the premise was you knew you could find Print under the File menu with every application. While with the ribbon, you have to learn where the print icon is for every application. The touch bar is the same. From pretty common and expected functionality across applications, you now have to learn what the bar does for a specific application. Sure some parts of the CUA were outdated since the Internet, since Mosaic. But I'd have liked an update. Of course the advantage of context-sensitive ribbons and touch bars is that such functionality can be optimised for each application, but we shouldn't forget the disadvantage, which is a steeper learning curve for each new app you use. Where the fuck is the Print button on the ribbon for this app? How can I cancel the dialog window in this app, there is no Esc key? How do I get Full screen mode?

jacobolus

04 Nov 2016, 01:31

IBM’s “Common User Access” was a half-assed imitation of the Apple HIG, but designed for inferior and less standardized hardware. Apple’s user interface people in the mid 1980s were the best in the industry by a wide margin.

Agreed that Apple hasn’t done the best job keeping up with the original goals of the HIG though. It’s not much defense that everyone else is still even worse.

axtran

04 Nov 2016, 02:43

jacobolus wrote:IBM’s “Common User Access” was a half-assed imitation of the Apple HIG, but designed for inferior and less standardized hardware. Apple’s user interface people in the mid 1980s were the best in the industry by a wide margin.

Agreed that Apple hasn’t done the best job keeping up with the original goals of the HIG though. It’s not much defense that everyone else is still even worse.
You captured it well. However, in the spirit of competition, I feel like we are forsaking the concept of computing and trying to push the bar and redefine what needs no redefining--all for profits.

Some may complain a ThinkPad is boring and ugly, but my new one that I purchased since the MacBook Pro moved away from me is just superb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Findecanor

04 Nov 2016, 03:44

IBM's CUA is the one that mandates the use of Shift+Insert and Ctrl+Insert for Copy and Paste ...

Mac never really took the function keys seriously. They were introduced first with the Apple Extended Keyboard while keyboards without function keys were being offered simultaneously.
After Jobs had been ousted from Apple in '85, his NeXT computer did not have function keys either. I would think that they were being kept for Microsoft Word ...

And BTW, Apple's Touch Bar still has an Escape key. It is just a touch key and it can change legend depending on the context. But it is still fixed on the left end of the touch bar.
jacobolus wrote: Personally I wish we could have a 6–10 inch tablet in the middle of a split keyboard serving as both a touchpad for moving an external display cursor, and as a touchscreen with various user interface controls on it, and maybe even also as a drawing tablet with a stylus.
Like all those instances of Apple Trackpads being placed in the middle between the two key-wells on a Kinesis.
With a touch-screen instead of trackpad you could have a numeric touch-keypad here, like the numeric keypads on a Maltron.

Here's something else... I think you know this one but others might not: The Japanese B-Tron keyboard.
That grid in the front is not a touchpad but a graphics tablet. The stylus is missing from the image; it is otherwise stored in one of the two holders.
TRON PMC-TK1 top.jpg
TRON PMC-TK1 top.jpg (50.06 KiB) Viewed 5727 times

face

04 Nov 2016, 08:30

Ok, now I am being fanboy, but...

THE STARTUP SOUND IS GONE! :'(

User avatar
cookie

04 Nov 2016, 09:09

Image

I rest my case...

jacobolus

04 Nov 2016, 21:31

http://www.imore.com/apple-usb-c-thunde ... -price-cut
"We are extremely excited about the new MacBook Pro, which is the best pro notebook we've ever made," an Apple spokesperson told iMore. "It has the fastest CPU, graphics, memory, storage and I/O, best display, the innovative Touch Bar and more. MacBook Pro uses the most advanced industry-standard connector, USB-C with Thunderbolt 3, to provide maximum performance, expandability and compatibility.

"We recognize that many users, especially pros, rely on legacy connectors to get work done today and they face a transition. We want to help them move to the latest technology and peripherals, as well as accelerate the growth of this new ecosystem. Through the end of the year, we are reducing prices on all USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 peripherals we sell, as well as the prices on Apple's USB-C adapters and cables."

[...]

USB-C to USB Adapter from $19 to $9
Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter from $49 to $29
USB-C to Lightning Cable (1m) from $25to $19
USB-C to Lightning Cable (2m) from $35 to $29
USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49
USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49

User avatar
Muirium
µ

04 Nov 2016, 21:56

As everyone knows: I like Apple, especially their Retina display hardware.
And as everyone can guess: I like the new MacBook Pro. Played with one at the store the other evening. The keyboard is very much like the one on the MacBook. Which I prefer over the old Pro's because neither of them are up to much, and at least this one's thinner.

But boy have they porked the spaniel on the messaging around this launch. Step 1: Reassure desktop users their new shit is still in the oven. Yes, even if it involves trash talking Intel. They're Apple, they enjoy that stuff. What gives?

User avatar
caligo

04 Nov 2016, 22:10

jacobolus wrote: http://www.imore.com/apple-usb-c-thunde ... -price-cut
"We are extremely excited about the new MacBook Pro, which is the best pro notebook we've ever made," an Apple spokesperson told iMore. "It has the fastest CPU, graphics, memory, storage and I/O, best display, the innovative Touch Bar and more. MacBook Pro uses the most advanced industry-standard connector, USB-C with Thunderbolt 3, to provide maximum performance, expandability and compatibility.

"We recognize that many users, especially pros, rely on legacy connectors to get work done today and they face a transition. We want to help them move to the latest technology and peripherals, as well as accelerate the growth of this new ecosystem. Through the end of the year, we are reducing prices on all USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 peripherals we sell, as well as the prices on Apple's USB-C adapters and cables."

[...]

USB-C to USB Adapter from $19 to $9
Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter from $49 to $29
USB-C to Lightning Cable (1m) from $25to $19
USB-C to Lightning Cable (2m) from $35 to $29
USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49
USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49
That's just… Wow.

I remember when I bought my white MacBook back in the day, and got like a bazillion dongles and adapters in the box. Now they don't even include that extension cable for the power brick, apparently. Just 49 dollars for that VGA adapter? What a great deal! I realise I'm starting to sound like some curmudgeon who thinks everything was better in his youth, but would it really cost them that much to just bundle a few adapters with the damn thing? At least the USB C to Lightning cable, that would probably constitute the bare minimum of decency.

I've always had a soft spot for Apple's hardware, and owned a bunch of it over the years (when I was a kid, the first computer we had was a Macintosh Classic). They're kind of like Sony, they build somewhat weird proprietary stuff that fairly often turns out kind of awesome. But right now, it's like they've lost their mojo. :(

jacobolus

04 Nov 2016, 22:49

caligo wrote: Just 49 dollars for that VGA adapter? What a great deal! I realise I'm starting to sound like some curmudgeon who thinks everything was better in his youth, but would it really cost them that much to just bundle a few adapters with the damn thing?
To be fair, these are active adapters with pretty much whole little computers included inside. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were basically selling them at cost, or maybe 10–20% margin, after those price cuts.

Here’s a thunderbolt to firewire adapter:
Image

User avatar
caligo

05 Nov 2016, 09:16

I'm sure some of the adapters cost a fair buck to make, but they could still be bundled considering how expensive the laptop itself is. The new iPhone comes with a free headphone adapter, a thing that contains a DAC and amplifier.

I'm all for USB C, one standard cable for everything is a good thing. But they should have gone that route with their consumer models first, not the pro laptop that people buy as a desktop replacement.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Nov 2016, 09:26

I believe Apple made a smart move by releasing just these (overpriced) laptops at this time. Considering how old the other Macs are now, these laptops are the only way you can use macos today (if you are in for a new pc). It's not a matter of lack of ports or cost of adapters, to me it is simply not worth the price, but I bet for some is a great value and they don't mind the steep entry cost.

face

05 Nov 2016, 09:59

What most people seem to forget: adapters, especially the complex ones, produce problems themselves and sometimes even fail. Just look at the ratings in the Apple store and Amazon. I'll give you an example, of course:

I wanted to buy the thunderbolt to ethernet adapter from Apple. So that the two stupid holes in my MBP have at least one function. BUT - there seems to be a lot problems with this. Doesn't work initially, loosing connection after some time, defect after a year. Alright, that could be consumer failure too, but it seems they also draw a lot of power! Some german users measured a 3W higher power consumption with the adapter plugged in! One guy said he is loosing 2h of battery life with it.

Now, I don't want to know how much a bunch of active adapters draw.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 Nov 2016, 13:20

caligo wrote: To be fair, these are active adapters with pretty much whole little computers included inside. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were basically selling them at cost, or maybe 10–20% margin, after those price cuts.

Here’s a thunderbolt to firewire adapter:
Looks to me like a couple of dollars a piece if you'd buy a couple of thousand from China.

andrewjoy

05 Nov 2016, 14:07

matt3o wrote: I believe Apple made a smart move by releasing just these (overpriced) laptops at this time. Considering how old the other Macs are now, these laptops are the only way you can use macos today (if you are in for a new pc). It's not a matter of lack of ports or cost of adapters, to me it is simply not worth the price, but I bet for some is a great value and they don't mind the steep entry cost.

If you want to use OSX then you can use a desktop , get a macpro 4,1 or 5,1 put some better processors in it, more ram and a second hand GPU add in a USB 3 card and a M.2 to PCIe and then laugh at the pathetic multi core performance than the current bin mac pro.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

05 Nov 2016, 14:36

jacobolus wrote: http://www.imore.com/apple-usb-c-thunde ... -price-cut
"We are extremely excited about the new MacBook Pro, which is the best pro notebook we've ever made," an Apple spokesperson told iMore. "It has the fastest CPU, graphics, memory, storage and I/O, best display, the innovative Touch Bar and more. MacBook Pro uses the most advanced industry-standard connector, USB-C with Thunderbolt 3, to provide maximum performance, expandability and compatibility.

"We recognize that many users, especially pros, rely on legacy connectors to get work done today and they face a transition. We want to help them move to the latest technology and peripherals, as well as accelerate the growth of this new ecosystem. Through the end of the year, we are reducing prices on all USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 peripherals we sell, as well as the prices on Apple's USB-C adapters and cables."

[...]

USB-C to USB Adapter from $19 to $9
Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter from $49 to $29
USB-C to Lightning Cable (1m) from $25to $19
USB-C to Lightning Cable (2m) from $35 to $29
USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49
USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter from $69 to $49
Apple must be reading Deskthority!

I still believe Apple should be offering at least a couple free adapters for the buyer when they purchase any of their USB-C only devices. We all know the profit margin on these thing is healthy enough to give away a couple adapters per device for a limited amount of time. In fact, I could see such a move boosting volume sales and resulting in greater overall profit. Consumers love the idea of free stuff, even when the free stuff technically is not free.

But what do I know, I am not a marketing expert or businessman.
Last edited by vivalarevolución on 05 Nov 2016, 16:19, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 Nov 2016, 14:42

Yeah they sell a very expensive machine, which is incomplete for everyday use. For the price a couple should have been included.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

05 Nov 2016, 14:46

If the reduced priced adapters gimmick doesn't work, I think we will see a price drop on the Macbook Pro itself. I highly doubt Apple will include adapters with the machine, that just isn't their style these days.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

05 Nov 2016, 16:03


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