Unpopular opinions thread

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

04 Sep 2019, 08:19

SneakyRobb wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 20:34
kbdfr wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 19:55
[…] My point was that IBMs are prone to self-destruction, and that it’s precisely why DT members love them.
Because they can prove (or exercise, as may be the case) their skills.

Not their keyboard skills, by the way.
That would essentially be… typing. […]
[…] What matter is it if the foam gets "disgusting" oh no. […] God forbid I have to spend 30 minutes cutting a piece of $1 foam from Michaels. The horror, the horror.
[…]
People like to do work to build/restore things and then have a sense of satisfaction about it. This is called being a human. So what if they want to prove their skills. They did a thing that was fun and they can be proud of. That is good.
[…]
IBM keyboards are great for this because they are with a few minor tools, a bit of elbow grease, a bit of thinking and some weekend time, are a great object to repair that isn't overly difficult or super easy. […]
Thank you for enforcing my point in your attempt to disprove it :mrgreen:

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Muirium
µ

04 Sep 2019, 09:20

All good “beliefs” are unfalsifiable, after all. Ours, and yours!

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CountNoctua

04 Sep 2019, 09:26

Indeed.

You also see similar arguments on both sides in other arenas, as well, such as classic cars. Or the larger vintage vs modern keyboard argument, for that matter.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

04 Sep 2019, 14:45

Oh, and by the way:
SneakyRobb wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 20:34
[…] Do you shy from changing your car oil as well? […]
Here again that's not my point.
As a matter of fact, I simply drive my car and have the oil changed when necessary (even if changing car oil is normal maintenance and has nothing to do with fixing built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam).
Your argument would imply you also yourself mend your clothes, resole your shoes and dispose of your septic tank sludge.

I'm not demonizing all the very fine DT members who make an amazing job bringing all that vintage stuff back to life.
In fact, I admire them and deeply envy them their skills.
But still, it takes that ill-conceived, poorly crafted and self-destructing crappy IBM stuff :mrgreen:
.
Spoiler:
I do enjoy this thread :mrgreen:

Anakey

04 Sep 2019, 15:31

well played kbdfr, can not argue as it would not be an 'unpopular' opinion

User avatar
depletedvespene

04 Sep 2019, 15:34

Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:31
well played kbdfr, can not argue as it would not be an 'unpopular' opinion
Sure, but opinions, unpopular or otherwise, need to be based on facts. And...

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zrrion

04 Sep 2019, 17:13

SKCC/SKCL should be reclassified as tactiles

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ZedTheMan

04 Sep 2019, 17:21

I would not do this, though they have a tactility to them inherent to the sensing design, I do not think they were originally created with the intent of said tactility. They noticed it and maintained it for future designs, though, and definitely realized they could use it for tactility with SKCM browns, but I don't think they can be classified as tactiles in design.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

04 Sep 2019, 18:12

depletedvespene wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:34
Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:31
well played kbdfr, can not argue as it would not be an 'unpopular' opinion
Sure, but opinions, unpopular or otherwise, need to be based on facts. And...
Well, would you argue the following are not IBM facts?
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
[…] built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam […]

User avatar
zrrion

04 Sep 2019, 19:39

ZedTheMan wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 17:21
I would not do this, though they have a tactility to them inherent to the sensing design, I do not think they were originally created with the intent of said tactility.
I think the actual operation is more important than anything else. It's just not accurate to classify them as linears.

User avatar
SneakyRobb

04 Sep 2019, 20:27

kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
Oh, and by the way:
SneakyRobb wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 20:34
[…] Do you shy from changing your car oil as well? […]
Here again that's not my point.
As a matter of fact, I simply drive my car and have the oil changed when necessary (even if changing car oil is normal maintenance and has nothing to do with fixing built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam).
Your argument would imply you also yourself mend your clothes, resole your shoes and dispose of your septic tank sludge.

I'm not demonizing all the very fine DT members who make an amazing job bringing all that vintage stuff back to life.
In fact, I admire them and deeply envy them their skills.
But still, it takes that ill-conceived, poorly crafted and self-destructing crappy IBM stuff :mrgreen:
.
Spoiler:
I do enjoy this thread :mrgreen:
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 08:19

Thank you for enforcing my point in your attempt to disprove it :mrgreen:

Ah well played. :mrgreen: I honestly think you are the most correct. I actually have been breaking down my model f's into metal needles to mend my clothes. :mrgreen: I even use the metal frames as snow shoes :ugeek:

I didn't realize I was arguing with a wizard of your caliber. Who could so easily see through my points. :mrgreen:

Anakey

04 Sep 2019, 22:11

kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 18:12
depletedvespene wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:34
Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:31
well played kbdfr, can not argue as it would not be an 'unpopular' opinion
Sure, but opinions, unpopular or otherwise, need to be based on facts. And...
Well, would you argue the following are not IBM facts?
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
[…] built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam […]
I would say the flaws are due to the passage of time rather then a built in flaw, had the boards not worked from day 1 when they were made then yes i would agree that it was a flaw. However i doubt that any manufacturer that makes any product keeps a unit in less then favourable storage conditions for 20-30 years just to see if anything fails due to the passage of time.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

04 Sep 2019, 23:03

Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 22:11
[…]
I would say the flaws are due to the passage of time rather then a built in flaw, had the boards not worked from day 1 when they were made then yes i would agree that it was a flaw. However i doubt that any manufacturer that makes any product keeps a unit in less then favourable storage conditions for 20-30 years just to see if anything fails due to the passage of time.
Oh come on, IBM should have been able to know the rivets would break or the foam would disintegrate without testing. After all, they have produced quite a lot of other stuff which did not break or fall apart, so it’s simply they misconceived their keyboards right from the start:
- They wanted them to be loud because they thought the normal user would otherwise miss the typewriter sound.
- They wanted them to have different row heights like a typewriter, but not different keycap profiles because of production costs, so they conceived the curved plate, but neglected the tensions between non-flat plastic and metal parts.

It’s as simple as that: IBM keyboards are crap, and that’s exactly what makes them interesting for all the DT keyboard experts.
Mind you, there’s no irony there. I sincerely admire the eagerness and skills put to work by all those fine people.

A shame Cherry made keyboards which are simply intact after 25 to 30 years :lol:

samuelcable

04 Sep 2019, 23:08

Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 22:11
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 18:12
depletedvespene wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:34


Sure, but opinions, unpopular or otherwise, need to be based on facts. And...
Well, would you argue the following are not IBM facts?
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
[…] built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam […]
I would say the flaws are due to the passage of time rather then a built in flaw, had the boards not worked from day 1 when they were made then yes i would agree that it was a flaw. However i doubt that any manufacturer that makes any product keeps a unit in less then favourable storage conditions for 20-30 years just to see if anything fails due to the passage of time.
Future-proofing should always be in the design process. using elements that are known to go bad is a design flaw, even if its not immediate.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

04 Sep 2019, 23:14

SneakyRobb wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 20:27
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
[…] Your argument would imply you also yourself mend your clothes, resole your shoes and dispose of your septic tank sludge. […]

Ah well played. :mrgreen: I honestly think you are the most correct. I actually have been breaking down my model f's into metal needles to mend my clothes. :mrgreen: I even use the metal frames as snow shoes :ugeek:

I didn't realize I was arguing with a wizard of your caliber. Who could so easily see through my points. :mrgreen:
[Bows down] My pleasure.
But what about your septic tank sludge? :lol:

User avatar
Chyros

04 Sep 2019, 23:40

kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 23:03
Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 22:11
[…]
I would say the flaws are due to the passage of time rather then a built in flaw, had the boards not worked from day 1 when they were made then yes i would agree that it was a flaw. However i doubt that any manufacturer that makes any product keeps a unit in less then favourable storage conditions for 20-30 years just to see if anything fails due to the passage of time.
Oh come on, IBM should have been able to know the rivets would break or the foam would disintegrate without testing. After all, they have produced quite a lot of other stuff which did not break or fall apart, so it’s simply they misconceived their keyboards right from the start:
- They wanted them to be loud because they thought the normal user would otherwise miss the typewriter sound.
- They wanted them to have different row heights like a typewriter, but not different keycap profiles because of production costs, so they conceived the curved plate, but neglected the tensions between non-flat plastic and metal parts.

It’s as simple as that: IBM keyboards are crap, and that’s exactly what makes them interesting for all the DT keyboard experts.
Mind you, there’s no irony there. I sincerely admire the eagerness and skills put to work by all that fine people.

A shame Cherry made keyboards which are simply intact after 25 to 30 years :lol:
I'm really not sure you're talking about IBM keyboards the same way I have seen them. I don't know how many IBM keyboards you've had, but I've owned about two dozen Model M keyboards; apart from one that was physically drowned (not something a Cherry board would've survived either, I can assure you), none of them malfunctioned. Even the drowned one, dead as it might've been, didn't feel scratchy, and that's DEFINITELY beyond the realm of Cherry. And we're talking about keyboards that I largely fished out of giant containers that've been sitting in English weather for a while, tossed about, sometimes with several TVs or other shite tossed on top of them.

And while Cherry boards are electronically (most certainly not physically, they did NOT come out of containers looking like they do in the brochures) fairly tough, order a couple dozen off of a Chinese recycler, and you'll see Cherry is no better than any of the brands you're so eager to bash – in fact, in plenty of cases, they're much, much worse. Again, I'm not sure how many you've seen come through sources like that. My experience with them is that you can't even tell whether it's supposed to be linear, tactile or clicky. You seem more than content to just focus on your one fancy Cherry board and not look at the bigger picture. I'd love to know what your background in them is, but my experience with >50 xth-hand G80s has really not been as good as yours appears to be. And the supposedly invulnerable G81s that some of your clique keep praising as invulnerable; yeah, I wish I still had that recycler batch of 40-odd of them. I kept the very best one, and even that one is so bad it'd make your fingers bleed just by looking at it. You know, after fishing the twigs and spider nests out of a Model M, it would generally really not be so bad as you're suggesting. Certainly not as bad as that G81!

Your point about getting IBMs restored being fun is partially true; I basically bolt-modded one of my Ms for fun, and re-foamed two F's for much the same reason. It was a fair bit of work, but worth it for the experience alone. Maybe one key wasn't as crisp or another, or something, and that's a good excuse to put yourself to do it. But it wasn't as much needed as a Cherry board in their condition would've needed it, and your point about old IBMs being crap because they're so hard to get working is frankly ludicrous.

In fact your favourite board, the Tipro, is so annoying to get working that I haven't reviewed one even though I've owned multiple for over FOUR YEARS. I took about five of them apart for just the switch tops (couldn't be arsed to desolder the whole switches, they weren't worth the effort) and a few fancy keycaps, because they weren't worth more than that to me – I tossed the rest. Nor would they be worth anything to anyone else; I don't see Tipros flying over eBay for many hundreds of dollars each the second they're posted!

User avatar
PlacaFromHell

05 Sep 2019, 00:57

kbdfr wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 08:16
PlacaFromHell wrote:
02 Sep 2019, 23:38
[…] Brioche bread fucking sucks.
Findecanor wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 00:56
Brioche is a pastry, not a bread. […]
Calling brioche "bread" is a common error.
Simply have a look at the wikipedia entry Qu'ils mangent de la brioche

""Let them eat cake" is the traditional translation of the French phrase "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche", supposedly spoken by "a great princess" upon learning that the peasants had no bread. Since brioche was a luxury bread enriched with butter and eggs, the quotation would reflect the princess's disregard for the peasants, or her poor understanding of their situation"

Brioche is definitely not bread, it is cake. It belongs to the viennoiseries.
So, when you eat a burger with brioche you are actually eating a paty inside a cake? :shock: Let me fix my unpopular opinion:
Brioche fucking sucks.

User avatar
depletedvespene

05 Sep 2019, 02:36

kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 18:12
depletedvespene wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:34
Anakey wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 15:31
well played kbdfr, can not argue as it would not be an 'unpopular' opinion
Sure, but opinions, unpopular or otherwise, need to be based on facts. And...
Well, would you argue the following are not IBM facts?
kbdfr wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 14:45
[…] built-in flaws like broken rivets or pulverized foam […]
"Made to last decades instead of centuries" doesn't really qualify as a "built-in flaw". And yet, the design of the Model F/M keyboards is so good that both "flaws", after manifesting themselves, can be corrected with a bit of work... and indeed are.

Contrast that to the innumerable Cherry keyboards that are scavenged for the specific purpose of cap harvesting (and switches, when they're MX)...

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

05 Sep 2019, 10:17

PlacaFromHell wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 00:57
kbdfr wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 08:16
[…] Brioche is definitely not bread, it is cake. It belongs to the viennoiseries.
So, when you eat a burger with brioche you are actually eating a paty inside a cake? :shock: Let me fix my unpopular opinion:
Brioche fucking sucks.
Eating a burger with brioche would be like eating a croissant with sausage. Just juck!

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

05 Sep 2019, 10:19

Calling IBM keyboards "crap" appears to be a highly unpopular opinion indeed :lol:

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Muirium
µ

05 Sep 2019, 10:20

Would you like it if we called MX the scratchy, steaming turd that it is?

As for brioche: love the stuff. We Europeans get some things right. Just not keyswitches!

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

05 Sep 2019, 10:31

Muirium wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 10:20
Would you like it if we called MX the scratchy, steaming turd that it is?
I wouldn’t object to that, even if I happen not to be affected.
Hey, some Cherry fans lube them, exactly like IBM fans repair their (ahem…) crappy stuff :lol:
As for brioche: love the stuff. We Europeans get some things right. […]
So Brits are Europeans nowadays? :lol:
Spoiler:
Nice thread indeed :mrgreen:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 Sep 2019, 10:41

No, you’re right. Brits loathe you cheese eating surrender monkeys with an otherworldly passion, which currently drives them to a wild, wailing reverie of self harm.

But that’s no concern to us Scots! Well, once we’re shot of them.

User avatar
vometia
irritant

08 Sep 2019, 12:42

kbdfr wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 10:31
So Brits are Europeans nowadays? :lol:
I'm quite happy to be any of European, British, English or Northumbrian as the mood takes me; and the mood is usually contrary.

Of course there's the "EU Question" which will likely never be resolved, but the EU doesn't have any more of a monopoly on Europeanness than the Conservative Party has on being a Briton.

And I'm still not sure I've found my perfect keyboard. I like the Model Ms, and I don't really care about the naysayers, whether they're "IBMs are crap" or "Model Fs/beam-springs are much better". I just with they had better keycaps.

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