Chinese users of Deskthority!

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chzel

24 Apr 2018, 16:04

Agreed, but I'd hope at least for some kind of dialogue. Even from the beginning he's been avoiding it like the plague...

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green-squid

24 Apr 2018, 21:50

Getting back on track, any people from Hong Kong or Taiwan? I would love to know about them too!

Hong Kong is a very curious country - one country two systems, everything is very densely packed, apartment costs are high, space is scarce and expensive, and many other things. But the fact that it's so dense is also fascinating!
I especially find the (now demolished) Kowloon Walled City fascinating. I did some digging, and also found a documentary on it! Very cool, but dense as hell, and not how HK ever looked like, of course.

As for Taiwan, I'm not too familiar with it, besides the fact that there are big differences compared to China.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

24 Apr 2018, 21:55

Our own user terrycherry is from HK I believe, he has not Bern around lately.

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Blaise170
ALPS キーボード

24 Apr 2018, 22:14

Technically Hong Kong isn't a country.

Menuhin

24 Apr 2018, 23:45

Mr.Nobody wrote: Censorship to a certain extent is okay and necessary, that's why all governments have it. If censorship is completely removed, believe me, you will miss it. As for to what extent is okay, well it varies from place to place, this goes back to the "beef and coffee" analogy. Asians are more tolerant on this matter, the cultural factors ARE relevant here, get it?
When Mr.Nobody joins in, this thread has (possibly derailed and) grown exponentially. :lol:

It's an intriguing statement from Mr.Nobody:
"Censorship to a certain extent is okay and necessary, that's why all governments have it."

I am genuinely intrigued about the (possible logical? at least for your logic) thinking behind the statement - and I see it as a potential anthopologial topic, but with a super controversial statement.
Can you provide a concrete example to support this statement? (given "okay" versus "not okay" is very subjective and depends on how one sets a threshold, you can focus on the "necessary" part)
Let's say, theoretically, for a tribe with less than 100 population, and its a minimal tribal governing body? In 2 scenarios - 1) with written language and 2) without written language within such a tribe?

If you can convince me with a concrete thought experiment / imaginary example, you can potentially use it as a draft for a controversial best selling book.
But providing such a convincing example to support that statement of yours, should be very difficult, if not entirely impossible.

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Mr.Nobody

25 Apr 2018, 03:39

If you want to believe there's a country called China and its government is evil and it does all kinds of shit, and Chinese people have nothing but misery, then go ahead. There is no point providing other versions of stories to someone who believes so firmly that the version he's heard must be true.

Bottom line, you don't have absolute freedom of any kind regardless where you are who you are, freedom is an idea, a concept for guiding us to shape our reality and make it progressively better, so stop indulging yourselves with the illusion that you've already had it. If you can pretend you've already had it, then why don't you just pretend you and only you are living in heaven others are living in hell.

I clicked in to respond to OP's friendly questions because I AM a Chinese user of the DT and I know what's actually going on in China which may be quite different from some people's conception. I think I've told what's necessary to make things clear enough. I appreciate the posts that provided concrete food for thought. For those who get personal and have been trying to pin me down for almost a year and a half but failed, well, boys, don't give up:lol:

@Menuhin
You want examples, just google "banned by the government", I'm sure you'll get plenty of them. It's not uncommon that Books, video games, films that are okay in one country may not be okay in another, it's safe to say although different countries adopt different criteria for censorship, they all have it and most of the time for good reasons.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

25 Apr 2018, 13:31

I already said that no country is completely free. At least we pursuit that freedom, you said that what your government says it's freedom it's okay for you. Which is alarming considering all that is happening in China (and in so many other countries). https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/c ... -and-tibet

Menuhin

25 Apr 2018, 15:24

As matt3o chips in again, my effort to steer this into a heartful discussion continues.

@Mr.Nobody
I understand what you are saying about "they (different countries) all have it (censorship)". A few centuries ago, Mercury was once used as a medicine across the globe in many cultures to cure various (or almost any) diseases - does it support that Mercury is an effective medicine for that many diseases? I hope you see parallel in the Mercury example and your statement.

Citing examples does not support the statement "censorship ... is ... necessary" to justify any (in your case "all") government to practise it.
The key word is "necessary", which means essential and needed, and implies that there is no alternative / alternative means to the subject matter, e.g. in order to achieve an end.
e.g. Bill lied that he did not cheat behind his wifes back.
Is his lies necessary?
Alternatives:
1. Tell the truth and ask for forgiveness;
2. Get a divorce;
3. If Bill lies repeatedly, Bill can actually quit cheating with other women, or paying for sex;
4. etc.
Banned books and films very likely indicates that the governments have something to hide, instead of engaging people in open, logical and scientific discussion and investigations. But if you say these bans "are necessary", you are implying that all people when they are in the governing position, must have something bad / controversial to hide which may lead to them being taken over. I do not think that is the case, and you have to provide details to support and justify such a case.
You may argue that over the course of 10 or 20 or more years, the probabilities of people in the governing body having done something shady would have sky-rocketed - yes, and that is not ideal. And when something happens, that can well be the time to clear those bad apples, with a system that support such an action be done.
Just like the car safety standards - no car is perfectly safe;
No one lives in an ideal world, but it is important to make sure what the people should be going after.
matt3o wrote:
chzel wrote: God...I missed almost all of you guys, but not Mr.Nobody...Definitely not Mr.Nobody...
Can we please exchange him and get Mu back? I can throw some keyboards into the deal if need be...
I wonder why you keep replying to such threads...
listening and understanding his view is as important as the freedom we are trying to protect. "Freedom" is a huge word anyway, because nobody in any country is really free and probably the illusion of freedom is even more dangerous. People don't really care about it as long as their bellies are full and the smartphone has 4 bar.
I want to see Mu back too by the way.
Although I believe not everyone in China has their bellies full, it seems to me that shiny smartphone and gadgets and cars and infrastructures that support the usage of technologies and abundance of food are the exact equivalence of "Modern and Advance" in most people mind in China. What are the many things and qualities that can be missing and are also very important here?
...that being said, I don't understand how kidnapping a 6 year old boy and his family can be justified. because that's what China did to Gedhun Choekyi Nyima (the elected Panchen Lama). They went as far as replacing him with a China approved boy called Gyaincain Norbu, effectively taking control over the succession of the Dalai Lama...
When I was a brat, I did a road trip across Tibet from Tibet's southwest to northeast, wearing a "Free Tibet" T-shirt, and showed the photo of Dalai Lama to the kids and the locals and in return, they behaved as if I could bless them.

Later, I am able to see the tragedy of Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, the people in PRC (in terms of their freedom e.g. religion or speech), and the CCP in a slightly different light.

Dalai and Panchen are basically like the Pope and the Patriarch of Moscow in that huge Himalayan plateau, but closely collaborating. CCP is aware of the fact that historically religion is a powerful way to control and influence people, while the majority of people do not see religions in such a way; regardless of CCP's awareness of the power of religions, what CCP has towards religions is just fear and blunt strategies, such as destruction, such as forcing the old Panchen Lama to marry a woman, etc., nothing like the sophistication of infiltration and counter-control. If the Brits rule an area like that, I bet their strategy would be to treat the two Lamas like gems in order to let the two Lamas help them gain real control; now CCP controlled the land of Tibet, which is theoretically an autonomous region, but not the heart of the people there.

Infiltration and counter-control might have already existed as a strategy to deal with Christianity in early Roman Empire. Simon bar Giora got crucified after the first First Jewish-Roman War, and eventually there is the shaping and the rise of Christianity with a lot of Judaism and ancient Egypt elements in it. The religion was banned by the Roman Empire but became so widely spread and became uncontrollable. Constantine The Great eventually made a drastic step to convert himself to Christianity. Historians thought the main reason for his conversion to Christianity had been his desire to bring unity to the Roman world and to do it by having only one religion, closely subordinated to and controlled by the state.

A friend of mine recommended this book to me called "Wolf Totem"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1217728.Wolf_Totem
Which is a novel, and basically implies that the core of Chinese culture (is already so far from and thus) totally lack the wisdom of the nomadic culture, for example the mongols.

CCP, perhaps in such a culture, has never really learnt how to lure and lead sheep to here and there and make use of them. They just have the skills equivalent to keeping the obedient tamed farm animals or the skills to tame the disobeying or to exterminate the untamables.
According to the author's implication, from such as farming culture, people, including the governing body such as the CCP, lacks the skills and wisdoms of nomads and hunters - to lure, to trap, to catch, to lead, to see and make use of group dynamics.

Perhaps such mindset can be reflected by the world map of lactose intolerance - but I cannot explain by the Mongols are labelled as lactose intolerant.

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Mr.Nobody

26 Apr 2018, 10:58

@Menuhin

Say Bill has a teenage son, who is rather inertested in porn and drugs due to lacking of life experience and knowledge, shoudn't Bill do something to prevent his son from accessing the harmful stuff and ruining himself? But from the son's perspective,Bill is imposing censorship and abusing authoritarian power...

Have you ever wondered why the government only gives you fake democracy, nominal freedom and a sugar-coated censorship(In the case of China, they dont' even sugar-coat it), why doesn't the government give us the real thing, why we have a bunch of liars and control freaks run the country for us? Well if you let me say, we shouldn't overate people; neither should we underate the governments. If you observe human beings closely, tell me what kind beings humans really are? I think it's safe to say they are inherently flawed and far from perfect, so to say the scientific logical open discussion is based on the assumption that most people are good and smart enough to do the right thing, but are they?

Maybe one day in the future, we can have real democracy and zero censorship, by then the ideal people may be living in an blissful ideal world; but for the time being, for anyone to run a country in practice, some means are still necessary, and I still believe, in most of the cases, the governments are propelled by righteous motivation.

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Mr.Nobody

26 Apr 2018, 12:13

Part 2(@Menuhin your post is a little long, here is the reply to the second part of its content)


Kashmire conflict and Isreal vs. Palestine drama demonstrate perfectly how the British "helped" two parties to get along with each other. When the UK. lost its colonies, it always left something for the locals to fight against each other for the coming decades, really sinister and despicable.

With all due respect, I think "Wolf Totem" seems to promote a theory of how to put the cart before the horse,or how a tail should wag a dog. History teaches us that agricultural civilization is an advanced form of civiliaztion comparing with nomadic tribes, people need to settle down first, so they can build towns and cities and develop art and gradually an entire civilization starts to form. Only after they've mastered the skills of taming animals and farming land, getting sufficient food and settling down becomes possible, that's how ancient Egypt, China, India and Europe have built their civilizations, on other hand, nomadic tribes like Mongol were just a bunch of babarians, they looted from place to place burning down everything built nothing left nothing eventually completely lost in oblivion. China is the only continuing civilization, isn't it another version of Roman empire that still survive today, it had its ups and downs along the way, however it keeps its language and large amount of land intact, if this can't prove its unique wisdom, then what can? India may have equally large land and long history but they don't have unified language and national identity, most European governments can't even manage to reign a country bigger than a modest Chinese province with a population of a couple of millions. Well, let me put it this way, It's really hard for a yacht captain to understand what involves to steer an aricraft carrier.

EDIT:
It's interesting to see when Chinese government couldn't feed its people, western people got outraged and condemned it; but when Dalai lama failed to feed Tibetan people, Western people sympathized with him.

It's also interesting to see how western media condemn China for air and water pollution, and completely forget about the the infamous London fog and how polluted the air and water used to be when the Western world was in the stage of industralization.

Before pointing your fingers at China, maybe it's not a bad idea to check your own governments with the identical criteria and standards.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

26 Apr 2018, 12:54

Mr.Nobody wrote: It's also interesting to see how western media condemn China for air and water pollution, and completely forget about the the infamous London fog and how polluted the air and water used to be when the Western world was in the stage of industralization.

Before pointing your fingers at China, maybe it's not a bad idea to check your own governments with the identical criteria and standards.
two wrongs still don't make one right. you didn't get the memo, probably it was censored.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

26 Apr 2018, 13:55

Mr.Nobody wrote: […] Say Bill has a teenage son, who is rather inertested in porn and drugs due to lacking of life experience and knowledge, shoudn't Bill do something to prevent his son from accessing the harmful stuff and ruining himself? But from the son's perspective,Bill is imposing censorship and abusing authoritarian power... […]
Oh, so if Bill’s intention is simply to prevent his "teenage son" "from accessing the harmful stuff and ruining himself",
he will of course forcefully bar him from accessing alcoholic beverages.
If not, we can certainly hold Bill for a damn hypocrite, can’t we? :lol:

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Laser
emacs -nw

26 Apr 2018, 14:31

The Bill comparison clearly makes the State a father, which it isn't. Or, in another words, all population is supposed to be at an infantile level.

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Mr.Nobody

26 Apr 2018, 15:32

John is Bill's neighbor who also has a son. One day John had a conversation with Bill.

John: "Hey Bill, I know you've been working hard to provide your son a decent life, but your son needs more freedom. Don't be too harsh on him, I'm a father, my son has more freedom, it's okay."

Bill: "John, here the situation is a little bit different. Your son is 40 years old, mine is only 16, if I spoil him now, he might won't have a chance to grow up to 40 and make anything out of himself; by the way, your son does drugs, he can't afford his own apartment, he drives a used car and can barely afford the gas, he's divorced and stays at your home watching porn and playing video games all day long, yet, he believes he has the freedom...to be honest, I don't want my son to be a loser like yours."

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Laser
emacs -nw

26 Apr 2018, 15:43

An absolutist State will always treat its people like a Father (of the People), i.e. will *forever* keep them at infantile levels, since it has the most to gain because - it's simple - it can then take *all* decisions for them. North Koreans, crying for their dead dictator. Mass psychosis. Socialism vs capitalism (at their worst): psychosis vs perversion.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

26 Apr 2018, 15:52

this is touching new record lows

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chzel

26 Apr 2018, 16:23

So Mr.Nobody, what if Bill decides that food is as bad as porn for his son and decides to stop giving him food "for his own good"? And his son tries to argue "But dad, I'm hungry" but Bill slaps him on the mouth "Shut up son, only I know what's good for you!".
Should Bill's son revolt eventually, or should he accept his father's authority and wither and starve to death?
Is that acceptable "parenting"?
Should an outsider (let's say child services) intervene?
Should we grab the popcorn and watch Bill's son die?

Let's turn this more personal. What if your government decide YOU are unwanted and let you starve. Should we care or should we ignore you?

I don't expect a sincere answer, really. But for your own sake, think about it.
Don't just recycle the propaganda they have filled your head with...

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

26 Apr 2018, 16:47

Mr.Nobody wrote: John is Bill's neighbor who also has a son. One day John had a conversation with Bill.

John: "Hey Bill, I know you've been working hard to provide your son a decent life, but your son needs more freedom. Don't be too harsh on him, I'm a father, my son has more freedom, it's okay."

Bill: "John, here the situation is a little bit different. Your son is 40 years old, mine is only 16, if I spoil him now, he might won't have a chance to grow up to 40 and make anything out of himself; by the way, your son does drugs, he can't afford his own apartment, he drives a used car and can barely afford the gas, he's divorced and stays at your home watching porn and playing video games all day long, yet, he believes he has the freedom...to be honest, I don't want my son to be a loser like yours."
Mkie is another neighbour of Bill and also has a son. One day Mike had a conversation with Bill.

Mike: "Hey Bill, I know you've been working hard to provide your son a decent life, but your son needs more freedom. Don't be too harsh on him, I'm a father, my son has more freedom, it's okay."

Bill: "Mike, you’re right. Your son is 40 years old, and so is mine, even if I treat him like a 16 years old kid because I did not let him grow up as an adult, even arguing with porn and drugs when my real aim was to not let him read about how other kids grew up and not let him say what he thought. I even smashed him in the face when he dared contradict me. Now he doesn’t respect me, doesn’t love me, doesn’t trust me, but at least he fears me. I’m still the boss, and that’s all I want!"

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AMongoose

26 Apr 2018, 17:07

So the spanish government should be overthrown for not letting catalunha be independent after the referendum?
England for a ton of censorship and ridiculous laws for getting table cutlery?
My country for not letting me say our flag is the ugliest turd of a flag?

What strikes me as most strange in this thread is the distinction between a country's government and it's people.
This is an artificial distinction, the government is part of the people, if a large enough part of the people didn't like it they would overthrown it.
Also laws don't take freedom away from people, they just put consequences in place if you're caught (see above for my illegal comment about my flag that did not put me in jail).

Does it suck for the minorities?
Yes, they should probably get out of there.

Does it make it a bad country to live in for the vast majority?
No.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

26 Apr 2018, 17:33

first. are we really comparing the right to be informed to assuming drugs?

second. it is worse in X! look what they do in Y! is not an excuse. two wrongs don't make one right.

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AMongoose

26 Apr 2018, 18:09

Being part of a state always meant you gave up some freedom to gain security.
Saying all censorship is bad regardless of what is being censored and what are the penalties doesn't make much sense, there is always a compromise.

I'm okay with fining a journal if they print information about ongoing police investigations.
I'm not okay with torturing people for distributing books with certain political ideas.

And in any of those cases the everyday life of most people can be pretty good regardless.

And censorship doesn't negate any right that could exist to be informed. Shutting one person's mouth is not equivalent to take the ears of everyone.

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Mr.Nobody

28 Apr 2018, 01:09

chzel wrote: So Mr.Nobody, what if Bill decides that food is as bad as porn for his son and decides to stop giving him food "for his own good"? And his son tries to argue "But dad, I'm hungry" but Bill slaps him on the mouth "Shut up son, only I know what's good for you!".
Should Bill's son revolt eventually, or should he accept his father's authority and wither and starve to death?
Is that acceptable "parenting"?
Should an outsider (let's say child services) intervene?
Should we grab the popcorn and watch Bill's son die?

Let's turn this more personal. What if your government decide YOU are unwanted and let you starve. Should we care or should we ignore you?

I don't expect a sincere answer, really. But for your own sake, think about it.
Don't just recycle the propaganda they have filled your head with...
Will a normal father want to starve his son, this hypothetical scenario is too far from reality, even a slave owner won't starve his slaves for no reason, what's point ruinning your own properties? Do you presume all governments are "Evil Fathers" or you only presume the Chinese govenment is an evil father?

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Mr.Nobody

28 Apr 2018, 01:19

kbdfr wrote:
Mr.Nobody wrote: John is Bill's neighbor who also has a son. One day John had a conversation with Bill.

John: "Hey Bill, I know you've been working hard to provide your son a decent life, but your son needs more freedom. Don't be too harsh on him, I'm a father, my son has more freedom, it's okay."

Bill: "John, here the situation is a little bit different. Your son is 40 years old, mine is only 16, if I spoil him now, he might won't have a chance to grow up to 40 and make anything out of himself; by the way, your son does drugs, he can't afford his own apartment, he drives a used car and can barely afford the gas, he's divorced and stays at your home watching porn and playing video games all day long, yet, he believes he has the freedom...to be honest, I don't want my son to be a loser like yours."
Mkie is another neighbour of Bill and also has a son. One day Mike had a conversation with Bill.

Mike: "Hey Bill, I know you've been working hard to provide your son a decent life, but your son needs more freedom. Don't be too harsh on him, I'm a father, my son has more freedom, it's okay."

Bill: "Mike, you’re right. Your son is 40 years old, and so is mine, even if I treat him like a 16 years old kid because I did not let him grow up as an adult, even arguing with porn and drugs when my real aim was to not let him read about how other kids grew up and not let him say what he thought. I even smashed him in the face when he dared contradict me. Now he doesn’t respect me, doesn’t love me, doesn’t trust me, but at least he fears me. I’m still the boss, and that’s all I want!"
That sounds more like what Mike tells his own son.

Mike: Dear son, I love you, don't be discontent with me, do you know Bill's son has no food no freedom and gets beaten up, you should feel grateful being my son not Bill's. Why you are always so unhappy, do you know how much I have to pay for your therapy ? Business has gone bad, most custumers go to Bill's shop, we can't afford living the way like before.

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chzel

28 Apr 2018, 01:34

Mr.Nobody wrote: Will a normal father want to starve his son, this hypothetical scenario is too far from reality, even a slave owner won't starve his slaves for no reason, what's point ruinning your own properties? Do you presume all governments are "Evil Fathers" or you only presume the Chinese govenment is an evil father?
Regardless whether it is now, they can turn into an "evil father" anytime they choose and most of the "children" will be totally oblivious...

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Mr.Nobody

28 Apr 2018, 01:38

Two wrongs won't make one right, but it's ridiculous for one wrong party to point his finger at the other one to make his own fault look less terrible.

When Western people knew Koreans eat dogs, they got shocked. What? Korean people eat humans' best friends, their own pets? How babarous... But do you know it's equally shocking for Hindus to know that Western people eat beef because cows are holy in Hindusim, yes everyday you guys are slaughtering and consuming something that almost 1 billion people regard as holy. Is it okay if Hindus call you guys barbarians just because there is a piece of beef in your lunch?

It's dangerous to judge others out of context in a world of diverse cultures and peoples. Somehow, Western people sometimes have an illusion, they think this is their world, we(Asians Afrians etc.) are just living in it, and we should comply with their criteria.
Last edited by Mr.Nobody on 28 Apr 2018, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.

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chzel

28 Apr 2018, 01:41

Since you deflect by mentioning dogs, what about Chinese and dog eating? Any comment there?

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Mr.Nobody

28 Apr 2018, 01:54

chzel wrote:
Mr.Nobody wrote: Will a normal father want to starve his son, this hypothetical scenario is too far from reality, even a slave owner won't starve his slaves for no reason, what's point ruinning your own properties? Do you presume all governments are "Evil Fathers" or you only presume the Chinese govenment is an evil father?
Regardless whether it is now, they can turn into an "evil father" anytime they choose and most of the "children" will be totally oblivious...
When the father turns into an evil one, the son will revolt, that's when revolution breaks out. French did it, Chinese did it, Africans are doing it. But when the father and son relationship isn't that bad, the father might be a little conservative and stern, is it right for neighbors to intervene/interfere? "Hey boy, you really should kill your father because he doesn't allow you to play PS4 and assigned too much mathematics for you to learn."
chzel wrote: Since you deflect by mentioning dogs, what about Chinese and dog eating? Any comment there?
The nation is comprised of 56 ethnic groups, one of them is Chinese Koreans, they follow their Korean customs, they eat dogs. China is also a big country, some southern Chinese provinces border on South Asian countries share common food menu with their neighbors, they eat not only dogs, they also eat all kinds of strange stuff, worms, bugs...you get the picture, but the majority of the Chinese population don't accept dogs or worms as food at all,we eat pork primarily, but eating pork could also be a felony in the eyes of vegans.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

28 Apr 2018, 08:14

you seem to suffer of some serious persecution complex. I'm totally aware of the wrongs of our countries and we fight to make them right. you are totally fine with whatever they throw at you and completely ignores what is really happening. that is wrong not for china but for any country. but don't worry, others' will fight for you too.

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Mr.Nobody

28 Apr 2018, 08:51

@matt3o
Good to know you want to fight and make things right, you can start from your own countries, I know in many European countries, prostitution is legal, which makes trafficking women from Eastern Europe and turning them into sex slaves literally a business. Try to defend those women's human rights so they don't have to sell their bodies to make a few bucks in the alleys only a few yards from your grand cathedrals, which is embarrassingly ironic in countries claim to have the most civilized and equal societies.

I don't suffer from inferiority complex, I'm just tired of seeing my country being constantly judged with ubiquitous double-standards. At first, I thought it was because of some kind of misunderstanding. Then I found out that some people are playing a game called "Chinese can never be right" and it goes like this:

If most Chinese drive to work like Americans do, it's because they are selfish, they have zero regards to air pollution.
If most Chinese ride bikes like Dutches do, it's because they can't afford cars.
If most Chinese drink bottled water, it's because tap water in China is not safe for drinking.
If most Chinese drink tap water, it's because they can't afford bottled water.
...
That's exactly what Serpentza and Laowhy86 and other China-slandering channels do. Satisfaction is guaranteed.

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Laser
emacs -nw

28 Apr 2018, 10:02

Nobody has nothing against Chinese people, or the country. It's the form of government that's disputed, and its long-term effect on its people. People are actually trying to help you see things differently. But the "resistance" you display shows that maybe seeing things differently would be quite destabilizing for you.

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