New Macbook Pro with Touch Bar

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

05 Nov 2016, 16:53

jacobolus wrote:
Spoiler:
I think the touch bar is potentially a very interesting input device (at least as hardware, depending on how well its software works), certainly more useful than stupid “F” keys, which should have been dropped from keyboards 20 years ago. The place where we need more keys is down by the thumbs and between the two hands, with smarter use of the regular modifiers and letter keys (more custom layers, etc.), not slow-to-reach keys at the top of the keyboard.

[As you probably remember, I favor a general-purpose keyboard design along the lines of:
Image
]

I’d love to have more analog inputs included on every machine, in addition to (instead of as a replacement for) a keyboard with hardware buttons. If they could be relied on to exist, then application software could do a bunch of pretty neat stuff with it, especially if holding down modifier keys could change the touch bar content.

(My preference would be for physical analog inputs such as trackballs, mouse wheels, sliders, jog dials, etc. But those are not realistic to put on a laptop for space reasons.)

I wonder if Apple would consider selling stand-alone touch bars that could be used in conjunction with any arbitrary keyboard. Otherwise, the primary problem I have with the touch-bar is that it’s only on some devices, and seems unlikely to ever hit anything close to Mac market saturation, which means software creators can’t rely on users having it, which means they can’t make it a core feature of their apps, but only a secondary/alternative interface.

This is the same problem faced by e.g. the iPhone’s “force click” feature. Because it is only included on new devices, software authors can’t depend on it, which means that it can’t be used for critical features, which means that app authors don’t bother using it and phone customers don’t bother searching for force click implementations. This means it ends up being a bit of an annoying gimmick.

Touch screens in general can be *very* effective input devices for interfaces which focus on content over “chrome”. They primarily suck for typing and precise selection, but they’re pretty precise for picking up relative motions, and a mouse can’t come close to “multitouch” for adjusting multiple analog inputs at a time.

One nice thing about a touch bar is that if it is heavily user customizable, functions can still be very discoverable/memorable because it’s a screen (just look at them) even when they change from application to application, compared to functions applied to generically labeled hardware buttons. With displays getting bigger and bigger, mouse-navigated menus are becoming more and more difficult to drive. They require moving the mouse cursor away from its current position and then back, which requires moving the hands significantly away from the keyboard. It takes conscious attention to find menu options because the cursor is coming from a different place on screen every time. A touch bar by contrast has a cursor-independent placement in the physical world. Of course there are other alternative ideas like mouse-cursor-centered radial menus (as seen in some pro software), but these tend to see only niche uses.

* * *

Personally I wish we could have a 6–10 inch tablet in the middle of a split keyboard serving as both a touchpad for moving an external display cursor, and as a touchscreen with various user interface controls on it, and maybe even also as a drawing tablet with a stylus.

If such a thing could be relied on, some really kickass software could be made. Unfortunately right now we have these split tablet vs. PC user interface paradigms, and nearly nobody has been doing work on integrating the two in a meaningful way. (Microsoft’s version, where you have software designed for one or the other coexisting on the same device which can be put in one mode or another is a huge shit sandwich. Not what I’m talking about.)
I agree, the possibilities of a Touchbar or little customizable touchscreen/tablet are very interesting. Such an addition could bring an unprecedented level of functionality to a keyboard.

However, my personal experience of putting a touchpad or touchscreen in the middle of an ergonomic keyboard produces a less-than-desirable result. I experimented with an Apple Trackpad in the middle of both a Kinesis Advantage and Ergodox, and found that it canceled out the ergonomic benefits of such keyboards. First of all, touchpads are not inherently ergonomic, and can produce all types of stresses on the fingers, hands, and wrists. Our hands are not evolved for constant contact with flat surfaces, they are made to grab stuff. Second, the touchpad in the middle of the keyboard requires a great deal of hand/arm movement that the user is trying to reduce with an ergonomic keyboard.

A little trackpoint or trackball or even little rollermouse-type thing could be a better option that requires less movement from the home row. Pair that with a little touchscreen in the middle to offer additional features and functionality. Tablets have proven to be incredibly useful for certain applications. But in terms of using a touchpad as the primary pointing device with a split ergonomic keyboard, it does not work well, in my personal experience.

The most ergonomic keyboard/pointing device combo I have ever used is the Maltron with the trackball and numberpad in the middle. The area with the trackball is cleverly designed to allow your thumb to use the trackball, your fingers to use the mouse buttons, and easily access the numberpad for using the navigation functions, all in a very comfortable, naturally cupped position for extended use.

axtran

05 Nov 2016, 17:06

andrewjoy wrote:
matt3o wrote: I believe Apple made a smart move by releasing just these (overpriced) laptops at this time. Considering how old the other Macs are now, these laptops are the only way you can use macos today (if you are in for a new pc). It's not a matter of lack of ports or cost of adapters, to me it is simply not worth the price, but I bet for some is a great value and they don't mind the steep entry cost.

If you want to use OSX then you can use a desktop , get a macpro 4,1 or 5,1 put some better processors in it, more ram and a second hand GPU add in a USB 3 card and a M.2 to PCIe and then laugh at the pathetic multi core performance than the current bin mac pro.
I'm gonna sink tons of money into my trash can Mac Pro. I damn love it. (Bought it on eBay for $800, don't think the person listing it knew what it was).


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User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

05 Nov 2016, 19:33

axtran wrote:
andrewjoy wrote:
matt3o wrote: I believe Apple made a smart move by releasing just these (overpriced) laptops at this time. Considering how old the other Macs are now, these laptops are the only way you can use macos today (if you are in for a new pc). It's not a matter of lack of ports or cost of adapters, to me it is simply not worth the price, but I bet for some is a great value and they don't mind the steep entry cost.

If you want to use OSX then you can use a desktop , get a macpro 4,1 or 5,1 put some better processors in it, more ram and a second hand GPU add in a USB 3 card and a M.2 to PCIe and then laugh at the pathetic multi core performance than the current bin mac pro.
I'm gonna sink tons of money into my trash can Mac Pro. I damn love it. (Bought it on eBay for $800, don't think the person listing it knew what it was).


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I actually love the design of those things. But It sort of boggles my mind why Apple has not updated those things in THREE YEARS. I am not expecting a complete redesign, but just some later generation components. They probably on working on redesign that is not user upgradeable.

axtran

05 Nov 2016, 19:39

Yeah, I need more memory, more storage, but an upgrade to Ivy Bridge-E is awesome.


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jacobolus

07 Nov 2016, 05:56

vivalarevolución wrote: I actually love the design of those things. But It sort of boggles my mind why Apple has not updated those things in THREE YEARS. I am not expecting a complete redesign, but just some later generation components. They probably on working on redesign that is not user upgradeable.
My guess has been that Apple made a wrong bet on Intel’s roadmap, which has slipped significantly in the past couple years.

I think they want to go all USB Type C / Thunderbolt 3, etc. There are several hardware transitions which are in progress now which afterward should be settled for another several years, letting everyone get back to a schedule of regular minor spec bumps without major internal reorganization.

This seems about right http://www.macworld.com/article/3138087 ... e-mac.html

But who knows, maybe they had less demand for Mac Pros than expected and just deprioritized it overall.

jacobolus

07 Nov 2016, 06:27

Inre touchbar, Bret Victor tweets:

“almost exactly eight years from concept to production

“Pretty sure most people will find contextual controls like two-finger scrolling -- after a year, any computer without them will feel broken.

“Pretty sure that moving a mouse pointer to an onscreen toolbar will soon feel as bizarre and anachronistic as manually dragging a scrollbar.

“But hey, don't let me rain on the internet bandwagon hate parade!

“This is how I picture "internet commentary": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-QpfLV8dQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSD07U5uBs&t=34m12s
Image

[He presumably worked on prototypes of the Touch Bar while at Apple. Anyone on a forum related to computer interfaces who doesn’t know Bret Victor’s work should be ashamed, and then go do some research.]

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

07 Nov 2016, 09:45

many new technologies and paradigms have been tested during the years. some failed, some stuck. some failed at first but the time wasn't simply right and when presented again years later they worked (think of the selfie stick).

is the contextual touch bar a good thing? I don't know. Do I like it? I don't know because the price they make me pay for it right now is not simply worth the effort.

face

07 Nov 2016, 18:05

Yeah, the touch bar might be really good. No question. But there you are - again captive of the Apple eco system. What do you do if you have a Macbook Pro that you want to dock at your workplace or at home? If it really feels broken, you'll have to buy a Apple keyboard with it (that isn't on the market!). And of course a Apple mouse, because of the gestures.

That eco system thing never was bad - in fact I liked the safety and reliability that brought - ... until they made it unaffordable. Their world only works if you invest as much as a car and stuff your house full with it.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

07 Nov 2016, 18:25

Yeah, it has the same problem that all different keyboards (ergonomic and such) and keyboard layouts had, and among the problems why none really won the game.

Let's say you really like the touchbar. And then you go to work and the computer there has no touchbar. And then your laptop grows old, there's another nice laptop, but without a touchbar. Your touchbar usage doesn't stick. The touchbar is not universal. And very expensive.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

07 Nov 2016, 18:36

The nice thing about this whole new Macbook is that my family has enough Apple fanboys that somebody will inevitably buy one of these and then I can use it without having to buy it. In fact, my brother already announced that he will sell some of his current Apple stuff to buy the new Macbook. Hopefully, he will have it by the holiday season. My wallet wins, and I win.

Findecanor

07 Nov 2016, 20:52

A design of an interaction or presentation is bad if it makes the user having to switch his focus between near and far.
- That is why legends on keys are only a guide and the ultimate goal is to teach the typist to be able to use blank keys.
- That is one reason why stereoscopic 3D is limiting cinematography, diminishing the art.
- That is why sheeple deeply concentrated in their touchscreen cellphones are really stupid in interactions with other pedestrians, railway crossings and obstructions and why cell phone use should be banned on public quays. I wish that cell phones would have got good speech-recognition first. If I could choose I would rather have a cell-connected tablet in my back-pack and a Bluetooth handset in my pocket instead of everything crammed into one small device with crummy battery life.
Last edited by Findecanor on 07 Nov 2016, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
chuckdee

07 Nov 2016, 21:32

matt3o wrote: is the contextual touch bar a good thing? I don't know. Do I like it? I don't know because the price they make me pay for it right now is not simply worth the effort.
You nailed it.

User avatar
Khers

07 Nov 2016, 22:02

In general, I think that Apple is on the right track. In my mind, there is no question that USB C/Thunderbolt 3 is the way forward. Connecting a single cable, an orientation agnostic one at that, when I'm on my desk sounds like heaven compared to the three I have today (out of which two do care about which direction I plug them in).

As I haven't tried it yet, I can't give a verdict on the touch bar. However, seeing as it replaces the F-row, it can't be all bad. It will surely perform all the things that's usually done on the F-row anyway. I am intrigued about how it works in practice, however. If it's done correctly, I think that something like the touch bar could be awesome, but it is up to the software developers to make good use of it. That it is a screen rather than a row of key switches matters very little in my opinion. It's not as if they went and replaced some Topre domes with a touch screen.

That said, I'm still very hesitant as to whether I will ever buy one of the new pros, but that is based on price alone. Well and the fact that I got the previous generation and don't feel like I have any need to upgrade just yet. For when the time comes to do so, however, I sincerely hope that the dollar will have plummeted. :)

User avatar
caligo

07 Nov 2016, 22:11

webwit wrote: Yeah, it has the same problem that all different keyboards (ergonomic and such) and keyboard layouts had, and among the problems why none really won the game.

Let's say you really like the touchbar. And then you go to work and the computer there has no touchbar. And then your laptop grows old, there's another nice laptop, but without a touchbar. Your touchbar usage doesn't stick. The touchbar is not universal. And very expensive.
That's actually a very valid point, that also brings the discussion back to that which we all geek out over – keyboards. :geek:

It's kind of strange how they didn't release an updated keyboard for their desktop computers at the same event. After all, most pro users have a stand for their laptop to get it in line with a larger screen, and use an external mouse and keyboard – making that fancy touchbar all but useless when you're at your office. Gimmick or not, limiting it to just part of your product line is probably not the best way to go about making it the new cool way to interact with computers.

EDIT: Thinking about it, the best way to go about this would probably be just having a touchbar API that any hardware manifacturer can use. That way, they could have Logitech and the likes making touchbar keyboards for them. That could actually be quite neat.

User avatar
Julle

08 Nov 2016, 09:36

Julle wrote: So, each and every one of these new Macbooks has the SSD storage soldered on the motherboard.
Removable SSD but with a proprietary connector. RAM is soldered on. :roll:

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

13 Nov 2016, 20:54

Okay, so new Macbook Pro sales are killing it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecroth ... a0ca0b6194

axtran

13 Nov 2016, 23:58

vivalarevolución wrote:Okay, so new Macbook Pro sales are killing it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecroth ... a0ca0b6194
They're not made for enthusiasts is why we are up in arms. The general public will reaffirm that all decisions were awesome, though. :(


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User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

14 Nov 2016, 00:03

Quoting the same article:
“What really drove a ton of the revenue here is the sales in the first day or two, probably before the negative reviews surfaced.”
...
“The other thing to consider is, this is revenue. Because the MacBook Pro is so high priced, perhaps that is driving the MacBook Pro to be even higher than some of the other laptops,”
This actually confirms that the macbook is incredibly overpriced :) We didn't need the graphs to know that :D

User avatar
ohaimark
Kingpin

14 Nov 2016, 00:06

caligo wrote: EDIT: Thinking about it, the best way to go about this would probably be just having a touchbar API that any hardware manifacturer can use. That way, they could have Logitech and the likes making touchbar keyboards for them. That could actually be quite neat.
Apple? Make something that isn't proprietary? HAHA. Heh.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

14 Nov 2016, 02:10

matt3o wrote: Quoting the same article:
“What really drove a ton of the revenue here is the sales in the first day or two, probably before the negative reviews surfaced.”
...
“The other thing to consider is, this is revenue. Because the MacBook Pro is so high priced, perhaps that is driving the MacBook Pro to be even higher than some of the other laptops,”
This actually confirms that the macbook is incredibly overpriced :) We didn't need the graphs to know that :D
Good point. Apple cares more about revenue than numbers, this could be one of those moves that may reduce the overall customer base but increase the total revenue.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

14 Nov 2016, 02:20

I'm not sure what the strategy is. Clearly moving towards the prosumer who wants to sit in Starbucks and show off the laptop. Is it more profitable? Maybe. But on the other hand, laptops are such a small part of their profit nowadays, and both their OS and hardware updates have been lackluster (compared to mobile) I think the past few years (being surpassed by f*cking MS at some points), that it seems they no longer really care about getting that business, or the mindshare among professionals. Just milking what remains.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

14 Nov 2016, 03:07

webwit wrote: I'm not sure what the strategy is. Clearly moving towards the prosumer who wants to sit in Starbucks and show off the laptop. Is it more profitable? Maybe. But on the other hand, laptops are such a small part of their profit nowadays, and both their OS and hardware updates have been lackluster (compared to mobile) I think the past few years (being surpassed by f*cking MS at some points), that it seems they no longer really care about getting that business, or the mindshare among professionals. Just milking what remains.
Clearly you have not traveled to America recently. They have the coffee shop market cornered here.

I often forget how much of their sales are coming from mobile these days, mostly because I don't give two shits about mobile devices. Perhaps the move was to squeeze as much profit from the Mac line as possible, and not worry so much about the units sold. Focus on moving units on the mobile market.

The lack of focus on the desktop OS actually is why I stopped using Apple. It was feeling more and more like iOS, one of the major updates (El Capitan?) cannabalized a bunch of features I used regularly and then I had to reconfigure my OS settings, and it generally was no longer a smooth workflow.

Whatever, I'm just mentally masturbating here.
Last edited by vivalarevolución on 14 Nov 2016, 03:32, edited 1 time in total.

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Nov 2016, 03:10

vivalarevolución wrote: Clearly you have not traveled to America recently. They have the coffee shop market cornered here.
I haven't. Coffee shop means something different here. :lol:

axtran

14 Nov 2016, 04:17

webwit wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: Clearly you have not traveled to America recently. They have the coffee shop market cornered here.
I haven't. Coffee shop means something different here. :lol:
Not some place you show off your laptop but really are just sitting there and using YouTube, headphones optional? [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]


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User avatar
Menuhin

17 Nov 2016, 18:04

One thing we might have missed, it has some kind of 'mechanical switches' called the 'stainless steel domes':

Image
http://rebrn.com/re/apples-next-macbook ... nl-242149/

User avatar
Ratfink

17 Nov 2016, 18:12

Good God, a living hinge? I bet that's rated at just enough keystrokes to last you until the next Macbook is released. :lol:

User avatar
alh84001
v.001

17 Nov 2016, 18:16

They are quite louder than the previous switches they had. I don't know anything about the feel.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

17 Nov 2016, 20:40

I'm guessing the increase in sound is to account for the decrease in key travel. Also, the design allows for lower profile keyboards and thinner laptops, as we have discussed before.

Findecanor

17 Nov 2016, 20:50

They are already in the wiki (of course).
The key travel is very low. They made some tiny changes for the 2016 MacBook "Pro" compared to last year's MacBook with only one USB port. It has been confirmed that the MacBook keys had double-shot moulded scissor switches, with rubber in the hinge and rigid plastic for the frame.

Metal domes are nothing new. I have got a few 1970's TI calculators with them.

jacobolus

17 Nov 2016, 21:30

Reportedly the new Macbook Pro keyboards are noticeably different than the ones in the 12" Macbook, and feel better. (I haven’t tried them, so that’s second-hand.)

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