A new laptop

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

15 Dec 2016, 13:00

So as much as I'd love a lenovo, I'm leaning toward a new dell XPS 13" (to replace my macbook air).

With €1600 I can get a
- Intel i7-7500U
- 3.200x1.800 display
- 16GB ram
- 512 GB SSD
- Ubuntu OS (this is a huge plus)
- US keyboard (this is another big plus for me)

What I don't like is the glossy touch screen, but I guess you can't have everything.

Any other suggestion? I don't want to go bigger than 13-14", when I'm at home/office I have my desktop, so the laptop doesn't need to be overpowered.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

15 Dec 2016, 14:23

What is keeping you from looking at a Lenovo?

I've been casually looking at laptops as well. The website I like to visit the most is ultrabookreview.com. Sometimes they track common problems with the more popular laptops, while most review sites give an initial impression and leave it there.

Some other new Windows laptops that have interested me are the new HP Spectre x360 with Kaby Lake processors, Microsoft Surface (Pro 4 and Book), and that's about it. Admittedly, I've been focused on the 2 in 1 laptops.

I've also taken a long look at the business-oriented models from Dell, HP, and Lenovo, as those generally are more durable, easier to upgrade, and look pretty good these days. Business models tend to lack USB-C and the best screens, but not always. Personally, I would buy the business models lightly used or refurbished.

Asus and Acer offer the best value, but from personal experience and observation, these brands do not seem to hold up well in the long run.

For laptops that come with Linux, the choices are very thin, with basically only Dell and System76 selling non-gaming laptops with Linux pre-installed. Obviously, you can try to install Linux on whatever you want, but at least the manufacturer has verified that Linux works everything on the laptop when it is pre-installed.

I'm not sure what you plan to use the laptop for, but I've found touch screens on laptops that don't convert to tablets to be an an unnecessary feature. Reaching for the touchscreen over the keyboard does not produce a smooth workflow and you most likely will use the touchpad for navigation and rarely use the touch screen.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

15 Dec 2016, 15:53

Ordered an XPS 15 earlier this week with the 3840 x 2160 screen and the Intel i7. Got an 13" laptop now but that's just a little bit too small for me. Also looked at the Precision 5510 (the XPS business edition), but the XPS was good enough for me.

This will decrease taxable profit! :twisted:

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

15 Dec 2016, 16:03

basically to have features close to the XPS, lenovo costs €2500. Now, I bet the quality is better but one has to find a nice compromise.

I bought a convertible from HP not long ago and it's the worst engineered PC I've ever had in my life. Of all the defects the worst is the very poor cooling, basically after a while the pc turns off without warning. I contacted HP that replaced the tablet/laptop (downgrading it from i7 to i5 without even a partial refund) and the new unit had the same issue. So, many years will pass before I buy another HP :D

Linux is not a requirement, but knowing that the laptop won't have any issue with linux is a big advantage.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

15 Dec 2016, 16:05

Lenovo was out for me because of the spyware.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

15 Dec 2016, 16:08

17" desktop replacements are my thing. :evilgeek:

Budget Dell can be chintzy, but it's functional. HP products either last forever or suck immediately. Lenovo makes solid products for the most part.

Didn't they get rid of the spyware?

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

15 Dec 2016, 16:24

I've heard that HP laptops are lacking in the quality control. I've seen it first hand with their business models in a work environment side by side with Thinkpads. The Thinkpads hold up better. Until recently, most HP laptops were just plain ugly as well.

A place to get a good deal on Lenovos in the Lenovo Outlet. Great deals on there. But the spyware debacle, yea, that's worrisome. As I understand it the spyware was only in the consumer line models, not the Thinkpad models. I could be wrong. But the whole ethics of that situation is absolute shit and causes me to be wary about buying the products.

I also looked at the Dell XPS 15 and the Precision 5510. Nice machine with quad core processor, great display, compact size for 15", and fully upgradeable internals with dual drive slots. Although compared to the XPS 13, a bunch of issues have been reported, some software and some hardware related. But like most reviews, those will problems scream louder than the people with good machines.

Canonical keeps a list of Ubuntu certified hardware. Seems like a bit of a marketing ploy, but the list is useful for easy reference on Ubuntu compatibility: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

22 Dec 2016, 01:51

So did you decide on anything? I thought Deskthoritarians would have more input on this subject.

My Thinkpad Yoga 260 arrived today (after some delivery drama, of course). While lacking in a few expected areas, impressive device overall. Laptops have come a long way. Windows 10 is pretty annoying, though, I'll be slapping a Linux distro on this thing as soon as possible.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

22 Dec 2016, 09:28

I've got distracted by other things and couldn't put my head on this yet. I will very likely get an XPS with ubuntu. It seems the best deal.

The yoga seems a very nice machine indeed but to get it with 16gb they take one month and with the holidays around the corner I'm expecting an end of January delivery! Apart from that, looks pretty sturdy. The X260 is also pretty decent.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

22 Dec 2016, 19:52

Funny, I tend to get obsessed with one thing and forget about everything else.

As a pure small laptop for Linux, the Dell XPS is tough to beat, it has the reputation, and official Dell support.

I'm impressed with the Yoga so far. The RAM is upgradeable, so no need to buy 16GB up front, but I'm not sure if there is a whitelist for RAM. My only gripe is the screen is average and the speakers are a little weak, but that comes with the territory of the Thinkpad line, weather is it necessary or not.

face

22 Dec 2016, 20:07

Wait for the newest XPS 13 release at least. They have still problems with coil whine as it seems! I would be very annoyed by this. They said they would handle it till the end of the year with a new motherboard revision... but time will tell.

I am waiting for CES 2017 (3-4 weeks?) until some new laptops are revealed. Presumably also the new Thinkpads X1 Carbon and T470s.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

22 Dec 2016, 20:19

face wrote: Wait for the newest XPS 13 release at least. They have still problems with coil whine as it seems! I would be very annoyed by this. They said they would handle it till the end of the year with a new motherboard revision... but time will tell.
how one does know if the mobo has been updated?

I'm not in a huge hurry, so maybe I could wait few weeks, but usually new products are not available until late Q1 and I can't wait that long :)

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

22 Dec 2016, 21:28

Ah, the infamous XPS coil whine issue. I've heard so much about it, but I've never heard it in person, I would have to check out some YouTube videos. I think it depends on how much the noise bothers you personally.

CES is only two weeks away. I thought about waiting until CES, but much of the stuff revealed at CES oftentimes is not available for at least a couple months after the show. Then you don't know if the device is Linux friendly until enough people get their hands on it and test it out. Personally, I decided to go with Skylake generation because those devices have been out there long enough that all the kinks and functionality are well known.

User avatar
chuckdee

22 Dec 2016, 23:29

face wrote: Wait for the newest XPS 13 release at least. They have still problems with coil whine as it seems! I would be very annoyed by this. They said they would handle it till the end of the year with a new motherboard revision... but time will tell.

I am waiting for CES 2017 (3-4 weeks?) until some new laptops are revealed. Presumably also the new Thinkpads X1 Carbon and T470s.
Coil whine? I have an XPS 13 that I've had for about a year, and I've never heard of such.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

23 Dec 2016, 00:05

okay I made some research on the coil whine. it is dated back to 2014 and still 2016 models have the same issue. this is pretty ridiculous, in 3 XPS generations (and who knows how many revisions) they've not been able to fix it. I might actually reconsider a lenovo, but I have to check the bios/linux situation.

User avatar
micrex22

23 Dec 2016, 02:37

matt3o wrote: okay I made some research on the coil whine. it is dated back to 2014 and still 2016 models have the same issue. this is pretty ridiculous, in 3 XPS generations (and who knows how many revisions) they've not been able to fix it. I might actually reconsider a lenovo, but I have to check the bios/linux situation.
I've dealt with a lot of X1 Carbons for clients, they have a fair bit of problems. Lenovo sometimes waited on *months* before having any spare replacement parts in stock since so many were failing on a massive scale. And sometimes when they "repaired" the systems they started failing again right after.

It's gotten better now but I (personally) couldn't recommend one. If you're going for a Lenovo, ensure you get a good warranty on the system so that it matches how long you're going to use it. And always have a backup system to compensate for any down time if it has to go back to Lenovo for repair.

matt3o wrote: I bought a convertible from HP not long ago and it's the worst engineered PC I've ever had in my life.
:lol:
HP's peecee business was always marching to the graveyard, with the split of HP and HPE it makes it more adamant. And now HP has even bought SGI to focus more on mainframes:
http://fortune.com/2016/08/11/hewlett-p ... rcomputer/

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Muirium
µ

23 Dec 2016, 03:39

Microsoft's trying more than most these days. I'm sure the Linux support on a Surface will be second to none.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

23 Dec 2016, 04:41

There are going to be pros and cons with every laptop manufacturer these days, it is unavoidable. Macs are expensive, but they are known to be reliable and to hold their value. The Dell XPS coil whine is hit or miss. HP quality has been poor in the past, but they have been innovating well lately. Lenovo Thinkpads have the tradition and build quality, but recent reliability is less than expected.

What I have learned is get a decent warranty and you should be fine. They all have their good units and bad units, and some have more good units than bad units. Keep a reliable backup around, just in case you have to send your main laptop back to the repair center. I usually buy refurbished from the manufacturer because the lower price gives me less anxiety about throwing my money at a depreciating asset. I also assume that any issues have been checked and repaired with certified refurbished machines.

And if you are worried about Lenovo on Linux, I think they strive to make the Thinkpad line compatible with Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Laptop/Lenovo

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

23 Dec 2016, 08:15

vivalarevolución wrote: And if you are worried about Lenovo on Linux, I think they strive to make the Thinkpad line compatible with Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Laptop/Lenovo
I remember not long ago lenovo made an update to the bios so that you could access the SSD only through a propriatory driver, effectively removing linux from the picture. Admittedly they fixed the issue not long after the internet dropped on them because of that.

I totally understand that each laptop of any brand has its fair share of issues, but I find "fascinating" that after 3 major releases the dell xps has still coil whine. Oh, and macs have issues too.

Regarding HP, I bought a business level machine, paid premium for it and it is basically a door holder.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

23 Dec 2016, 08:49

matt3o wrote: Oh, and macs have issues too.
You bet they do. The desktops never even got spec bumped this year. It's bad. What are they doing over there? Can't keep their eyes off the political shitstorm? Get back to work damnit!

andrewjoy

23 Dec 2016, 11:09

We are at the point now where building a hackintosh is the only option to get a decent mac.

The clones are better than the original, where have i seen that before?

User avatar
lancre

23 Dec 2016, 11:32

matt3o wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: And if you are worried about Lenovo on Linux, I think they strive to make the Thinkpad line compatible with Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Laptop/Lenovo
I remember not long ago lenovo made an update to the bios so that you could access the SSD only through a propriatory driver, effectively removing linux from the picture. Admittedly they fixed the issue not long after the internet dropped on them because of that.

I totally understand that each laptop of any brand has its fair share of issues, but I find "fascinating" that after 3 major releases the dell xps has still coil whine. Oh, and macs have issues too.

Regarding HP, I bought a business level machine, paid premium for it and it is basically a door holder.
Interesting fact: Richard Stallman uses a ThinkPad. A really old one.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

23 Dec 2016, 12:20

Richard Stallman also peels and eats dead skin from his feet in public.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

23 Dec 2016, 12:45

lancre wrote: Interesting fact: Richard Stallman uses a ThinkPad. A really old one.
there are a couple of old lenovo models where you can actually install an open source bios, making the PC a real open/free platform (with some exceptions). I believe Stallman has one of those.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

23 Dec 2016, 13:59

I believe we are talking about libreboot: https://libreboot.org. They sell some old Lenovos with the open source BIOS. I might get one of these and throw the BIOS on it, just to keep around as a cheap backup.

Of course, being a part of the open source world, Libreboot has its own set of drama.

I read an interview with Stallman and still used an IBM Thinkpad, but who knows now. Stallman is a character, I'll leave it at that.

I heard about some Linux on Lenovo issue with the consumer Yoga line, but didn't hear anything about the Thinkpad line. I haven't researched it thoroughly.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

23 Dec 2016, 15:14

ohaimark wrote: Richard Stallman also peels and eats dead skin from his feet in public.
And you don't?

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

23 Dec 2016, 15:16

vivalarevolución wrote:
ohaimark wrote: Richard Stallman also peels and eats dead skin from his feet in public.
And you don't?
A friend of mine does the same, but we love him anyway.

face

29 Dec 2016, 22:01

There is a new X1 Carbon coming in at CES 2017. Leaked a few days ago. Seems to offer some pretty interesting features, like Thunderbolt 3 and narrow bezels around the screen...

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

30 Dec 2016, 09:57

just for completeness, these are the leaked specs https://benchlife.info/lenovo-thinkpad- ... -12122016/

14" WQHD display (with touch option)
2x thunderbolt 3
IR Camera option (!?!?!?!?)
7th gen intel
LTE option
15.5 hours battery life (!!!!)
lighter/smaller

It's a really beautiful machine, but the X1 has always been plagued by all kind of issues... honestly the yoga 910 has very similar specs and costs less... I'll wait for CES anyway.

HuBandiT

30 Dec 2016, 10:59

Any 16:10 screens in sight? I'm still on W500 because of that...

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