Should some topics be visible to club members only?

[Halvar]

I agree with what ohaimark has written. I don't care a lot anymore because I don't buy as much any more, but a new thread in a members-only area seems to me like something we could try. Trying something is generally a good way to find out if something works and is needed...

For me, I would probably be more inclined to share finds in a closed thread, but if the usual deep searching posters like seebart and others prefer to continue posting in the open thread (which is their good right if they want to), then a closed thread does not make a whole lot of sense. That's best found out by trying it IMO.

As much as I agree with webwit's first paragraph, I think the main point is that we don't restrict and police what is done in the open forum. A separate forum that's only visible to club members is not much of a contradiction to that IMO.

The Van Gogh comparison is bs though. Transparent markets are not how the real world works at all. The best way to find interesting vintage keyboards is and has always been to put in more effort than others do, to find stuff that others didn't find. If we had a transparent market where the richest guy always wins, that would be really boring.

[Slom]

Your argument doesn't make much sense to me... What, exactly, are you trying to prove?

I just had to much of this pattern since yesterday evening:

Me: Please make your own hidden thread, and stop complaining
Somebody else: Why don't you want to pay/donate

You are a notable exception, sorry didn't want to offend you.

[ohaimark]

I wasn't offended, just confused. I'm still sort of hazy on what you mean, but that's fine.

[lot_lizard]

It's difficult to predict what the long term impact would be. Initially you would certainly have an increase in memberships as I'm sure hundreds of both registered and anonymous collectors have come to rely on "interesting finds" to build their collections. But after that initial influx, site popularity would likely drop as the public material truly becomes more of a reference. I value the wiki and icap workshop threads greatly, but I wouldn't consider myself an average "keyboard fan", and our passion needs all levels of user interest to continue to grow. I value as much participation and popularity of the site as possible since it is the way I truly learn. The "members only" tactics would benefit us (mine has been pending for several weeks), but ultimately is damaging to the site long term I think.

Requiring registration makes sense on some level though. Maybe the thread is visible publicly, but the URL's to external sites are hidden unless registered? And if you wanted to take that a step further, give club members the ability to further mask the the URL if they checked that option when posting. I myself would discourage, but a reasonable compromise. Maybe even leverage the eBay API (what most of those posts are) to show the auctions first picture if the URL is hidden.

I like the idea of club membership only benefits (some other way), but we want to encourage participation in our hobby as openly as possible. I personally feel it's what makes this community so special.

[XMIT]

This continues to come up. I continue to be against it. I have voted as such.

If we make this topic closed there is nothing we can do to prevent cross posting to GH or other sites. It also creates another paid guild for sharing finds.

Even if it raises prices and makes some of us miss out on good finds I am all for expanding the reach of this hobby and allowing others to jump in.

[ohaimark]

This continues to come up. I continue to be against it. I have voted as such.

I'm not surprised.

If we make this topic closed there is nothing we can do to prevent cross posting to GH or other sites. It also creates another paid guild for sharing finds.

Very true. I recognized this earlier when I said the honor system would be all that held it together.

Even if it raises prices and makes some of us miss out on good finds I am all for expanding the reach of this hobby and allowing others to jump in.

I admire your inclusive viewpoint, though I don't share it completely. I'd prefer to spend a bit to help the club and possibly save a bit on my keyboard purchases, even if it obscures information on great finds behind a pay barrier.

Not that I'm opposed to helping unpaid members find what they want. I just gave rootwyrm some information about a keyboard that he's after.

[seebart]

...but if the usual deep searching posters like seebart and others prefer to continue posting in the open thread (which is their good right if they want to), then a closed thread does not make a whole lot of sense. That's best found out by trying it IMO.

I have decided to refrain from posting any more links, not that it will make any difference. I think many of you are missing the point, no one is talking about deleting or censoring anything. There are club members here that would like a closed club member area for various purposes, and anyone can become a club member. It's not like it's an invite process or anything.

[Halvar]

Even if it raises prices and makes some of us miss out on good finds I am all for expanding the reach of this hobby and allowing others to jump in.

You're not expanding the reach of the hobby by making interesting stuff on ebay easier to find but more expensive, the opposite is true.

[shreebles]

Exactly. I wouldn't have got into the hobby, recently spending almost 250€ on a Whitefox recently, if it hadn't been possible to start much cheaper.

Five years ago I was doing some research online and was about to drop about 60 bucks on some "high quality" membrane keyboard when I found out that keyboards with real mechanical switches could be had for under 10€.

A couple of G80s later I got a used Model M on eBay that cost me 25€. I cleaned her up good and it works perfectly still, nowadays even stock Model Ms go for 50 or more!
It got even crazier when the Blue Alps bubble reached its peak a few months ago.

[Phenix]

like shreebles said - Its great to have the possibility to start with somewhat cheap models and get info/opinions/suggestions from the forum.

For the question: a club member area would be ok for me as I think it will be a worthful appeal to join the club.

I also need to thank shreebles personally because he showed me around (introduced me to) many different switches and helped as I was at the beginning of my journey -

[lot_lizard]

You're not expanding the reach of the hobby by making interesting stuff on ebay easier to find but more expensive, the opposite is true.

100% agree with this statement, and basically all the points those in favor of the idea are making regarding effects on cost. No question it has a negative impact on buyers (the degree is debatable, but I would think it is more than trivial).


My only caution would be that "interesting finds" is the primary reason many people even visit the site. To use myself as a use case, I would visit on occasion for several years to see what everyone is following lately. I would have never paid attention to Siemens, Fujitsu, or even Alps for that matter... Not without seeing your interest in them. It's a very clean way to quickly figure out what's going on (though I haven't ever bid or won anything that was previously posted there... at least I don't recall doing).

The point... After browsing finds, I would also check "Top Topics" and eventually noticed I$'s work. I am a social GHOST before joining this site. The only reason I joined was the fascination of trying out his prototypes. There is almost a 0% chance I would have stumbled onto his group buy initially if not for "interesting finds".

I have a feeling many of our registered users and club members have similar back stories. "Interesting Finds" is great advertising for the site. Moral... there is a trade-off between securing good deals for ourselves, and having bigger benefit long term. The less interesting the finds posted become, the less likely outsiders continue to visit. But... I like a good deal as much as the next guy, so I get it.

[chuckdee]

Perhaps, look at it a different way. What if we had a club member area for member-to-member sales or giveaways. I have a few things that I wouldn't mind parting with, but the current avenues for them don't really support doing things for a cause, nor getting them into community hands. You might get someone who really needs it or wants it, and wants to support the community... but more than likely not. I just think about it in terms of adding value, not coming across something and posting a link, and then restricting access to that information. Just my, hopefully coherent, opinion.

[seebart]

The only good thing I find about the "interesting finds" thread I can think of is that we see a lot of different keyboards, but a lot of repetition also. Many of you know I posted a lot of links there, in fact I think I posted more than I read in that particular thread. I never thought about the side effects until I looked at the hit numbers at some point. The real "value" of the thread itself is quite limited if ou ask me, anyone can find all those links anyway. We very rarely had really great finds. A lot of the best finds like jou's €10 Beamspring were missed and therefore stayed cheap. The "interesting finds" thread will continue anyway regardless of and if any changes are made. Nothing will be lost.

[zuglufttier]

I am not too active on this forum and my interest in keyboards fluctuates heavily depending on my mood, that's why I never became a member here My mood may change again in winter!

But on to the topic: I can see why some people would want a restricted area. In my opinion that would take away some or even most of the good things of this forum. I very much like its openness and the very liberal way of it. You can write about most stuff, offtopic is not really existent because you just write what you like. I never felt that anything get's censored or that I might write something offensive. In many forums I feel like that if I don't stay on topic.

But exactly that would happen then: Just imagine, someone is posting links in the open forum although there is a restricted area for this. What would happen? Will someone close that other thread? Will the links be deleted? Will every member that paid for a restricted area be fine with that? How are you going to deal with that? It might even happen, that "premium" member will insist on their paid right to get something deleted they don't want in the open forum.

I'd say: Leave it open, wait some time to let the keyboard hype come down a bit. The forum doesn't need more money from paid members to make it live. I'd surely donate some money if the forum had financial problems...

[shreebles]

No, the thread can continue to exist and to ruin every good eBay deal, found by anyone, ever.

I just hope that there will be an alternative, so that the people who have lost every desire to share anything in that thread can post the good stuff elsewhere. Just, anywhere it's not viewable, searchable, indexable by Google et. al. and unregistered users.

As for deleting threads, I know a circle of people who have the courtesy to remove a link they have found if it was an auction that you were watching and hoping to remain unnoticed. I've done that for others and others have done that for me.

It's not like a new problem would arise with that.

[scottc]

Maybe it'd help to hear my scenario and use case:
- I often find lots of interesting boards on Allegro.pl and other Polish sites
- I used to post them in the Great Finds thread
- But now every single interesting keyboard auction ends in some shitty sniper giving a ludicrously high bid, far higher than the real worth of the item
- I don't post anything in the Great Finds thread anymore because if by chance someone else has found it, I don't want to ruin it for them

A new, club-based Great Finds thread would help that, because I trust and respect that the club members will not be sneaky and shitty about things posted in such a hypothetical thread.

[Wodan]

I've tried staying away from the finds thread because it didn't help my compulsive buying behavior.
While i sometimes did contribute to it a little I was also a huge benefactor from the thread.

In quite a few cases I wanted to share my bidding/purchasing plans and maybe coordinate with friends. But since this would definitely be to my disadvantage as long as the thread is open, I just silently snipe stuff all the time.

In the end, give club members the liberty to create club-only topics. if some find joy in sharing exclusive and special deals in a circle wank conspiracy, feel free to judge. I can see myself enjoy my keyboard shopping experience a lot more with a group of friends rather than spitting deals out in a thread where you hardly ever get feedback or responses. Other than "aw already gone "

There are still 99% amazing, community breaking topics publicly available to anyone.

[lot_lizard]

How bad does this suck?

Add the option to delay public (or even registered) user viewing until a specified time, so the post would be masked until the auction was over. You would want a placeholder noting when it would become visible to the general public (versus just hiding) so they could know when to return if wondering what it was, and keeps the dialogue from being broken if the post received feedback from other members. The masked post also acts as a teaser to those lurking that they should join.

Eventually all the information becomes public, but paying members benefit and are more likely to post. Ultimately the content improves, and dialogue increases.

The downside (not sure how much of one it would be long term), the club becomes less of a "club of enthusiasts" as it get diluted by people that sign up solely for find access.

EDIT: unless you truly implement a "circle of specific friends" concept, you will never be able to avoid find lurking. The kind of people swiping the good deals that are posted (even if unregistered users), or driving up prices, are people with means that would have no issue paying the minimal dues to gain access. The exclusivity of the club will become non-existent quick. There is just no way to avoid it altogether (reduce yes) without restricting access to specific individuals.

[seebart]

OK those are some valid points lot_lizard, in other words what's the whole point? This is not about hiding links, it's not about some "circle of specific friends" who "deserve" something more than others. My main argument remains, we are a registered club with paying members, having a club only area for any kind of member to member communication is not far fetched. No one is excluded since anyone can become a member if that's even worth it to the person. We need to get away from the interesting finds thread subject because that will continue anyway. I know webwit and matt3o won't delete it and that's fine. I would, but for other reasons, I think it's one big mess by now. The way webwit and matt3o run DT there is no censorship and minimal deletion only if absolutely necessary or SPAM. It's imporant that it stays that way, this is not and will never be GH where threads are killed quickly from what I understand. What I see here is that many are really overreacting to this. If I really wanted a hidden seebart great finds list I could just PM select people my links, how fucking crazy would that be? And it would be silly because all those links are out there anyhow, apart from the fact that it would be pretty dickish to do at all.

[XMIT]

High pricing aside, I think it's great that the keyboard hobby is becoming so active that we're talking about restricting our finds.

Many of the keyboards that we find and fight over are coming from recycling facilities. These are items that would otherwise be trash or destroyed. Having seen some of these recycling facilities first hand it's really awe inspiring just how much stuff there is.

Restricted or not, the Great Finds thread help recycle items. This is a noble effort.

As far as pricing is concerned: it's up to the market to set pricing, sure, but it's also a seller's choice to determine what the final price would be. As a seller, I try to offer preferential pricing and treatment for club members, and for non-members who are a good part of the community.

The fact is, that we're all going for items that are in short supply. Me personally, I'm hunting less as I feel my own collection is just about complete, or at least, that my period of heavy acquisition is nearly over. Some of the very best items I've encountered have either been free or under 20 USD local finds, or trades.

So it really doesn't make a difference to me if the Finds thread is closed or not. I don't think it should be since all other things being equal I want more people to have access to good keyboards, want more people to be excited about them, and want to grow the community. As a club member I would benefit from the thread being closed and I'm still arguing against it.

[Slom]

I find this the equivalent of "security by obscurity", anyway if club members want a section where they can talk between them, I'm not against it. It would be like having a private IRC channel.

Let me know what you think club-discussions-votes-f41/should-we-ha ... 14274.html

In case you make this change, you might consider changing the donation-page accordingly. It currently says stuff like:

"Deskthority is a non-profit collection of keyboard enthusiasts, so all is payed for by the community and everything is returned to the community in the end, such as the hosting and availability of our website."

[matt3o]

it's still a service to the community. I see no big issues here, but sure we'll fix the semantic if needed.

[Findecanor]

Many of the keyboards that we find and fight over are coming from recycling facilities.

Good point.

[chuckdee]

it's still a service to the community. I see no big issues here, but sure we'll fix the semantic if needed.

Agreed. It's still a service as you say. that has no implication that the whole site nor all features are open.

Many of the keyboards that we find and fight over are coming from recycling facilities.

Emotions are highest when the stakes are low.

[tentator]

Lol 50% on this thread 90% on the elitist thread
So still after brexit it seems not cleat how antidemocratic referendums can be? Rotfl!

[Slom]

Lol 50% on this thread 90% on the elitist thread
So still after brexit it seems not cleat how antidemocratic referendums can be? Rotfl!

Well its two completely different questions.

[Wodan]

Seems like the votes point into one direction ...

There is a strong lobby, majority of the VOTES, that would like to have a club member only section for club activities such as sharing the really really good deals and maybe a little bid coordination. Judge all you want but most people who frown upon this got their keyboards in a time where beamsprings sold for 20€ and OG Cherry Doubleshots were 20€-30€

If we offer such a section, this thread would also greatly tip against making the existing Finds thread private.

So a club members section would solve this draw here and also correspond with the vote in the other thread. The public Finds thread will probably be more about great finds with larger quantities or more common items. After all I think two finds threads can exist in parallel.

[kbdfr]

Seems like the votes point into one direction ...

There is a strong lobby, majority of the VOTES, that would like to have a club member only section for club activities such as sharing the really really good deals and maybe a little bid coordination. Judge all you want but most people who frown upon this got their keyboards in a time where beamsprings sold for 20€ and OG Cherry Doubleshots were 20€-30€

If we offer such a section, this thread would also greatly tip against making the existing Finds thread private.

So a club members section would solve this draw here and also correspond with the vote in the other thread. The public Finds thread will probably be more about great finds with larger quantities or more common items. After all I think two finds threads can exist in parallel.

I think that's exactly the point
(except where Wodan seems to assert that the old-time cheapos are against such a restricted area - I am one of those who used to pay 1-10€ for keyboards at a time where nobody else was interested in them )

[Slom]

I really hope you call the whole section "elitist scumbag circle-jerk".

[seebart]

I really hope you call the whole section "elitist scumbag circle-jerk".

We then also need another section for "overemotional paranoid retarded noob shit".